Date Rape
 

This was the result, or I should say part of the result.
http://cellar.org/2012/fearus.jpg

FearUs.Org has the backstory and this link to a 1985 newspaper article about social psychologist Jacqueline Goodchilds' survey.

There's been some really interesting and important work done in this area. Sometimes quite startling to see the results.

Here's a more recent study of attitudes amongst young people in the UK towards gendered violence (study group was taken from a handful of scottish highschools):

http://www.ndvf.org.uk/files/document/1093/original.pdf

It wont let me cut and paste quotes from it, but I recommend it for an interesting read. It isn't just about male on female violence, it looks at attitudes towards violence and abuse within teenage relationships more generally.

"He is so turned on he thinks he can't stop."
and
"She gets him excited sexually."

Isn't this implying exactly the same thing, only worded differently?

In the first example, it's not his fault he is such a virile man that he can't help when he gets a boner. It's a compliment to that guy.

In the second example it's not his fault she's sexy or pretty or maybe kissed him too passionately. It's a criticism of that girl.

So, yeah, the same thing, really. Just from different angles.

Also, because it has the highest approval rating by far from the women, I'm guessing the kids thought it was implying that she had deliberately engaged in some sort of sexual activity with him already. Most similar to "she is going to but changes her mind."

Language is important, the old, "I don't think that means what you think it means", plays a big part in any attempt at mutual agreement/understanding. From Dana's link.

I was amazed that there were any approving response at all in the women's column.

I remember a study of college aged men where one of the questions was, "Is it ok to rape a woman?" something like 96% responded No. The next question was "If a woman gets drunk and passes out is it ok to have sex with her?" Some overwhelmingly large number responded Yes.

Clearly there needs to be more education.

"Emotional slaughter."

I like that. The phrase, not the slaughter. It is slaughter.

Years ago, I read a Readers Digest article about Dartmouth
fraternity members attending a meeting where the age of consent
was being debated.

A motion to set the age of consent to 16 yrs was amended and passed
by the fraternity majority ... The amendment made it mandatory.

:rolleyes:

Well Dartmouth is in the boonies, so they have to supplement with local talent.

42%???

Fucking WOW.

I found that whole report fascinting. It was quite nuanced.

But as glatt demonstrated, the questions may nuanced to the author, but confusing to the students who are trying to apply them to their experience, or hearsay from their friends.

She claimed she said no. But he knows that's impossible because of the duct tape. ;)

yea well what happens when 'she' comes into your room drops a couple condoms at your feat and looks at you like 'which way did he go george'.. so you have sex and then 'she' turns around and says 'you sexually offended me you minute man'...

In 1978 there was no generally accepted concept of date rape; if rape happened it was always and only the woman's fault. There was no point reporting an acquaintance assault, and there were no supportive social networks. The only responses would be, "What were you doing there? What did you do to provoke it? Just because you acted like a slut, don't ruin HIS life by making trouble."

It just didn't make sense to report date rape at that time.

"...holds her down and physically forces her to have sex..." ???

Jesus Christ, I didn't think that was called "date rape" --I thought that was, you know, RAPE rape.

What's that saying about how flimsy the social fabric is and how easily quickly everything devolves?

There's really not that much between order and Lord of the Flies.

I read something recently - I think it was a Daily Kos diary, but I can't find it right now - about a teacher who had a discussion with a class of kids. Some thought that having sex with an unconscious girl wasn't rape, because she couldn't say no. And when told that, no, you have to actually get consent, not just avoid denial, they were like, "Oh, yeah. That makes more sense."

Some people assume that previous intimacy grants on going permission and become desensitized to the fact that it is still rape. By no means does that make it OK.

Some of the people in that survey are my age now and voting. I keep wondering how some of these idiots like Todd Akin get elected, and I now I guess I know.

I would like to pass out those exact questions at the next Democratic and Republican national conventions and compare the results.

Actually two sets of questions, the first is written exactly as the original. Then turn the page and the question becomes '.....and what if the female is your daughter or granddaughter?'

I don't think rape respects political boundaries. The guy who date-raped me at eighteen (in 1978, coincidentally) would certainly be a leftist Liberal or New Democrat (in Canada) now - the equivalent of a leftist Democrat here. Todd Akins notwithstanding, it's not so much about politics as about personal lack of integrity/morality.

Have you ever wanted to find him and kick him in nuts? I think I would.

I've daydreamed about it. Kicking him hard, after explaining to his wife that he's a rapist.

Better left to daydreams. In Canada I'd only be arrested for assault.

Well, you're in the US now and we do go in for any of that metric crap.

His integrity can only be measured in mm, not inches. And if he ever has the temerity to contact me again, he'll need PPE (personal protective equipment).

I'm sorry that happened to you. That just makes me so angry, I'm not sure I know any women who've never been raped or somehow sexually assaulted. I'm already teaching the mm to fight, and to enforce her boundaries. When she gets older I'll see that she gets martial arts training along with, you know, hunting training.

Make sure she knows how to ground fight. There's no room for a rifle in a car.

And thank you ... it's one of those things. I felt worthless for years, until I realized how many women had had the same thing happen.

Friend of mine was date-raped. We were 19-20.

Yes, she was stoned. But it was definitely rape, she said no, no, no then gave in after he threatened to hit her.
She told me about it in a letter. She lived in Bradford at the time, I lived in London.
I wanted to go punch his lights out. I offered, but she was already so ashamed, she didn't want anything known about it. I acceded.

Wish I'd known then some of the dodgy people I ended up knowing.
They'd have smacked him up on nothing more than my say-so. She'd been a barmaid too and we looked after our own.
Violence is not the answer. Never is. But sometimes, some people need smacking. He was a well-off and well-connected student, not a rough boy from some estate. He felt entitled. A couple of joints and he's bought her snatch.

What I didn't do still bothers me.

Sorry Ortho.
This should never happen.
We need to teach fathers and brothers and uncles and sons.

This is the way most of it happens. There's a small threat, or an implied threat, and the girl gives in. You don't have to teach your daughters to successfully attack and disable a big strong man--you just have to teach them not to give up. In most cases they actually just have to keep screaming, rather than fighting at all.

Every situation is different. Sometimes a woman can fight off an attacker; other times she can attract enough attention that he gives up. But there are many times where a woman has been isolated so that screaming isn't useful and the threat is real. In that case, giving up may be the smartest thing to do. It could save a woman's life. No woman should be made to feel she didn't do enough, somehow, to prevent a rape.

You're right, ortho. I'm sorry if my post implied that, I certainly never meant to assign fault to the victim.

Also, people always seem so surprised when a rapist is not an uncouth, trashy, illiterate, poor farm boy. Like wealthy, educated boys know better. Not true at ALL.

Same thing with DV. The rich abuse partners and children too.