About the suicide depression thing
 

Robin Williams but also thinking about someone close to us all.....

STOP TELLING ME THAT DEPRESSION IS SERIOUS AND SOMETHING WE SHOULD TAKE SERIOUSLY! STOP TELLING ME WE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!

We/I DID take it seriously and we/I did know.

But what do you want us to do? keep someone in a prison in a straight jacket and force them to stay alive? Is that a life?

yeah, this is only a part-formed thought. that's why it's in nothingland

We could fight to eliminate the stigma. I don't know. That seems reasonable.

We can't save anyone but we could try to eliminate the shame the depressed feel when they admit to their depression. When they actively seek treatment. Or actively reach out to 'friends.'

Like the help we give those with eating disorders. It's all the rage! Or some sort of autism spectrum. It's all the rage!

Depression isn't popular. It ain't cool. It ain't the soup of the day.

Maybe we could just help them pull up their bootstraps. See how easy that was?

ffs

no :(

I think they did tell us. I felt helpless. I know many dwellars battle with depression, I know this is a dodgy and painful subject. I still feel helpless. I know people who are depressed and who consider ending it even though they are able to reach out and share that they are depressed. But what can/should I do?

You could try to kill them. See if they resist. That would remind them how silly they're being.

You wanna kill yourself? Go do that. But give a thought for the people that are likely to find your body. Try not to make a big mess.

Monster, you should not worry about anything with the word 'should' in it. There is no 'you' in the question 'what do you want us to do?'

Just do what I do.

Jim, there just might be :(


I cried for Robin, and I rarely cry. At all.

I learned through up-close-and-personal recent experience that they're not being silly. Being killed by someone else would be a blessing, not a wake-up call.

before you split hairs, you know what I meant

I don't think that removing the stigma surrounding depression would make a difference. Depression creates its own personal cloud of stigma.
Monster, there really is nothing you can do. You can offer practical help and emotional support, but if the depressed person doesn't take it and takes their life instead you are still left wondering "what should I have done?".
It's the worst feeling. Except, of course, for how a depressed person must feel. I suppose.

Right now I know two people who are very likely to die of a combination of deadly disease and choices they are making. One I've mentioned before, her breast cancer has returned, and she has decided to drop all western medicine and treat it through "toxin removal" and veganism. Another is my guitarist's son, who is on smack, and already at age 19 has had several near-death episodes.

We're not counselors, we're not professionals, we don't know what makes it worse or makes it better, or if there's anything in the entire world that can make it better. We offer what we can and it is often simply shunned or made impossible. I suspect that the deep, harsh judgements that we are trained from children to pass do not help; but that's my narrative, and what do I know? Nothing. We all have our narrative, and it's how we may feel broken, but even the broken amongst us have to admit, we don't share a narrative on life with most other broken people. Everyone's pain is theirs.

Ugh...touchy subject for sure. Sorry if I was harsh. I think my reaction is anger borne of sheer helplessness. Sometimes hopelessness.

Even as I say 'remove the stigma' I find it easier to turn away. Because it all hits way too close to home.

Sorry. :(

eta: my last sentence in last night's post about helping them pull up bootstraps see how easy that was...was supposed to be sarcasm. It just came off as assholishness.

I know and I didn't mean to trample everywhere but I needed to vent. Because every tribute everywhere is interrupted by someone pointing the finger saying "you/we don't take depression seriously enough and that's why children die" just let us mourn. Maybe we did fail him. and others. And we'll probably fail more, but we're trying and we do know and we do care... at least I do :(

There is a very real thing where suicides are contagious. And the CDC actually studied this problem about 20 years ago and came up with some things for the media and officials to avoid when talking about somebody who took their life, lest others who are struggling become copy cats.

I get that, monster. I did get angry about the stigma of depression. That came from 'me' and it's best for me not to discuss it further.

But I did try to give something to the community by posting two videos I found 1) funny and 2) poignant.

Well, Abe Vigoda is (still) alive.

That's sumthin, anyway.

This. Just this.

I don't know. Maybe we all should just remain ignorant about depression. Let's pretend it doesn't exist and maybe it'll go away. :(

Also, we should make those who make mention of increasing awareness and education when suicide rears its ugly head feel really really bad about doing that. Let's even get angry at them. Because that is also helpful.

I am sorry if my post prompted your reply, Infi. That was not my intention. We are all hurting in different ways right now, as a result of the death of Robin Williams. I had no intention of increasing your, or anyone else's hurt.

No, it was just the whole thing in general. I'm in a weird place. I should shut up. Sorry.

I've never known you to be unkind. Me, however... :(

eta: I also was reading the CNN comments. Most were nice, but there were some mean things...I shouldn't have brought those feelings here.

I think a lot of us are in a weird place right now :hug:

I'm going to try to articulate this, and probably fail, so please forgive me if I offend because that's not my intention...

I get the distinct impression that when people (not you, infi) angrily point out that people should have been aware of Suicide Victim's depression, or taken it more seriously, the only thing they are really saying is, "Why can't you see that I, too, am seriously depressed?" They are afraid that eventually it will be them who is mourned after the fact.

The thing is, raising awareness among the non-depressed does nothing. There really isn't a mainstream stigma around depression anymore, except that which the depressed person creates for themselves, because their depression lies to them in that way just like so many others. It doesn't help at all for Happy Joe to be thinking about how serious or prevalent depression is. It probably makes it worse, in fact, because non-depressed people are notorious for offering counterproductive advice to depressed people. The only effective message is going to be from those who have been there before, to those who are there now: "Depression lies. People love you. Here is where to get help." The message has to go inward to the community, not outward.

Really good points there Clod.

I would add though - whilst depression per se doesn't have the same stigma that it used to - elements of how depression affects people probably do carry a stigma. So - if one of the symptoms of your depression is an absolute incapability of doing relatively simple things like make a phone call or post a letter, whilst you are still able to do much more demanding things like attend a class or go into work - that sort of thing people just think is laziness.

One of the problems with depression is its specificity. It affects people differently and what might seem straightforward - washing the pots or emailing a query to the bank can take on mountainous proportions. For some people depression means total incapacity - for some it means that they carry on doing the things they absolutely have to do to get by, but everything else piles up around them and they are basically looking at the world through a transparent barrier. Or things are just bleak and colourless....empty.

There are so many ways to experience depression and too many people think that if you are not completely unable to do anything, or you are not in the depths of despair then you are not depressed. But despair is a very strong emotion - and sometimes you're just too empty for that kind of feeling.

I think a lot of people, and probably not many on here to be fair, because we've been on a journey as a community and lots of people have shared aspects of their depression and how it affects them - but a lot of people just don't really understand what depression is.

And even those of us who do have some understanding and insight into depression - from our own or others' experiences - still only have a partial picture and may still not know how best to respond to someone else's unique experience of it.

Those are all very good points, both Clodfobble and Dana. It is so very complex. And depression lies lies lies like a dog. So, it is very hard to tell what, or more importantly, who...is real.

You both said it better than I ever could. But Dana...thank you for this:

...elements of how depression affects people probably do carry a stigma. So - if one of the symptoms of your depression is an absolute incapability of doing relatively simple things like make a phone call or post a letter, whilst you are still able to do much more demanding things like attend a class or go into work - that sort of thing people just think is laziness.

I haven't heard anyone say they understand that specificity before. And I'd not really thought of it that way myself, though it fits me to a T.

It's all so hard to sort out.

Same thing for mass shootings.

I'm not sure there's any good answer to the conundrum. We are all grieving and trying to make sense of the death of someone who gave us so much joy, laughter, awe ... and make sense of the fact that, in spite of how much he made us feel better, he was in such pain that he chose to end his life. We wonder what we could've, should've done.

The answer is: nothing. When someone is that depressed, it is nearly impossible to stop a suicide. A severely depressed person will join in a family reunion picnic, joke with everyone, play with the kids, and then walk up the path to the cottage and use a shotgun to end his life. Depression, at that level, doesn't manifest itself in overt sadness, or anything that most people would recognize as 'depression'.

If a suicide is prevented, it's often more by luck than by design. That's how depression is. It has a 15% mortality rate.

A confidential example (as confidential as can be here): one of my meds post-chemo gave me major depression. Over a few weeks, I descended to the point of planning and being angry that my first few choices weren't immediately available. Then, one morning as I opened the garage door before starting my car, I smacked my forehead and thought, Of Course! I can just start the car and NOT open the door. I held it to myself as I went off to work, knowing that I had that option when night fell. For the day, I would see my patients and do my academic work and fulfill my obligations. Sing Happy Birthday to the staff member turning 48 and wear a funny hat, chat with everyone, take care of people, and come home to my option.

I stopped the med the day that I had that thought, and the depression and suicidal thoughts lifted quickly. But I understand how you can appear 'normal' in public while planning your death in the next few hours. It's not a matter of will; it's biochemical, and it's almost irresistible. For Robin Williams, my love and sympathy.

Hah!

Therein lies the problem. We believe depression.

Getting help isn't easy. Even with my excellent insurance, counselling and meds are like a car payment every month. It would be financial suicide to "go away" for awhile. No income now, no job later.

It's not easy

I just saw this today. Maybe it's old news and everybody already knows.

Yes, Robin Williams had a history of struggling with depression. But I didn't realize that an autopsy showed he wasn't struggling with depression when he took his own life. He had Lewy Body Disease. It was an undiagnosed neurological disease that causes behavioral changes. His autopsy showed a massive proliferation of Lewy bodies throughout his brain. Virtually every neuron in his brain was affected. Lewy bodies are where a normally occurring protein in the brain clumps in an unnatural way and interrupts brain activity. They cause Parkinsons Disease and also Lewy Body Disease. The link above is an article written by Robin's wife, explaining his symptoms and how the diagnosis was missed. I thought it was a good article.

I couldn't help but think of my own cousin with dementia who passed away recently, and also the millions of people with alzheimers. Both are slightly different neurological diseases, but are similar in that they basically turn the brain into swiss cheese.

Scary. :(

I'm pretty sure that my mother had Lewy Body Dementia misdiagnosed as Parkinson's. She had the paranoia, the hallucinations, the dropping in and out of reality, the depression, the awareness that her brain was crumbling, and very little of the motor issues that typify Parkinson's disease.


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