Sycamore's amazing conclusion #1
 

Organized religion is inherently corrupt. Discuss.

I'd say that it's completely separated from logic. Without some sense of logic to guide religion, it's a little hard to use it as a moral guide. People just re-interpret meanings in order to justify what they want.

I'm sure someone will disagree with me, though. It's such an inflammatory topic. :)

For the record, I had some very interesting thought streams today. This was the first of three "amazing conclusions" I had. I'll definitely expand on them...most likely tomorrow or Friday. I just wanted to throw them out here now, just to gauge reaction and opinion.

Also, take note that today was Ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent for Christians. (Easy way to spot "devout" Catholics today: Look for those that bear the "mark.")

I completely agree with you, though I'm still a catholic, I really have issues with the church, to the point that I barely ever go when I'm not with the parents.

juju

Completely separated from logic? That's a bit of a broad swath.

I think a logical case can be constructed for believing in a creator God who is intelligent, powerful, just, and loving, and who is involved in the workings of humanity.

-sm

OK, make it.

as far as organized religion goes, i agree with juju that its completely separated from logic. because lets face it, logic doesnt bring in nearly as much money as emotion.

i left organized religion long ago because of this (amongst other things). i didnt want church to entertain, i wanted it to enlighten. and i sure as shit dont need to be told who to vote for from the pulpit. i still believe, and i still consider myself a christian. but i will not finance or support a church which uses peoples emotion to make a profit. thats job belongs to hollywood and sally struthers.

my belief boils down to two things:

1. the golden rule (do unto others, blabh blah blah)
2. said best by salma hayek in dogma:

~james

Intelligent is probably a huge understatement. The man's supposed to be <i>omniscient.</i>.

Anyway, it seems to me that's the whole reason faith is so important to religious folk. Without logic to fall back on, they've got to just believe on blind faith. It ain't called blind faith for nothin'.

How else can you convince people that women wearing pants is evil? Now, thankfully, lots of religious people have logic. So most of them don't believe all the really crazy stuff (dancing is evil, men shouldn't have long hair, etc.). But I really think the faith and the logic are separate entities. And I wouldn't go so far as to say the bible supports the logic. I think it's more like the logic keeps the bible in perspective.

and no matter what people on either side of the argument may say, theyre mutually exclusive. if one has to try to reconcile their faith to logic, i dont feel they have that much faith in the first place. if you have to apologize for your convictions, they must need strengthening, or changed altogether.

the stories in the bible (or almost any other religious text, from what i understand) often directly defy logic, and its important, i think, to realize that whats important is not the words, but the underlying theme being communicated.. that theme, i think (at least in the new testament), is that the best way to be a christian is to be understanding of others, kind to all, and willing to give help to those that need it. and in that sense, the bible (and other religious texts) is an excellent moral guide. but as far as how its preached, well, that often leaves something to be desired.

~james

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wow... This is gonna take a few...

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Syc, I'd have to say it depends on the religion. If the religion talks about the evils of money and such then yeah, to keep the church going they're going to have to work the cash. It's contradictory and thus can be called corrupt. Not all religions do that though, I doubt their was a lot of corruption in the ancient worship of gods like Pan. When they claim, "We believe we should get drunk, have an orgy and live hedonistic lives." Hmm, wouldn't corruption in such beliefs be charitable acts? So hey, as long as they don't lower themselves to care about anyone but themselves what's the problem. Just a perspective.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Smooth, just leave us hanging why don't ya? I will say that you can make a logical argument for just about anything as long as you narrow your field of vision enough. In 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' for instance a logical argument is made that Gravity didn't exist before Newton. Obviously false it was still a logical argument. And I'm sure we are all familiar with the magic bullet theory.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Perth, I gotta disagree with your Selma Hayek quote. Why should I have faith? I can't come up with any reason that isn't faith based. Could you explain why I should? Just wonderin', a lot of Christians have tried to convert me and this is always the first wall. I don't have faith, they say I should but can't tell me why. Well, except for the ever-present threat of Hell. I know that you are not sponsoring Christianity per se, but I'd really appreciate some clarification on the faith thing.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Juju, "The Man?" You sexist bastard. You think God must be male?!? Obviously your male dominant attitude is showing through. By the by, the bible doesn't say that men shouldn't have long hair, it says it's shameful. Glad to clear that up,you damn long-haired hippie.

God has established here elsewhere his divine masculinity ...

think of it this way. faith is faith. faith in god, vishnu, thor, zeus; faith in your family, the goodness of mankind, or in your own ability to know right from wrong. im not asking you to have faith in god, im asking you to have faith. i dont believe there different kinds of faith.

the ability to have and express faith in whom(what)ever it is you choose is a wonderful thing. i personally choose to place my faith in god. where you place your faith is your decision.

~james

Mother Nature.

While we're on the subject, anyone care to guess what I gave up for Lent?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I assume we are working off the definition of faith as believing in something we can't prove? If so then I'd like to draw a line in the difference between expectation and faith. The difference being faith accepts that something is true and expectation accepts that it is likely. I'm moving on with this if you disagree then I'll have to go back.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Anyway, I don't have faith in anything you mentioned. I expect that I'll choose what is right over what is wrong to the best of my knowledge and I expect that I'll often be wrong. Faith in the family went out the window awhile back, nasty situation, and now I expect that they will do good by me, but I would never count on it. I've never seen any reason to put my faith in any higher power, divine judgment or universal justice. Not outside of a Disney movie anyway. I do like that people have the ability to have faith I just never saw the point myself.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Just to clarify, I think everything we 'know' is questionable. This years scientific facts are just as likely to be shown to be false later as the facts we've proven false in the past. I accept that my perceptions and knowledge is limited and fallible, and it doesn't bother me. So again I ask "Why have faith?"

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Oh yeah, Wolf, I know that God is male, I was just messing with Juju. Yesterday I called him a 'Prima Dona' it only seemed right to go the other way by calling him sexist today. Thanks for the clarification though.

(For those with no sense of humor: The claim that I "know" god is male in a post where I said I don't believe in any higher power was intentional.)

fair enough. i would generally stop with "believing in something", but neither you nor the dictionary agree with me :)
it was a brief list of examples. i imagine i could sit for weeks thinking of things people put their faith in.
and in my eyes, the fact that you try to do whats right is whats important, not whether or not you get it right every time. thats good enough to count as faith to me. as a definition, i know it doesnt match up. but as a concept, i think it does.
okay.
agreed.
because unless you accept the truth of some things youre doomed to doubt everything. which may be fine with you, but it doesnt sound like fun to me.

~james

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Well, not everything is in doubt. Some truths are pretty basic, like water's wet and pain sucks for instance. I know that not everyone agrees with that last one, but it's something I don't question. I don't think that's a faith thing though.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Seriously, the only reason I've ever been given to have faith is that some people who were substance abusers needed faith to get out of that hedonistic lifestyle. I've really been enjoying this conversation, but I'm still waiting on the answer to my question "Why have faith?" I gave the only reason I know of but it doesn't apply to me or a lot of people I know. So how 'bout it?
Okay, this throws me. Maybe it's because I'm working off definition which you admit doesn't match up. It seems to me that you are connecting faith and doing good directly. I've got to say I find that a little insulting. That basically means that I do good because deep down inside I DO have faith. Um, no, I don't. I do good because that's what I value. I choose my actions not from faith but from self-respect. I don't care about opinions of a 'higher being' only my own. You're going to have to back-up tying faith to doing what you think is right. I don't see it.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Looking forward to your reply.

I have faith in porn.


Mmmmm.... porn...

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And just what would "faith in porn" entail? The belief that it's everlasting and that the world is made better by a good cum-shot?

Belief?

Weren't you paying attention? Faith just means my own ability to choose right from wrong. So, in effect, by saying "I have faith in porn", I'm just saying that porn is "good".

Isn't that all true?

im not going to respond in any particular order, so bear with me.
i misspoke. i didnt intend to tie faith to doing good. my point was that faith can take many forms, not the least of which is faith in ones ability to choose right from wrong. theres a distinction here. choosing right from wrong does not require faith, but faith in yourself requires that you know right from wrong and work to achieve that. i realise you dont consider that faith, and thats fine. call it what you will, belief, expectation, faith. i see it as faith because i have a broader interpretaion of the word.
that wasnt intended to insult. neither i nor the dictionary (or you, based on your definition of faith) tie faith to belief in a higher power. i didnt say you do good because you have faith in a higher power, you do good because you have faith (or whatever you want to call it) in yourself to do so. having faith does not necessitate belief in a higher power. so when you ask:
i respond by thinking, "in what? god? yourself? money? faith in what?" because your question is too broad. and even if it was specific, (using faith in god as an example) i couldnt answer that, because i cant even explain why *i* have faith in god. i just do. i made a choice to do so and while that choice is often a struggle for me, ive found that its what works best for me in my life.

~james

Humanity is flawed. Organised religion is also flawed. This doesnt mean God ( that would be me) doesnt exist.

That also means that Satan exists too though.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It sounds to me like we are at an impasse due to definitions. Let's try this, I try to do good. I think everyone thinks what they are doing is the right thing, but I could be wrong. Because I've made choices based on my experience, not just pulled out of my ass, most people agree that I tend to do good things. Are you saying it's faith in my self that drives my desire to good, guides my ability to do good, or that it's faith that makes me think it's right?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I would like to point out that your average sociopath is convinced that they are doing what should be done, therefore the 'right thing.' I don't think that their faith makes their decisions good.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Um, God? If organized religion is flawed doesn't that mean that you've been misrepresented? If so doesn't it follow that, in fact, the biblical God doesn't exist? Perhaps you're some close proximity to the biblical god or did they get it all wrong?

[EXCUSE]Sorry for the stall. One of my artists just got signed, so I'm in the studio for a while.[/EXCUSE] When I get a chance, I'll start a new thread with what I think is a solid logic argument for the existence of God. Any of you wishing to read ahead may want to look at the Islamic Kal-am cosmological argument, and brush up on your Kant and Barth.

Until then, continue your pagan hedonism ...
-sm

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Kant??? You want me to go back over Kant? Aw, christ, would you like me to follow that up by crushing my nuts with a rolloing pin?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Oh wait, I mean... no, that pretty much covers what I meant. Does it have to be Kant? Shit...
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Maybe "pagan hedonism" suddenly doesn't sound like such a bad choice...

Tell us about the signed artist! (Er, in another thread...)

Wow sm, are you a label owner or a manager? (Like UT said, post in another thread.)

I myself own a label...completely dedicated to my own output. We haven't released much...actually, we haven't released anything. Someday, though.

probably.
i agree. i did not say that faith drives their decision-making process (although, it can). faith in god and faith in yourself are 2 different things. your faith in yourself does not drive your decisions, it is a result of your decisions. faith in god, for those that choose to have it, can drive a decision-making process. maybe i should be using different words for these concepts, but i really cant think of anything without arbitrarily choosing as synonym.

i think our problem is that even when we do agree on a definition, our interpretations are still drastically different.

~james

cellar>main>home base>music industry junk

-sm

HEY!!!

Just because one is a pagan, it does not necessarily follow that one is also necessarily a hedonist!

What about pagan asceticism ... :p

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wolf, forget it. If he's into Kant and you're discussing religion it goes into morals. Since morals guide logic but not the other way around, You're wrong. Why are you wrong you ask? Because. That is the correct answer and no more of this shall be discussed.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Perth, yeah, I'd agree with the interpretational problem. By the by, the first thing I did when faith was mentioned was look it up in my "Big Honkin' Dictionary" (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language) just to be on the safe side. You were also upfront from the beginning about having a little different "concept" of the word. I'm still curios about the way you tend to link faith and good. It sounds almost Narnian, Seems like I remember the Lion saying something about all good is done in his name even if it's the other guys name that is invoked. Something along those lines?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Um, God? Aren't you listening? I asked a question... Oh, wait. I forgot. It's heresy to question God. My bad, so sorry.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dave, my apologies if I suggested it wasn't true. I was merely suggesting that as a possible basis for Juju's statement.

mmmm, i dont think so. the concept of good and the concept o faith are not necessarily inclusive. they *can* go together and often do, but one does not need the other to exist.

its been years since ive read anything narnia. i might have to pick up a copy and reread it, especially if im reminding you of it.

~james

Nut crushing is optional. He's important to modern philosophy and religion not because of his conclusions (don't worry, I'm not going to trace the "moral absolutism" argument), but because he defines the terms and sets the grid for pretty much every modern (western) foray into the discussion that doesn't devolve into post-modern gibberish.

-sm

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To perth. Hmm, in your earlier posts there was definitely a link between good and faith. Juju even razzed you about it. So, I'm not really sure what's up. I actually had faith when I was young, back when I was being raised to believe in God. So I have a concept floating in my head and it seems to fit the book definition. I just don't know where you are. The Narnian thing was just a shot in the dark, an attempt to reconcile all your statements into something I could clearly understand. In the end it seems to me that faith to you is more of an undefined feeling, almost an instinct. You feel a link between your desire to do good and what faith is to you, so you assume that's how we all work. Um... Yeah, it's not... People are way to diverse for emotions that work all the same. Which is why my question of why you should have faith never quite got answered. Something on that basic a level would really be hard to explain. So, am I on to something? You tell me, I don't know how your mind works.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Smooth, ok... I'll take your word on not going into Kant's moral thing. I await your thread. Also, if you prove God's existence can you get him to let me do the thing with the money and the fish?

im not seeing where i said that. i do see where i used some examples, and i probably should have used broader examples to avoid this sort of thing. my bad. my point was not to link faith to goodness, i should have also used examples like faith in money, drugs and yes, even porn. i did notice this tho:
so im going all contradictory, just like the bible! but the thing is, i meant it each time i wrote it. so its a work in progress. the thing is, im not really sure i totally understand my beliefs yet myself. up until just over a year ago, i was convinced that religion was a crock and that the church was a racket. not sure what changed, i still feel the same way about church.

okay, this is why my view of faith is different from traditional definition. a 'righteous christian' once told me that gandhi would burn in hell for eternity because he wasnt a christian. i cannot reject christianity outright, but i also cannot reconcile that to my beliefs. i refuse to believe that millions of good people go to hell simply because their beliefs dont line up with mine. so i reconciled it. it may be a half-baked and not completely developed belief, but i prefer it to the alternative.

~james

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is where we get the link between faith and doing good. Trying to good is what's important, good enough to count as faith.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I think it's cool that you're willing to admit to contradictory statements instead of BSing out of them. It's a quality that's rare in people, even in a coffee shop with no coffee, and no shop, that I've been to a few times...
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Good luck with finding the beliefs that make you happy, as long as you're not hurting anyone else I'm all for it. And hey, share some of us might like some or all of it.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks for questioning me, I figure if you're not ready to have the belief challenged you don't really believe it. That's why all my christian friends have an open invite to try to make me believe. Of course some of them have had hurt feelings when they failed, but I've never tried to make one of them not believe, so we get by.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Anyway, if you ever come up with a concise answer to my original question:
Let me know, I'm always ready to listen

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;One last thing for the road.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;See we were on topic the whole time! You people just thought we'd strayed.

post 666! i thought it would go nicely in this thread.
okay. i see it too. watch me backpedal:

goodness does not require faith.

im still not sure whether faith requires goodness, because that contradicts some other things i think. the big issue here is that i need to go to work defining faith a bit more solidly.
thank you. i appreciate you being cool about it too. i dont mind admitting when im wrong, faith requires humility (its a joke! not a funny one, but still a joke).

~james