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SteveDallas 05-05-2003 11:45 AM

Valedictorian-to-be sues
 
OK, check out this story and then share your thoughts... but...... this is going to be hard...

I want you to ignore the lawsuit. Just forget it exists.

Why?

Because commentary on this story has essentially boiled down to, "oh, spoiled brat judge's daughter, something goes wrong and she files a lawsuit. Whine whine whine what a crybaby."

I'd like to leave aside the issue of whether a lawsuit is a good or appropriate way to deal with this situation (I would submit that it's not--for several reasons, one being exactly this unsympathetic press coverage), and examine the issue of whether this girl has a beef. Is there actually something wrong with the school naming a co-valedictorian? Why or why not?

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/5765325.htm

Cam 05-05-2003 11:49 AM

If it's true that the other seniors could not achieve the same weighted grades then I think the school is in the right. But if the other students had the ability to achieve the same weighted grade average then the girl has the right to the top honor.

dave 05-05-2003 12:16 PM

We had this issue back at my school.

I'm sorry, but she's not subject to the same classes, so therefore regular students are not at liberty to have such an "easy" schedule, so therefore the school is in the right by declaring co-valedictorians. I'd go further and say that she is lucky that they even consider her, seeing as she is not subject to classes that other students are required to participate in. It kind of weakens the honor that the regular students get, you know?

Now, as far as the lawsuit... I hope she loses in court, and I believe that she will. $200,000 in compensatory damages? $2.5 million in punitive? What, is she intent on destroying education? Like teachers don't need that money more? And where exactly did she get these numbers?

Here's to you catching a very nasty cold, Ms. Bitch.

Whit 05-05-2003 01:46 PM

Quote:

Hornstine's lawyer said yesterday that his client has been accepted to Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Duke and Cornell Universities but has not yet decided which she will attend.
     Wait, she can't make it through a day of high school yet she's going to one of these schools? What is the importance of this anyway? Could no one else from her school get in? If so that information isn't provided, only suggested. They keep telling us this girl is smart, well we knew that. Where's the info on the other guys?
     What's more, I think this lawsuit shows exactly what type of lawyer she intends to be.
     Also, I think that since she didn't do the full schedule the Principle was within his rights to take that into account. It sucks she has this health problem, but I had friends that got all A's and had to work after school. I can't really feel that bad for her. The sad part is that had she accepted it magnanimously I'd have had a lot of respect for her. The lawsuit scraps that.

wolf 05-05-2003 01:59 PM

Smerconish did a segment on this story the other day ...

My high school (after my graduation) had a similar issue ... a regular full-time student took additional 'independent study' classes and beefed up his GPA sufficiently to edge past the person who had been #1 in that class essentially from grade school. I believe the district eventually disallowed the grades from the independent study classes to be considered for graduation honors but did include them in the overall gpa for college consideration.

They were saying on the radio that the "immune disorder" was chronic fatigue syndrome ... which is newspeak for "too lazy to get out of bed but has a doctor's note".

She had an unfair advantage over her classmates and should not, IMHO, be valedictorian.

What would the district do if a kid who was totally (instead of half) homeschooled qualified for valedictory honors? I don't think we'd be even having this discussion.

russotto 05-05-2003 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolf
Smerconish did a segment on this story the other day ...
Which side is he on? That counts as at least 10 points towards the other side :-).

They were saying on the radio that the "immune disorder" was chronic fatigue syndrome ... which is newspeak for "too lazy to get out of bed but has a doctor's note".

Isn't that usually accompanied by weight gain, though?

verbatim 05-05-2003 04:14 PM

I say they just give her a zero for gym then re-calculate the grade standings. After all, she didnt take gym, so she earned no credit in it.

But now that she did file a lawsuit, I think they should just give it straight to the other kid(s). It is the school's decision to declare a valedictorian, not the court's.

That Guy 05-05-2003 04:15 PM

It's not like any of it matters anyway.

When I graduated, our VD received a full scholarship to UT. Sometime during her first year, she had met a busboy at a local greasy-spoon in Corpus (where we went to HS), two years her junior. He was still in school.
Sometime during the summer after our freshamn year in college, she and this dirtbag were our cruising around near the beach. A cop started following them (curious to see what they were doing out late in the area), but because they had beer in the car, and nobody was of age at the time, they decided to flee. Since she had some type of Geo at the time, the cop had no trouble keeping up in his Caprice cruiser with the LS/1. Somehow, she mistook a boat ramp for a driveway, and ended up plunging the car into a canal. She and her boyfriend were okay. His younger friend in the backseat wsan't. From the story I heard, he was unable to push the passenger seat forward and climb out (let's hear it for coupe safety). Negligence charges wer dropped against her, and the last time we spoke, she had not gone back to school.

Being the "slacker" and "goof-off surfer dude" that I am, I would say that my success thus far has measured up a little better, albeit cicumstances of luck and judgement. So a big THBBBT to all those teachers that told me to try harder in school if I wanted to do anything in life. And screw the ruling-class in school, because they just make the rest of us look bad.

warch 05-05-2003 04:37 PM

Speaking as an educator...Scrap the whole valedictorian thing, scrap the drinking age. The school board should buy every kid who is still alive at the age of 18 a beer.

xoxoxoBruce 05-05-2003 05:20 PM

Kadri has a valid point.
Since she's been accepted to college and can claim valedictorian on her resume (co, schmo, who'll know) she's just being a c*nt.
She'll do the legal profession proud.

Radar 05-05-2003 06:28 PM

She doesn't deserve to be valedictorian if she's not held to 100% of the same standards as the other students. I'm with verbatim on this. She should be given a zero for gym and even held back until she finishes it. She's one nasty bitch because it's not enough that she gets the title, but nobody else can share it. My school had two valedictorians with equal GPA's. I hope she not only gets her case thrown out of court, but she's forced to pay court costs and fined for a frivilous law-suit and the schools that accepted her witdraw their offers in light of her poor behavior.

Griff 05-05-2003 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce

She'll do the legal profession proud.

Yep. She's their kinda people. Some people never figure out what to do for a living, this dirtbag was born to it.

SteveDallas 05-05-2003 08:22 PM

Man, you guys are vicious! Keep it up, but keep in mind the original assignment. (I'll throw in my opinion later when I have time to type it out. Those who know me can probably predict where I'll come down.)

xoxoxoBruce 05-05-2003 08:41 PM

Quote:

Kadri has a valid point.
I covered the asignment.

She's still a c*nt:p

Radar 05-05-2003 09:01 PM

Quote:

examine the issue of whether this girl has a beef. Is there actually something wrong with the school naming a co-valedictorian? Why or why not?
She absolutely does not have a valid beef. She didn't earn the valedictorian title based on the same requirements and merits as the other students. She has no claim to the title at all. I think the school is being kind to allow her to share it with someone else.

:mad:

She's got the old "It's not enough that I win; everyone else must lose" attitude and it makes me sick.

Cam 05-05-2003 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radar



She's got the old "It's not enough that I win; everyone else must lose" attitude and it makes me sick.

That's exactly the way it is. God forbid someone might be just as smart as you.

Really though, if she has straight A's and has been excepted to the top schools it's not like her future employers are going to frown on the fact that she was co-valedictorian, all that means is she had someone in her class that was just as smart, nothing wrong with that.

elSicomoro 05-05-2003 10:00 PM

My independent study classes were not counted as part of my GPA in high school...only as high school credits.

I don't think the girl has a beef. It appears that the school district treated her fairly in respect to the ADA, and other students should not be punished b/c of her disability (which is how this comes across to me).

SteveDallas 05-06-2003 04:43 PM

You've all done an admirable job piling on. I'm not going to say she doesn't deserve it. The number one reason to not file a lawsuit in a situation like this is precisely to avoid negative reaction. I'm not going to reiterate all the reasons to consider her a whiny ingrate; everybody else has done a great job at that and I actually agree with most of what has been said (without endorsing the more blunt epithets).

But let's look at a few more things that incline me to think that the school has behaved badly--in addition to, not instead of, Hornstine.

First of all, many comments have said something to the effect that "she doesn't deserve to be valedictorian." Well NOBODY deserves to be valedictorian. There is generally a RULE which dictates how the valedictorian is chosen. And in the case of the Moorestown School District, this rule is very simple: "The senior student with the highest seventh semester WGPA will be named the valedictorian." It doesn't say ANYTHING about exceptions, or co-valedictorians, or anything. The WGPA is the *weighted* grade point average and is supposed to take course difficulty into account. (You get 4.0 for an A or 4.3 for A+ in a "standard" course; 4.5 or 4.8 for an "honors" course; and 5.0 or 5.3 in an "AP" course.) Is it too much to ask for the school district to follow its own rules?

Of course we all know this effort to codify and standardize course difficulty is ridiculous. Maybe AP European History is harder than AP Calculus. Tough, you just get a 5.0 for an A in either case. Is that fair? Let's go to Superintendent Kadri:

"The superintendent said two other seniors with near-perfect grades could not have earned high enough weighted grades to surpass Hornstine because they are 'subject to the rigorous in-school grading standards employed by certain advanced placement teachers.'" Wait--you're telling me some teachers grade harder than others?? Stop the presses! If I lived in Moorestown I'd immediately be on the phone to Kadri to ask him for the names of those "certain advanced placement teachers" so I could put my kids in the AP courses without the rigorous instructors.

The only way this matters is if somebody decided that the courses Hornstine did at home were worth AP credit. If not, if they're just standard courses, then Hornstine can get the same points for getting an A in this course that another student can get for a B in an AP course. Clearly Hornstine got AP credit for the courses or her WGPA wouldn't be higher than everybody else's. So, who decided it was OK for her courses to get AP credit? I'm guessing the principal, if not the superintendent himself, signed off on it. Now, you might argue whether this was a good decision or not. I personally think it probably wasn't, but I don't really care because I think the whole grading and handicapping of children's academic performance is ridiculous either way. But at any rate, somebody decided they should count those courses as APs for Hornstine when they did her WGPA.

Oh yeah, Kadri... poor guy, my heart goes out to him. I know he's having a bad month. Who put him up to this? I dare say at any school there are probably no more than a dozen students at the outside in each class who are in any danger of being valedictorian, and it's probably usually MUCH smaller. In this case, there seem to be two others besides Hornstine. I'm pretty sure that a student sitting there with a 3.7 average probably doesn't care a whole lot whether the student with the 5.19 or the student with the 5.13 gets it, unless he happens to be friends with the student. Until Hornstine screwed up by filing a lawsuit, nobody really cared... except Hornstine, the other two students, and their families and friends. I guarantee you, somebody connected with one of those other two students complained to Kadri and lit a fire under him. (And they had the brains to do it without involving any lawyers--tho I wouldn't be surprised if there were veiled threats of lawyers.) I bet there are some teachers involved too. Why wouldn't there be? It's probably a safe bet that there is some desire on the part of at least some teachers to punish Hornstine for not being in class enough.

So, here's what I think should happen.
  • The idea of a "co-valedictorian" is ludicrous except in the situation where there is an actual tie. The valedictorian is the one with the highest WGPA, period. If that's Hornstine, fine. If not, fine. (If they decided that some of the courses Hornstine did shouldn't qualify as AP courses, pulling her WGPA down and making her non-valedictorian, well, those are the breaks. I personally think it smacks of changing the rules in the middle of the game, after finding out that the winner was somebody unacceptable--unless, indeed, there was some clerical error, in which case we wouldn't be having this discussion. But I find that more palatable than appointing two valedictorians with different WGPAs.)
  • The school board needs to clarify exactly what the policy is for determining which courses qualify for Honors or AP credit. If they want to, they can put in a rule that specifies that nobody whose course of study includes independent studies or Independent Educational Plans can be considered for valedictorian. Or they can make a rule that such courses are never eligible for extra points for WGPA purposes. But make a rule and stick to it.
  • The school district and its lawyers need to be very VERY careful about what they're saying. They're awfully close to, on the one hand, saying that Hornstine was just given her grades for no performance or at least performance not commensurate with the grades, which speaks extremely poorly for academic standards in the district. And on the other hand, saying that you can get a more rigorous course of study (i.e. more AP courses) through home study than you can by going to school. I'm not saying they've said either one of these things, but they've come awfully close. I'm sure the Suprintendent, the School Board, and the Teacher's Union certainly don't believe they're true.

Finally, you can't have it both ways: If you think "Hornstine shouldn't mind sharing the honors," then the honors weren't worth much to start with, and it shouldn't be a big deal if somebody else doesn't get them. If you think being the valedictorian is valuable and a great achievement, then you have to acknowledge that its value is due to its singularity. Hell, why not have 5 or 6 co-valedictorians? I'm sure there are plenty of smart kids in Moorestown. We can dump on Hornstine all we want for the way she's handling this, but if you think it's a signal honor to be valedictorian, then you can't say she ought to be happy to share it.

Having said that, I don't think it makes a damn bit of practical difference to anybody. You think Harvard has trouble getting applications from valedictorians around the country? Contrariwise do they populate their entire student body with valedictorians? Please. The fact that she has all her college acceptances in her pocket and will keep them whether she's valedictorian or not (as several people have rightly pointed out) just shows how worthless the title is. This whole thing reminds me of when my kids fight over who gets to eat dinner with the "special" fork. Except in that case the kids have decided between themselves that one fork is, for no reason apparent to the grownups, "special," and they are fighting over it while the grownups tell them to stop being ridiculous. In the case of the valedictorian story, the fork has been fabricated and supplied by the adults and the children have been encouraged to fight for it. My favorite response thus far was from warch: "Scrap the whole valedictorian thing, scrap the drinking age. The school board should buy every kid who is still alive at the age of 18 a beer."

So what should Hornstine have done? Very simple. She should have issued this statement, which I would have been happy to write for her before it became too late:

"I understand that some people on the school board are concerned about comparing apples to oranges with my IEP and the standard curriculum in the determination of valedictorian and that there is talk of having a co-valedictorian. I strenuously object to such a solution because I feel that there should be only one valedictorian. If the school board feels that the fabulous educational experiences I have had at Moorestown High do not suit me for competition for valedictorian, then I think their proper course of action is to appoint another student rather than have an embarassing charade of "co-valedictorians." I prefer rather to affirm the words of the school district's grading policy: 'The academic environment in Moorestown High School is very challenging. The majority of our students meet that challenge by earning exemplary grades. The comparisons among students inherent in rank-in-class calculation unnecessarily increases competition within the school. Further, we believe that our students’ levels of achievement are not equitably or fully communicated by this single figure transcript statistic. Therefore, Moorestown High School no longer reports class rank.' I thank all the teachers here for their help over the last four years, and I wish my fellow graduates of the class of 2003 every success."

She might have lost the valedictorianship with this gambit, but she would have made it impossible for any other student to get it without a mental asterisk by their name, and most importantly, she would have made the school board look less mature than she is instead of having everybody complaining that she's a crybaby.

xoxoxoBruce 05-06-2003 05:05 PM

NO! They should duct tape the co-valedictorians left wrists together and let them fight it out with knives.

elSicomoro 05-06-2003 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
NO! They should duct tape the co-valedictorians left wrists together and let them fight it out with knives.
That wouldn't work...remember, the girl has CFS.

SteveDallas 05-06-2003 06:42 PM

I guess it'd be a short fight.

xoxoxoBruce 05-06-2003 07:59 PM

I didn't forget.:D

elSicomoro 07-11-2003 10:12 PM

If the allegations are true, karma is a son-of-a-bitch.

(LATE EDIT: The article moved)

SteveDallas 07-11-2003 10:36 PM

Yowzer! And probably nobody would have noticed if they hadn't filed a lawsuit. Wonder what her backup school was?

xoxoxoBruce 07-11-2003 10:41 PM

Heh, heh, heh. There is a God.;)

wolf 07-12-2003 12:38 AM

If this all turns out to be true, particularly if any evidence of plagarism is uncovered in her high school work, Miss "I didn't know I had to credit stuff I used in the newspaper articles too" won't be gaining admission to Camden County Community College any time soon, either ...

OnyxCougar 07-12-2003 12:56 AM

If it turns out that she plagarized more than her newspaper articles, could they yoink valedictorian away from her?

SteveDallas 07-12-2003 08:42 AM

Probably so. I just hope if they're going to do it they go after all the plagiarists. I guarantee you she's not the only one in Harvard's entering freshman class, and she's not the only one in the Moorestown High graduating class.

elSicomoro 07-12-2003 09:15 AM

This is the cover of this morning's Philadelphia Daily News:

http://msdelta.net/~sycamore/cellar/blair.jpg

Onyx, I'd say yeah. The school district has already said they're going to review her school work. However, since the valedictorian issue originally wound up in court, it seems likely that it would wind up there again, should the school strip her of the title.

The others schools she was accepted to are Stanford, Cornell, Princeton, and Duke (according to the original article Steve posted). But according to this newer article, it may be too late for her to go to any of those now.

And as far as the scrutiny...you seemed to side with her initial argument, Steve, but you have to admit that she brought this on herself. She took the risk by taking this whole thing to court, and she knew there could be adverse consequences as a result. Dem's the breaks.

dave 07-12-2003 05:51 PM

Heh. She deserves what she gets.

SteveDallas 07-12-2003 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore
And as far as the scrutiny...you seemed to side with her initial argument, Steve, but you have to admit that she brought this on herself. She took the risk by taking this whole thing to court, and she knew there could be adverse consequences as a result. Dem's the breaks.
I thought the school erred in essentially trying to change the rules in the middle of the game--and I seem to be the only one who thought so apart from the judge who ruled against the school district.

I also thought it was a big mistake to bring a lawsuit for many reasons, not the least of which was unsympathetic publicity. But while I thought she had an argument on the valedictorian issue (even if I thought they handled it in a rotten way), I don't have a shred of sympathy on the plagiarism issue. And while I'm surprised Harvard tossed her out, they're within their rights, and again, they probably wouldn't if the lawsuit hadn't attracted so much attention.

By the way, between this incident and all these reporters lately, I'm looking forward to a nice period of outing plagiarists. If anybody would like to start picking this one apart, go for it.

xoxoxoBruce 07-13-2003 02:11 AM

Quote:

Your Jackson Library Online Catalog session has expired.
Can't.:(

elSicomoro 07-13-2003 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveDallas
I thought the school erred in essentially trying to change the rules in the middle of the game--and I seem to be the only one who thought so apart from the judge who ruled against the school district.
We're now going to go back and review your work for plagiarism. :)

SteveDallas 07-13-2003 08:23 PM

Go for it!! I can't be blamed if the library catalog won't keep a persistent link to my worthless thesis.

Undertoad 07-13-2003 08:51 PM

Dude, we can't because Your Jackson Library Online Catalog session has expired.


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