Taking the kids to the bar
 

So, what are your thoughts about two moms that decide to meet up one evening, say 7 ish, and go to a bar to hear some live music because they know a couple of the musicians. One of the moms frequents this bar.

The bar has no food apart from sometimes having pretzels.

Oh, yeah, they each have their two kids along because this is their custody night:
a 4 year old, two seven year olds, an 11 their* 11 year old pal.

*to mask gender although I hate the use of it.

For me it really depends on the atmosphere of the bar, and there's no good set of descriptive rules that I can come up with. It's like obscenity; I know it when I see it.

That being said, though, I would probably take issue with a 4-year-old being out anywhere past 9:00, but that's just me.

A lot of places that would be illegal, and I can't imagine the management being happy about it anywhere. But if one of the women is a regular and they're both friends of the band, the management might be more understanding.

It will be too loud for the youngsters. Young ears are damaged by high volumes. The atmosphere and booze are no problem.

The musicians are probably a good role model in every way.*







*this is the part where i was being ironic, not the other parts

It's a dive bar that is trying to attract a hipper crowd while not alienating the their main customer base who are cheap beer drinking DWI having, done some time for running over a cop being folks. There's a pool table, and primarily professional drinkers.

Well the good thing about this situation is, it's unlikely to result in kids number 5 and/or 6, at least on this one night. Because nothing will kill boners, even musician boners, faster than having someone else's ankle-biters around. I don't know this from experience, mind you. Some things you just know.

And the bad thing about this situation is, everything else. Let's not even start with the bar. Let's start with this is their custody night. In most jurisdictions, the mom winds up with custody, and the dad winds up with custody night. As evolved as we may be, that's just how it is, in most jurisdictions AND in most circumstances. If mom doesn't have custody that is already a very bad sign for mom. Something isn't working out for her, or hasn't worked out to the point where it could be brought up in court.

But you are telling us that two moms have wound up with only custody night. And they have gotten together, and worked it out, so that they get the same night. BFFs!

The correct answer here is, the dads should be notified that custody night destination is the bar. That way it can become a part of the next hearing, and a real adult can try and make a decision on all these childrens' behalf.

What he said. I sympathise in some ways with the mums but they have other nights to go to bars and hang out with musicians. Priorities, folks, priorities.

It's the lateness of the hour on what is presumably a school night which would bother me.
Children need routine and rules, and to do this for no other reason than a custody night happens to fall on the same night that your friends are playing... well - children should come first.

If it was that big of a deal, then they should have negotiated a change of custody night.

When we went on holiday we'd be out way past our bedtime, and usually in places that served alcohol/ played music/ had other patrons who didn't have a reasonable understanding of general etiquette (I learned quite a few swear words hearing Scouse Mums talk to their kids when we went on holiday). Even then it wasn't every night, because my parents couldn't afford it every night.

And when our Uncles came down from London we would always go out for an evening in Dad's work social club, where children were allowed, but yes it had its fair share of semi-professional drinkers (they must have had jobs at the firm in order to be members). But again, it was understood that this was the exception not the norm and would only ever have occurred over the weekend.

I'm not the best example of a kid exposed early to alcohol turning out perfectly fine, but my sister (normal, casual drinker) and my brother (teetotal) show that it was nature, not nurture.

I suppose that the bottom line is that even if the mothers are being irresponsible, at least they're not leaving the kids alone at home under the dubious care of the 11 year old.

Maybe the kids like the music?

My nieces both spent a good amount of their early childhood at music festivals and live music events. Where adults were generally drinking (at a minimum).

but not dive bars - the worst of that kind of place they might have gone to would be the Trades Club in Heb - but there were quite often youngsters about for events there.

The most worrying things to my mind about the two women at the bar with their kids are: first the noise levels - outdoor festivals don't slam the ears quite like a small, indoor set - and second the 'custody night' issue. If you have your kids for a night, how are they not your sole focus that night? I wouldn't want to be out with friends watching music - We'd be snuggled up at home watching a DVD together.

Are the two moms bringing the children along as a responsibility crutch because that's the only way the moms can stay on good behavior at a bar?

Are the moms using the children to antagonize the dads?

Are the moms aware that hearing loss from exposure to high sound levels is cumulative and not reversible?

Were the moms consuming alcohol, both moms or was there a designated chaperone to deal with the possibility of inebriated problem patrons? It wasn't stated in the opening post. Was that intentional?

What are your thoughts on someone who raises these questions in people's minds.

Some clarifications:

In more progressive states the courts are seeing 50-50 joint custody as being in the best interests of the kids. That is what the situation is here. Yes, school night. Out of the bar by 8:00pm approx. One of the moms has her kids almost all the time (separated recently) Neither is dating or hanging out w/ the musicians, they are all part of a larger social group.
supposedly one mom was drinking NA beer. tow kids were left to play pool, the youngest were at with the parents at a table near the loud music. (It was bluegrass so probably not deafeningly loud, but still indoors and loud)

AFAIK the goal isn't antagonism as one dad at any rate just found out about this recently, though it happened last month.

The moms should know about hearing loss and noise.

At least one mom was consuming alcohol.

The kids were bored to tears, one mom claims she wanted to expose the kids to music, a worthy idea but this is not a music festival and there were no other kids there.

These two moms were likely using this as an excuse to get together and do whatever it is they do when they get together. They are pretty much best buds bonding over broken marriages and alliteration. It seems to me that their priority on this evening was hanging out over responsibilities with the kids.

As for the kind of person who raises these questions in people's minds, I'd say that his initial query was lacking in what turned out to be important details.

I'd think the biggest problem in this scenario is thinking that a bar (any bar, however tony- upscale not subtoad- is an ok place to take kids short of escaping imminent peril.

The thing is, around here there is a very wide and nuanced spectrum of what some people might call a "bar." Live music events are at full saturation in my city, and alcohol is served at most of them, but within those parameters there are places which are downright kid-friendly, all the way to seedy dive bars where no human being ought to go, let alone children.

But based on the later description of the bar in question, hell-fucking-no.

Wull,

Having spent a good deal of time in drinking establishments at a young age, the location doesn't really matter TOO much. It's not like you learn to be an alcoholic by watching other alcoholics when you're young. Bar, restaurant, library, it's all roughly the same experience to a four-year-old, except for the volume. One could get away with it if the "general" behavior in the bar is OK.

It's that the protective instincts of the moms that did not kick in, and did not kick in together, that is actually the worrisome part. "We are going to take these children to see men we would like to get it on with, in an unpredictable setting where things could go horribly wrong," is the worrisome part. Not "we get with the men and then wait six weeks to determine that they are fine upstanding individuals (twelve weeks if one is a drummer) before introducing the young ones to them by taking them to a neutral location first, then next week to the bar if everything goes well".

@cf
this is a bar for drinking that occasionally has live music as opposed to a music venue that serves alcohol.

@toad
They weren't there for the musicians, they both have guys that they are into, this was most likely a time for them to hang out together and rather than do it at a place that put the kids first, eg mini golf, chucky cheese, pixar film, playground, they opted for a place that appealed to them and the kids were collateral appendages.

Ah see I'm always reading the musicians into their pants. My confusion.

Who would willingly take a child to such a place? Why would anyone willingly take a child to a bar? I might understand the bar section of Applebee's, but, not a stand alone bar.

You have to be eighteen to get in a bar here. Hardly ever an issue, though, because no one brings their children to the bar.

Bite the responsibility bullet, and go to Chuck E. Cheese instead.

I want to be charitable towards the moms, but I'm finding it hard to come up with anything redeeming about this situation. everyone else said it

Are they any good at it? Were they making money hustling drunks? That would be a game changer.

I don't know. Some couple brought their INFANT baby to see Insidious Ch. 3 today, early showing. The baby behaved better than the whispering couple who seemed to use a lot of words containing the 'ssssss' sound, during their very important discourse. They did stfu after I asked them, nicely, to quit talking.

Really, an infant.

The 3rd installment of this series was good. The first two were so-so. Great jump scares and a decent couple of backstories. It even played on my heartstrings a little.

As opposed to being on somebody's back porch with the kids playing in the yard or the kiddie pool, and both of them drinking alcohol... which happens frequently in every town.

And five times is not 40 plus a donkey!

I swear I replied again to this thread ten mins ago but.....

At least bars aren't smoky anymore. Well not here, any way. Are they still in other places?


And then it occurred to me that when anon said "at least one mom was drinking alcohol", maybe he meant that as a redeeming factor rather than a criticism? ;) :D

(because parenting is really only possible with a little help)

It was meant as a chicken little tactic.

Not sure that is a fair comparison. At a bar you can't control what everyone around you is talking about, pawing each other, slurring and staggering, saying inappropriate things and so on. I don't think it's great for kids to be around drunks either at home or abroad. But if the back proch is anything like a dive bar then CPS should probably pay a visit.

Amen. I need a top up.

I was addressing the fact that one of them was drinking alcohol is neither unusual and likely irrelevant. You are translating drinking alcohol into drunk, which is not a given. You are also throwing in pawing, slurring, and staggering at 7 to 8 PM, which is not a given either. While I think the kids shouldn't be there, everyone seems to be projecting the worst dive bar scenario they can think of.

Ahh. good point.

You mean like since there was bluegrass music, there must've been banjos? :eek:

Not at all, not that banjos is a bad thing.

There were no banjos, anon said they were musicians.

Steve Martin's gonna kick your ass.

Then my ass will be kicked by an outstanding actor, writer and comic!

Smoky bars are still a thing here in good ol' KY. Just about the only place smokers can smoke, besides home, and the car...

I think it depends on the venue. Our local pub is very family oriented. Being a small town, a lot of the local community events are hosted there, like fishing club socials and weigh ins, special holidays like Australia and Anzac day. They put on jumping castles etc for the kids, and mostly everyone with kids hangs outside where there's a fenced playground for the kids. Yes there's drinking, and some people get shitfaced, but mostly it's a family environment and kids are welcome. There's a restaurant there too, and we sometimes go there on the weekend, but I wouldn't want my little ones in the public bar on a Friday night after 8.30 pm or so. I don't want anyone else's little kids in there running amok either. Pubs at night time are really no place for kids after dinner hour is over imo.

IAW anon, the children were taken to the bar to listen to bluegrass music. You don't say anything about there being bluegrass music at your venue. Are your community's children being neglected? :eyebrow:

In Australia, blue grass is probably poisonous.

Blue grass is usually referring to cooch grass. Haha
Plenty of country music fans in this town too btw. Often the entertainment is country music in one form or another. I don't really care what kind of music it is. As long as it's good, and as long as it's joyful. Nothing worse than a live act that looks dead.

I'm a little late to this thread, but my wife and I have taken our kids to bars to listen to music on a few occasions. We've taken them to see their uncle's band a few times, and also to see one or two other bands that we have been following. Really fun music that is for all ages, but our kids were the youngest ones there. We've been generally well received. My daughter was invited on stage to dance at one of her uncle's shows. And at another band's show, I brought my son up close to the band to watch and dance, and the other patrons were smiling and nodding to us.

We generally only go to early shows that start at 7 or 8 and we leave around 9-10. We bring wax ear plugs for them. We don't drink in the bar ourselves. The focus is absolutely the music and we interact only with one another, not with the other patrons. If the situation got a little out of control with others, we would leave. I think we didn't ever do this before they were 8 or 9 years old or so. Probably not until after age 10. I can't really remember.

So I don't necessarily have any problems with taking kids to a bar, but it depends on what happens while they are there. And I absolutely would not do it if there was any sort of custody issue. That's just stupid, because it doesn't sound good. "Yes, Your Honor, I took my kids to a bar."

At one club, I got the vibe that it was fine to be there early in the night, but that if we hadn't left when we did, it would not have been a good place for kids. Lots of young people who had consumed a drink or two. But the booze hadn't kicked in yet. You knew it was coming though. So we left while it was all still good.

If you don't mind the nitpicking, since it's something I've researched relatively recently:

People often mistake the meaning of "joint custody" to mean 50/50. The most common practice in virtually all states within the US is joint legal custody & primary caregiver physical custody, which usually means it's still around 5 days mom 2 days dad, or even every other week arrangements.

The research on the matter suggests the best interest of the kids is joint physical custody - the one where both parents have 50% of the time with the children (or within the range of 40-60%), who do suffer in well being initially but at later ages are almost on pair in all measurements with children of non divorced parents. Joint legal custody alone provides little to no testable benefits on the child's well being when compared to visitation rights (Both of which have both parents spending more or less the same amount of time with the child).

(I realize all of this is besides the point, which I have little to no opinion about because a bar can mean anything from an almost-stripclub with loud eardrum tearing music and college kids doing belly button shots to a nice family friendly restaurant that also has alcohol... So go on, nothing to see here).

@ Traceur

Yep. I meant joint physical custody.

And while this isn't a stripper bar, the music is always deafening, it is decidedly NOT a family bar. They serve cheap beer and hard liquor and the occasional glass of wine. They don't even have peanuts.

As to its suitability, I've been there a few times and somewhat felt the need to watch my back.

On the spectrum of bars I would say it is one quarter of the way to being halfway wholesome. What is that? An eighth?

About $20-$25.

Wait. Whut? Oh, I thought you were talking about weed.

:p:

He did say "joint" physical custody

Huh.

I remember once going into a bar like that with my son because it was the only public place around and he was in a bathroom related state of emergency. I felt more guarded then serving in the freaking 2nd Israeli-Lebanon war. I was terrified at what might happen. With my mind alerting itself to scenario's ranging from a gang of human traffickers to a prostitute deciding to practice her career exit plans as a tattoo artist. I can't imagine being able to relax as a parent in a situation like that.

No, just fucking no. you can't go hang out at a bar with your kids. WTF??? How is this even possibly beneficial to the kids. This is nothing but these two women showing they are more interested in selfishly doing what THEY want over whats best for their kids. Shouldn't have had them.

Dad: So honey, how was your time with Mom?
Kid: great.
Dad: What did you do?
Kid: went to a bar and hung out at the table while mom and her friend groped errr socialized with some musicians and ex cons.
Dad: Hello Mr Lawyer ...

Left my children up with my family in PA, and they will go with them to Maine and then fly back home later this week. Gave my brother instructions to update Facebook with anything interesting they do.

So last night he posted this.

Attachment 52364

He took my kids (and their 4 cousins) to a bar to watch soccer.

I'm fine with it. Glad they got to see the game. But I wonder if any laws were broken. You never know with Pa's weird booze rules.

Everything outside of Philly and Pittsburgh, is redneck talk radio fans, so Obama's laws don't count.

I'm a little surprised a bar would show soccer, but it looks like they are the only customers.

No proper 'redneck' would be caught dead listening to talk radio.

Talk radio don't play no Skynyrd.:rolleyes: