How do you deal
 

with the reality a grown child throws at you ...

With the reality of how awful a childhood was, how much trauma it caused? Whether caused by a father who went off the rails and became a monster for a number of years ... whether caused by a church that was too strict, too unforgiving, too unaccepting.

In the end, it's all at my door. There are mitigating circumstances, but then there are always mitigating circumstances. I don't feel up to mustering the argument. I am responsible for my actions and inactions.

My oldest son is upset and has withdrawn since my remarriage. My third son really doesn't understand, although he tries. He's very articulate, though, and makes clear how terrible the trauma was.

I don't have anything in self-defense except the old chestnut that we don't know what we'll do, or feel, in a situation until faced with it. We can talk all we want but it doesn't mean a thing. It turns out that, having divorced my husband, been abruptly abandoned by a new friend, and having taken on a new job in a new state where I knew no one ... I didn't want to face cancer and death alone.

I had so many nightmares of being lowered into the ground in a wooden box, screaming and pounding on the lid. I didn't sleep for months. So I finally texted my ex and asked for his help. I hadn't been able to arrange the basic surgery needed to figure out what stage of cancer I had. I was falling apart.

I know Bruce and others warned about what was likely to happen, and it did happen. But it's not so easy to get comprehensive home care and everything you need to cope with four drains and night fevers and visual catastrophes for weeks and months on end. After every chemo treatment I knew what it was to feel death coming on. I'd be so exhausted that I'd lie in bed and I couldn't feel my hands, arms, or legs. I'd try to put my cell phone onto the night table and I couldn't do it because I couldn't feel my hands, even though I could see the phone cradled in my right hand as it lay on my chest.

I don't know what would have happened then without help, although I know I wouldn't have managed to continue working. I suppose I'm that person who will do what it takes to survive even though she becomes a despicable object.

I can't think of my past life without wanting to kill myself. I don't know what the future holds. I can't escape the fact that, in spite of having done everything in my power to save and sustain and empower my children, they are permanently traumatized and struggle daily due to their history.

I put one foot in front of the other. I'm not sure for what, anymore. I do it. Maybe in future I'll regret this, too.

eta I am trying to find courage. I look at Barbara Brenner and Ann Silberman and I conjure up courage. But during the night it slips away.

*Don't know what to say, but acknowledging*

You did this "everything in my power to save and sustain and empower my children". You made the best decisions you could at the time, with the information you had available to you.
Please do not blame yourself for consequences that you could not foresee and are not of your making. You did your best, and you still are.
Hugs to you.

You could have got it all right, and them still have been traumatised by childhood. You could have got it all wrong and them turn out well-balanced and happy.

My mum used to wrap herself up in guilt that somehow, maybe because she didn't breastfeed with me (that was touted as the reason for half a dozen illnesses during the 80s and 90s) she was ultimately responsible for me having horrendous eczema.

Like Limes said: you did what you could, made the best decisions you could make, with the resources at your disposal and within your capacity at the time.

Tell the spoiled brats to suck it up and see if they can do better with their lives, rather than hiding behind a childhood that 90% of the people in the world would have given anything for.

Oh, life wasn't perfect, boo fuckin' hoo. You want a perfect life, go make one.

I'm sorry. I get overwhelmed by guilt at times and I feel like I've gotten all my major life decisions wrong. I'm still struggling with the implications of my illness for the future. I'll pull it back together and carry on, but nights are hard. I'm sorry to keep losing my composure - it's embarrassing. But thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

Don't be sorry. You didn't lose your composure, you just offloaded some shit that was knocking you off your stride.

I guess, from stuff you've said, that you don't always think of yourself as strong. But, y'know, you impress the fuck out of me on a daily basis with your strength and resilience.


[eta] Y'know, I think guilt is something all parents have to deal with. Not just parents. I swear I can still make myself cry with guilt over the stuff I got wrong with my Pilaudog.

What Bruce said and and as for you, cut out the 'woulda coulda shoulda' crap. The past is gone, doesn't exist. The future will never arrive, it doesn't exist either. There is just this moment. You decide how you want to live it, you decide how to combust your life, moment by moment.

Practice being present in this moment because that is who you are, you are not the person who made good or bad decisions 20 years ago or even 20 minutes ago. You are who you decide you are going to be right this second. then the next second, and the next...

I've really been trying to internalize the concept of living in the moment, not worrying about the past or the future. Easier said than done but trying.

I agree with what you say about guilt in parents/caregivers, Dana. We all feel it at some point.

This is my mother's story, my story.

Yes, my childhood sucked.
Yes, I've got some baggage from it.

We all do, to differing extents. As others have said, you did what you could, where you were, with what you had. Though your children are tempted to ask for more, that chapter is done and there is nothing you can do to rewrite it now.

For yourself, I'd say to be honest -- you need help and companionship, and this situation works for you. You can be sorry that they don't agree with the choice, but they cannot make the choice for you.

For them: your past does not define you. It might have informed who you are, but the only one in control of your adult life is you. You can grieve over the idyllic childhood you wish you'd had, then put your big boy panties on and go build a life for yourself that you are happy with.

Wishing you peace and comfort, ortho. I hope nights become easier for you soon.

Ortho, as a physician, you've influenced and improved the
lives of many other people, but you haven't spoken much about that.
If you feel you just must lay some guilt on yourself, then I think
you just must balance it off by the good you have already done.

Of course, I don't at all believe a guilt trip is necessary in the first place.
As a parent and g-parent, long ago I said to myself that my work was done.
My kids turned out as they did as a result of thousands of influences.
I'm satisfied I made the best decisions I could at the time,
and I suspect you did too.

Besides, grand-kids are good to look forward to, and any negatives
about them can be laid at the feet of the "parent-in-law" :rolleyes:

If you physical well-being allows it, any physical activity,
including seeing patients again, can be an initial treatment
for depressed feelings and all the other woes of the world.

My best wishes for a speedy recovery...

You know, my stepdaughter once commented to me, "Well, I'll never make that mistake," and I told her, "No, that's right--you'll make brand new mistakes of your own that we never made."

You may find that your sons forgive you more after they've had their own kids. It always looks so easy from the outside, and especially as a young adult who still thinks they know everything about the world, but...

Thank you. It's true, what you all say. Tonight I'll avoid long talks with adult children and just practice breathing.

A couple years ago I found I had some childhood baggage I didn't even realize I was dragging. When I found it existed, I started to examine it and wanted to kick my own ass for harboring such childish and unfair resentments against my parents.

What my folks accomplished in their lifetimes was astounding, and I resented not always getting my way. It's embarrassing.:o

Remember there should be an exhale for every inhale. It's a common beginner's mistake. ;)

I'll keep it in mind. But practice makes perfect, right?

I'm so frustrated for you right now, ortho. This is absolutely the time for you to be completely selfish, to heal yourself. And your kids need to get a hold of themselves, to be there for you and provide every kind of support that they can. They really need to stop thinking about themselves right now, and concentrate on you.

And you have every right to tell them so! You being strong for you, and them being strong for you, is what will help you get through this cancer crap!

I'm with the others here who have said your children sound like they're being very selfish. FFS, they're all grown ups now. Surely they know what the real world is like by now. Not everything happens because of some set of rules, and everyone goes through stuff which influences who they are.

If they really feel they're so fucked up, tell them to go see a counsellor and deal with that shit.

You have enough of your own shit to deal with. You gave them the best of yourself for their first 20 years or so. It's up to them to make the most of what they've got. I say, tell them to get over their 'first world problems' and wake up and smell the roses. Their lives don't seem too fucking bad to me.

eta: in your position, I would not even acknowledge their complaining. Honestly. I would actually be pretty pissed off (and believe me, my kids have made a number of comments in the past, so I speak from experience). Maybe you need to be a bit more of a hard arse with them. When your 'children' are adults (mine are almost there), they need to make the cognitive leap from blaming their parents (who traditionally hold the power) to acknowledging their own responsibility (because now they are the ones with the power) for their issues. Some people never do, so spend their whole life blaming their failures on their parents or their terrible up bringing. Others do. It's called growing up.

Last summer and fall Claudette told me it was my time to be selfish. She told me to do whatever I needed to do to get through - and if that meant accepting help from my ex, so be it. She also told me to stop focusing on my guilt toward others and let them deal.

She was right, and so are you. I've managed to detach from issues that my second son tries to lay at my feet ... that's been a process over many years. I can now love him, be supportive, but hand his issues and accusations back to him to deal with. There haven't been the same crises and confrontations with my other two sons or my daughter and that handing over of responsibility hasn't happened in the same way. My first son has rarely talked about his memories or trauma, so on the few occasions that it's happened, it was hard for me. My third son is very articulate, and he has the ability to cut my heart out with a few words and hand it to me. That's what happened (again) the other night.

But my kids are all adults now, (turning) 21 - 27. You're right, my job is done. Time for them to make what they want to of their lives. I gave them my best, and though I made mistakes, they always knew I loved them. I didn't have that in my upbringing. I know it's why I overcompensated with my own children.

So ... thank you for calling bullshit. I can't do this anymore, I did the best I could and they know it. Even the parish they think was so awful ... sure, the people weren't perfect. They were human, that's all. Not villains, just humans with typical faults. And while the discipline of an Old Rite Russian Orthodox parish might seem strict to some (we stood in services for 1 1/2 hours on Saturday nights and an equal time on Sunday mornings, and the kids learned some Old Slavonic), many kids endure far more grueling schedules at marching band practice, gymnastics, or other athletic or academic pursuits. My sons have admitted the advantage of knowing some Ukrainian, some Russian, and some Slavonic, as well as the French they learned in Canada. Chinese parents in Canada demanded far more of their kids. By those standards I wasn't a tiger mom at all, and our household wasn't any sort of chamber of horrors.

Claudette was right,.. again.

We are not fully formed people ever, let alone when were still young enough to become parents. Expecting a lot of your children is so much better than what we see so much of in the States, parents who expect nothing of their children.

Mothers are always vulnerable to this guilt trip shit, maybe that's why they can be so good doling it out, too. :haha:

Just keep in mind, relatives are assigned like parking spaces, but friends are chosen. Choose yours carefully, you don't need the grief.

Can you still smack your adult children?

If not tell them Classic said to STFU. If they want to hear about a bad deal - give em my email address. Fukkin brats.

I think that's a tad harsh. Though, I agree with the basic thrust.

The thing is, it is all too easy, for anyone, to become set in ways and patterns of thinking and viewing the world. We all do it. They have become caught in a particular view of their past and haven't had the opportunity (or drive) yet to reassess and reconfigure the view.

Good one Bruce. I know lot of people who can use this bit. Think I will get it stamped on my t-shirt.

Ortho: I haven't been here for long enough to know you like other of the cellar dwellers. But I can say regrets are not going to do you any good.
As they say:
Don't start your day with broken pieces of yesterday. Every morning we wake up is the first day of the rest of our life.

That's beautiful, I've never heard that before.

I like that very much, too. Thank you, wanderer.

As usual, Dana, your thoughtful comments hit the nail on the head. Although I really cannot shoulder any more guilt and grief over the past, my kids are young enough adults that they haven't the life experience yet to know that life smacks all of us around and each of us is fallible. They'll get there. I think seeing parents clearly is perhaps one of the last things that comes with maturity. That doesn't make these conversations easier to deal with but I understand.

Yeah, but growing up enough to realose your parents aren't perfect is one thing. Being mature enough not to blame them for it is quite different.

I love this thread.

**I hasten to add that I do NOT love the pain and the bullshit orthodoc (and others) suffer.**

But I do love hearing from my wise friends.

ortho, you do have many friends here, and they are, as a group, as smart and strong and insightful and articulate and compassionate as any group of people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing, much less belonging to. I learn from them, and from you. I don't always agree with what I hear, for example, your remark that "your kids are adults; your job is done". I think Griff's take is much closer to the mark, that we're never fully formed people, that we, all of us, parents and children alike, can continue to grow and learn.

I have adult children too, indeed, I, myself, am an adult child of my mom (and dad, duh, but dad's dead now, ... anyhow). And I am still learning my way through life; they are still learning their way through life. Our paths are not parallel, but they are congruent. Mistakes, triumphs, hard work, continuous effort. Chances to see beauty and to have fun, they're all there for all of us. Like you, I have expectations of my kids that are in many cases higher than where they're at. I have ideals for them to live UP to, like taking personal responsibility. But only in fair proportion, only what's appropriate. Again, that's as true valid for me as it for them.

And sometimes, the expectations are exceeded. The successes my kids make for themselves are so gratifying to witness. Their rewards for their hard work, I'm so happy to see that. I don't know how they managed, and it's true, they'll never know how much blood, sweat, and tears I put into their lives. That's... that's how it is.

It's true that the response described by classic frequently comes to mind when I'm faced with what I feel is an unreasonable response on the part of my kids (or extended family for that matter). They're ALL too big to spank anymore, but I still permit myself a nostalgic nod toward that dusty, long-unused tool. Now, I have to reason with them. (insert giant eyeroll here). While it lacks the visceral satisfactions of other means of persuasion, it does prove effective, and that is what I'm striving for.

I'm still learning, and so are they. But the learning is UP TO THEM, it's not on me to "make them" learn. Sure, you're still their parent, sure, your job isn't done, but it has changed. Now the tools they've been given must be employed, by them, to continue to grow. They'll get there. For now, they're still striving upward toward your expectations. Let them strive, it makes them strong.

At a friends party a couple of kids were going out to play in the woods.

The mom: "Be careful."
The dad: "Have fun."

That exchange sums up parenting and contains everything.

Absolutely. So simple, but so true.

and *both* elements are necessary (whether they're coming from one parent only or both).

It turns out the friends were the teenage daughter and her new boy friend.

The mom: "Have fun."
The dad: "Be careful."

That exchange sums up parenting and contains everything.

ha ha.

I don't think I know any moms that would play that role, I know lots of dads that would play that role, and some of whom would be thinking the mom's line.

Still, if they're gonna have fun, they'd better be careful.

Quote: "It's never too late to have a happy childhood"

Tom Robbins. Still Life with Woodpecker

Bunyip?
Do we have another Aussie on board?
Welcome regardless.


ETA - your location quite clearly says you are Australian. Oops!

Thank you, Sundae. South Ozzies are different though...we didn't have convicts!

You're not in Badelaide are you?
I know they're a different breed there for certain.

I have been lurking for some time now. I think I know who you mean.

It's a worry, isn't it?

You cant beat a qlder though. Specially if you're from NSW. HAHAHA....I crack myself up. Honestly i do.

Welcome Bunyip!

Welcome, Bunyip!

May I ask what a bunyip is?

Let Wikipedia be your friend for this. They go back 40,000 years and are still around (apparently).

Less elusive than the Yeti or Sasquatch and, by reputation, more deadly.
But then again, it would have to be, living in Australia!

This old bunyip may be coming to a swamp near you...'ware

Thank you too, Ali.
Qld has had many Bunyip sightings. They like your climate.