The Late Sir Jimmy Saville: National Treasure, Charity Saint and Sexual Predator
 

A year since Sir Jimmy Saville passed away, to much mourning and nostalgic remembrance, the veil has been lifted and the halo has slipped to the ground, smashed into a thousand shards.

Well, I can't say as I was shocked. Though I always watched his shows as a kid, he also always gave me the creeps. Once I was older I heard odd things that made me wonder, and was able to better identify what it was about him that creeped me out so much. Other than his general eccentricity and wild appearance, which in and of itself would not have creeped me out.

What is shocking though, is a) the extent of his predatory behaviour, and b) the seeming collusion, or intimdated silence amongst the entertainment and journalistic community. And beyond, into the charities and organisations he worked tirelessly to promote and support.

For the Merkins who may not know who he was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile

That still doesn't get across how much of a household name he was for several decades.

Anyways. This week ITV screened a documentary, in which a former child protection investigator followed up on several accusations made against Saville since his death, by women (and one man) who claimed to have been sexually assaulted by him when they were still under the age of consent. Initially, this story came along in dribs and drabs, prior to the documentary being aired. And at first there was a general sense of unease at the idea of effectively trying the man in the media when he is no longer here to defend or account for himself.

But once the first few allegations started to filter through there have been more.

I watched the programme, and it was pretty explosive stuff. Right down to his involvement with Gary Glitter (famous child-friendly pop star and pedophile) and even his opinions in an unbroadcast audio interview in which he defended Glitter's actions.

The girls appear to all have been between the ages of 12 and 15. It was apparently, it now seems, an open secret in the entertainment community. Allegations were made to police which were not considered compelling enough to follow up. Charities he was involved with...like a reform school for troubled teenaged girls for instance...where he would apparently visit and select a few lucky girls for a drive out in his car. Journalists who all knew that he liked 'em young. A Junior BBC exec who turned up to a restaurant for a meeting with him and found him accompanied by a girl ('between 12 and 14...closer to 12 I thought' )and made no secret of the fact he'd spent the night with her, but was too intimidated by him to do anything.

The staff of the reform school, who treated a girl who refused advances and made a noise about it like a trouble making liar, locking her in a secure room for two days.

Higher up BBC execs of the day who may have colluded in the silence and blocked journalists from following a story. Though some story got through. A little. A couple of programs have touched on it ( Louis Theroux Meets, notably) and a handful of celebs have made allegations of things not being quite right.

Here's a bit more about it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012...?newsfeed=true

But now the personal angle: Mum reminded me recently of something she'd spoken of years ago and I had forgotten. When she was working in a Manchester club, aged 15, Jimmy Saville slapped her arse. Not slapped, really, more grabbed and squeezed. Couldn't keep his hands off the pretty young things.

Little clip of Colleen Nolan and Saville from the docu:

Did I tell my Jimmy Saville story here?
No, he didn't molest me. Or grab my arse.
But I did see him regularly at Stoke Mandeville and he always creeped me out.

There was one time when he was talking to my boyfriend about me, right in front of me, as if I wasn't there. At 17 I was probably already too old for him, but he made me feel like a piece of meat all the same.

Many people in this area have similar stories - at least about meeting him and feeling uncomfortable.

I just realized, rather annoyingly that I've spelt his name wrong. Doh.


[eta] Yeah, at 17 you'd have been too old for him:P

Not sure I agree with the paedophile label that's floating around in the press, mind you. All the girls appear to have been between 12 and 15. Thus far there's not been any mention of girls who hadn't developed sexually (though still clearly children in any other terms). So, he sounds like a control freak, sexual predator and child abuser, possibly rapist, but not paedo.

Try "Hebephile".

The "not a pedophile" tag is disputable. You might say hebes are pedes, hence hebephiles are pedophiles. Some might reply that in the past, the age of consent was twelve, and our extended youth is a modern construct.

I'm (relatively) okay with the idea of two 13-year-olds doing it. But a middle-aged adult, with the money and power and celebrity status, forcing himself upon youngsters, is straight up criminal.

I'd like to see this investigated. If upheld, Saville should be stripped of all titles, and I'd particularly like to see criminal charges against everyone who turned a blind eye or otherwise abetted this crap. Especially whoever was in charge of that reform school.

We have mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse here. Do you have that in the UK?

I'd forgotten all about Gary Glitter. After wikiing him I read about how he narrowly avoided the firing squad in Viet Nam where that is the penalty for child rape.
Not a bad idea, all things considered.

and Zen, the irony of a penal colony having stricter rules about kiddie diddling than the country that penalized them is not lost on this former colonist.

You know I don't know about mandatory reporting. I suspect not though. It's not something I've come across before as a criminal offence. Professionals who should have followed up on suspicions can face disciplinary action, and in cases of outright negligence or culpability can face criminal charges.


The issue has continued to snowball. It's all coming out now. Not just Savile, but the sexual harrassment and assaults experienced by women in the media almost as a matter of course during the 60s and 70s. And several other entertainers, currently unnamed, have been put into the frame.

An interesting little piece here about the overall culture of harrassment in general in the media during those decades:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19870676

A couple of notable women entertainers have spoken out about the harrassment they went through during their early careers. Sandy Toksvig and Liz Kershaw both have very similar stories of being groped by senior male colleagues (whilst on air in Kershaw's case, working in radio) and having their complaints met with disregard and disdain. In both cases the response to their complaints included being told they must be lesbians if they didn't enjoy it.



Savile himself is now suspected (and indeed his name came up during the original investigations into this situation but there was not enough evidence to pursue) of involvement in a an infamous children's home on Jersey, where kids were sexually assaulted and raped by the poeple in whose care they'd been placed. It went on for years and when it came out a few years ago, it rocked the nation. Absolutely horrific.

Scotland Yard are now following up on 120 lines of enquiry as regards Savile's activities, with potentially 30 + victims. He, Gary Glitter and two other unnamed entertainers are implicated in the rape of a girl, in his dressing room.

His family have removed the ornate memorial gravestone from his grave. Quietly, overnight. It will be stripped of its engraving, broken up and scrapped. Statues of him have vanished. His name has been removed from civic lists of honoured citizens, in Leeds.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-19893373

Re mandatory reporting of abuse, we (school) have to have regular Child Protection training by law, with a written record kept. It enables staff to recognise the different types of abuse and know how and who to report them to. In my case this is the class teacher or a member of the Senior Management Team.

Does it sound weird that I was upset to hear about the gravestone being destroyed?
I understand it being removed, and my gosh was it tacky! But somehow I feel it's a shame that it can't be erected somewhere more private. Nothing written on it was untrue after all. Removing all traces of his tomb from the face of this earth is a bit... Marquis de Sade.

My only quibble is that it's a bit premature. Accusations first, then investigation and trial if applicable, then vengance by angry mob.

That's ONE way to do it, but it's really not the preferred sequence of events for most mobs. Four out of five mobs prefer getting right to torches and pitchforks.

Well, there can't be a trial as the man is dead. There is an investigation going on, but the police have basically said, 'yeah...it's pretty damning.'

This owuld all be playing out very differently if he were alive.

It is certainly gathering speed and momentum, and is now being investigated by four (or maybe five) regional police forces with complainants coming forward across the country. I think this is partly because of the time frame when he was 'active' possibly from the late 1950s right through intil the late 1980s.

Toward the end of my working life I frequently spend days in Broadmoor Special Hospital, a maximum secure psychiatric hospital where many - but by no means all of the the inmates - had convictions for serial rape and murder and both. These were offences of a spectacularly violent nature and the majority of these men are socio-psycopathic individuals who will never again be safe to live in society. There were about a hundred women patients there and these he visited regularly, parked his little caravan in the grounds and had his own keys to the place with was basically access all areas. The younger women there were actually afraid of him but his power and national profile made complaint impossible. I met him a number of times and found him very cold, impossible to connect with verbally and his eyes were everywhere expet on the face of the person he was with. I didn't ever take a liking to him.

He had imense power. Apart from his UK decorations he wore a similar decoration awarded by the the then Pope and regularly spent time with Mrs Thatcher including visits to her country house (Chequers) for Christmas.

Taking his knighthood from him posthumously is not possible as it is a lifetime only award so dies with the recipient, so cannot now be touched. Claims for damages etc can though be made against his estate which is considerable. My guess is we have yet to hear the worst and my instinct is that he wasn't alone.

Broadmoor
 

CzinZumerzet, you may be interested in reading this story of growing up in Broadmoor as one of the administrator's children.

http://moreintelligentlife.com/conte...moor?page=full

My God that is so creepy, Cz!

Having read about the history of Broadmoor via Kindle, Limey, I must admit that this aspect of the story does interest me too.
Which makes it a small world CZ.

I'll follow that link when I have more time, Bruce.

Just watching an episode of the current series of The Thick of It, and a character just used the line: 'Dear Jim, will you please fix it for me to...'

Which was how the letters to Jim'll Fix It always started.

Suddenly that innocuous little bit of cultural nostalgia, recognisable to any brit, really jarred.

Interesting little piece on the BBC News site looking at the removal of monuments and acts of erasure of Savile's memory alongside similar responses to the Sandusky case over in the US:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20165466

Meanwhile, the sex abuse investigations have started, and arrests are being made and will continue to be made. There's even talk now of a possible paedophile connection to an aide to a former PM.

Top brass in various organisations including the BBC and some health authorities are finding themselves in the spotlight. Who knew what, when and how? Who gave permissions and access to vulnerable people? Who dismissed claims by victims?

And who decided to pull the Newsnight report that would have compromised the BBCs Christmas schedule of memorials to the late Savile? For what reason? And why, when questioned, did the editor give reasons he knew at the time to be false? Conspiracy or incompetence?

Things have taken a very dark turn, darker by far than the Savile scandal itself.

In the wake of the allegations against Savile, and then against the BBC for cover-ups and pulled sytories, some badly handled historic cases of abuse have been reopened.



One of the victims of that abuse attempted at the Waterhouse enquiry, to give names, descriptions and details of serious abuse committed outside the home, in other areas of the country with boys, himself included effectively sold/loaned for use by a paedophile ring extending way beyond the local area.

His evidence was disallowed, as beyond the remit of the enquiry and as constituting insufficient evidence for continued investigation. He is at the forefront now of trying to get this properly investigated.

At the time, as a lad, he got his hands on some of the photographs taken of the boys (himself included) being raped, some with the rapists clearly in view, including an advisor to the then Prime Minister. According to his testimony, when he went to the police, they took the photographs away and that was the last anybody saw of them. They also called him a liar.

Years later, when the Waterhouse enquiry was launched, lots of people were prosecuted and many went to jail: from the local area, from the home, from the paedophile ring that operated within it. But the men that came from outside, picking up boys in their expensive cars and taking them off to do horrific things to them were never prosecuted, and never investigated.

I saw him interviewed. He's calm, but clearly scarred by his experiences. He seems like someone who has been through hell and back, and now knows who he is. I was impressed and moved by him.


A second victim corroborates many of the details.


Full Newsnight report from last week. Terrifying the level of system breakdown during every stage:

Stuart Hall?
Et tu Brutus?
Oh no :sniff:

How can I ever relive the delight of Jeux Sans Frontières again?

I had it on VHS and was thinking of asking my bro to get it on DVD for Christmas (or give him my copy to have converted)

More recently he's been a commentator on 5 Live.
I rarely listen to live football, despite my digital radio being tuned into a sports channel, but I don't turn it off if he is on. Like Murray Walker and David Coleman he was one of my favourite pseudo-Uncles. Now he's one of the inappropriate kind.

One last memory before I forget him forever.
Penguins.

Fucking hell, I know. How many more friendly familiar faces from our youth are going to be uncovered as sex beasts?


If Tony Hart or Terry Nutkins end up on that list I'm done.

Got to wonder about Christopher Lillicrap though....

It happened to Elmo over here. I wasn't a huge fan, but still. :(

Yeah but the lad withdrew the allegations I think. That was one of those borderline of age of consent type things. There's a few of those in the current and ever growing sex abuse investigation.

I find those slightly less worrying than the younger and/or unwilling cases.

Like for instance, the late John Peel may have got a 15 year old pregnant whne he was in his late 20s. It's an abuse but it was also an ongoing 'relationship' rather than an unwanted assault.

Wrong, I think. And certainly illegal. And we can argue about whether a 15 year old is competant to give consent, but it's not really in the same league as some of the other cases.

And now Max Clifford.
But I wasn't ever not never going to buy a DVD featuring him anyway.

Jimmy Night...

University Rugby teams. What more is there to be said?

'Zactly.
Dirty birdies. Like squaddies.

I can tell stories of both that would make people heave (except Crimson Ghost). Work as a barmaid for a while and you get to hear and see a lot you decide to bury. Only in your mind of course. You need a big strong man to help you do it in real life. Given the right secateurs I couls probably manage the fingers though (Shallow Grave)

:facepalm:

Fred Talbot!?

Suddenly his giant map-leaping exploits don't look so charming...

I'm waiting for them to get Timmy Mallet.
Not for sexual abuse, just for sujecting children to his annoy.

If Timmy Mallet turns out to have been a kiddyfiddler, then the 80s are dead to me.

We had a controversy over a person in a similar role here. Charles Kuralt was a journalist who also had a very pleasant voice. He hosted a weekend talk show and narrated travel pieces across the US. He was involved in many philanthropic activities and had a reputation as a conservationist and naturalist.

After his death, it turned out that he had two families, although I gather that he was not technically a bigamist.

It's sort of like the US TV show "Green Acres", but with two wives;). Unlike some of the tawdry actions we're discussing here, it seems sort of idyllic. I also have to wonder if his wife didn't figure things out somewhere in those 29 years.

So today's Christmas cracker, as well as a lame joke, had a trivia question.

Well, the crackers were bought at a sale last February, so we can't blame the makers, but ... oyyyy....

ouch.


[eta] as a kid I never noticed that he was actually a physically imposing guy. Looking at some of the interviews from when he was young, I can imagine him being a bit of scary bastard if he wanted to be.

Rolf Harris.
Deary me.

And people talk about the good old days when it was safe for kiddies to play outside because there were no paedos and you never even had to lock your doors.
Turns out the kiddie fiddlers didn't have to raid council estates back then - they just got drunk on power and took what they wanted as perks of the job.

I know! I saw the news of it last week, i was like Nooooooo!


That said: he's not in the same tranch as Savile. This sounds more like the Hairy Cornflake - jailbait rather than kiddies, and one individual rather than a litany.

My mum loved rolf harris and as kids we were brought up on his music and shows. He still does the voice over in one kids show (olive the ostrich).

Anyway, life will go on regardless. Still, its a shame.

If Tom Baker ends up involved in any of this Imma break something up.



They should change the name from Operation Yewtree, to Operation Dismantle 70s Childhoods.

Bruce Forsyth, no!!!!

No, not Brucie.
Not yet.

Rolf Harris's songs are, with hindsight, a bit of a clue ... Two Little Boys, Jake the Peg (with my extra leg...), Tie Me Kangaroo Down ...

Tie the little boys down, sport
tie the little boys down
there's no one around sport
so tie the little boys down...

I don't even have to try, Rolf left that one wide open.

Plenty of room in this handbasket!

There appears to be a lot of show biz perverts in the Brit commonwealth.
Here we try to restrict them to Washington, DC, if we can. ;)

Harris hasn't actually been charged with anything yet has he?

only by the media

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I hope he isn't guilty, just so I can go on thinking he's a good person. I hate having childhood illusions smashed. It happens way too much.

A wise man once told me, "There are three things you will never find in this life: A perfect dry martini, a hooker that makes love with genuine emotion, and your lost innocence."

Losing my innocence is one thing. Having it dug up and stomped on until no record of its existence can be found is a little much :p

yeah, I was referring to Ali's childhood illusions, but I can see in the light of this thread how that could be read another way. Not really what I intended.

Stuart Hall.
There are evil puns and jokes to be made. But I won't.

Just bloody awful.

Any more news on Rolf? He's out of the media here now. I suppose I could google the British press.