Should I be an ant or a grasshopper?
 

That's the basic question.

We are a middle class family, and we live very frugally, and have built up a respectable nest egg.

We are constantly making sacrifices. Not spending money when we could just as easily throw caution to the wind and live for the moment.

My oldest (daughter) is in 8th grade. College will be here in 4 years.

I'll feel like a complete moron if the colleges look at our financial situation, take our nest egg from us, and then say "Ok, now that we have your nest egg, let's talk about financial aid" and start the negotiations from that point.

If I show up at the colleges financial aid office and have a much smaller nest egg, they will have less to take and then start the financial aid conversation at that point.

I'm afraid that I'm being a sucker by saving. Do any of you who have been through the college financial aid system or who work in that system know how it works?

We could buy new windows for the house, or a new furnace, or a new car (Ours is 17 years old.) We're turning down fun things like a zip line course in two weeks that the cub scouts are attending because it will cost $200. We're making sacrifices. Is it going to be worth it, or are we suckers?

College is so freaking expensive. It's like buying a house. We've got what I think is a big nest egg saved up, but it's only enough to pay for about 2 years of college for one kid, and we have two kids. We need to get them through 8 years of college.

I don't want them to be saddled with obscene amounts of debt, but I also don't want to be living so frugally if we don't really have to.

I welcome your input, jokes, snarky comments, etc.

"College will be here in 4 years."
 

Talk to the Infinite Monkey.

Ignore all imitators.

*panics* College is only 2 years away for us! I'd be interested in answers to this too, please, oh monkey of infinite wisdom and finite resources.

specify. avoid college degrees that are general or herd instinct. don't go into fields that compete with chinese, indian, or other willing to work for nothing things.

consider strongly, their taking a year or two off before college to continue growing up. the part of the brain controlling rational thinking is not developed until the age of 25. college before that time, unless you have a particularly unusually driven and focused child, is a complete and utter waste of money.

it really is. Start reading the blogs and such written by recent grads, look at what the under 29 set is doing with their lives now.

Unless they are planning on going into some sort of field that expects a prestigious degree go to a state school.

Learn to play the oboe or bassoon and go for a scholarship based on being the only one playing that instrument.

What sort of people are they? what do they want to do? what expectations do you and mrs glatt have of them? Would you be happy if they were house painters, or do they need to be doctors, lawyers or indian chiefs?

Most everything can be learned from books or OTJ training. One month in a busy photo studio is more education than four years in college photo classes.

I have no idea, If your kids were independent your finances wouldn't come into the picture. Free money for college has to come from somewhere and has to go to someone. Should that money be doled out according to need or ability or some combination of both?

Why are you living frugally? What is the point of that nest egg? Your retirement or your kids education? Education is far different from having a diploma, they are entirely unrelated things. What do you really want for your kids? A diploma from Harvard or for them to be educated?

What if your kids decide to skip college?

Your daughter could meet some guy with an education and marry up! Your other could opt for a military career and spend the next 20 years in uniform!

And since when are parents obligated to provide a four-year degree to a child?

Mine didn't even offer.

I was told flat out that college wasn't going to be a gift. If I wanted it, I had to pony up somehow.

I didn't, I've turned out (more or less) alright, but, I wish I had went (somehow). Maybe I wouldn't have had to do so much hard physical labor.

But...then again...I might have gotten where I am sooner, and if I made the same decisions, I wouldn't get to sit on my ass as long as I might.

Uh...yeah. Although I'm just an imitator and being horribly obnoxious for offering my ignorant and imposing viewpoints, but you seem to be a really nice and polite person, I will offer my two-cents. I am not sure how they do it now but about twenty something years ago, they will ask for the parents' tax returns. Essentially, they will see how much the parents make. How much in savings? I don't recall that question. Another way to help out with tuition is to apply for scholarships. There are all kinds of scholarships out there. My sister wasn't extradinorary, but she applied to whatever scholarship and got it. It really helped with grad school.

There ya go. Basically just two-cents worth. Good luck, Glatt.

Dang, I forgot.

Insert random snarkiness here.

I came here looking for answers and all I get is questions. :p:

My parents paid for my college and it was sort of understood that I'd send my own kids there if they wanted. My dad was a professor, so it's kind of the family way. In my department at my firm, you honestly don't need a degree to do the work we do, but we require one as a way from separating the slackers from those who can sit and work all day. (Although it didn't work for me. I'm a total Cellar slacker.) So I'm biased towards a college degree, and in this county, the overwhelming majority of people have them, so there is tremendous peer pressure to get one. I believe Arlington is the most educated county in the country. Still, I'm aware that in this economy, people graduating with college degrees aren't getting jobs.

I honestly don't care what makes my kids happy and able to pay the bills. I just want them to be independent and hope they will be happy.

My daughter, the 8th grader, is virtually perfect in academics. I think she's had straight A's since they started giving out letter grades. She has no trouble with school work at all. She is brilliant, however she is not curious about the real world at all and would be happy to just read books in her room all the time. She doesn't like trying new things. I think because she's afraid to fail at them. So she reads. She plays soccer and plays the trombone but is not skilled at either one enough to even hope for a scholarship. The one thing she does show interest in is animals, although it's an abstract interest. She hasn't spent any time around them. She just this week snagged a volunteer position at the local Nature Center, so every Thursday she will be helping to take care of the animals and do similar chores. That should be really good for her. I hope it opens her world up a little bit. She's well liked at school, but doesn't really hang out with her friends much after school. She's just in her room. I can picture her going to college and doing very well, but I can't picture her working anywhere. She says she wants to be a writer or a veterinarian.

My son, the 5th grader, has some trouble in school because he hates to do the school work. He gets decent grades (B's), but compared to his sister, he's not as academic. He is smart and very curious about the world. He's always making stuff and taking things apart and wants to cook in the kitchen, and if I'm working on a project or something, he gets right in there to see what I'm doing and wants to try it too. He knows how to install a toilet, change a tire, and make an omelet. He's three years younger than his sister but far exceeds her in knowing how to do things and wanting to try new things. He's covered in scars because he's fearless. He plays soccer and saxophone. He's nothing special in soccer and it's too soon to know if he'll be good with a sax. He says he wants to be an architect, but I can picture him doing just about anything.

As far as savings go, we have a big nest egg in 401Ks for retirement, and I'm not going to touch that until retirement. We have other savings that I consider the nest egg that might get spent on stuff and is for emergencies and stuff. That's what I figure colleges are going to look at and take before they give us a penny.

This question came up because we have finally decided after years of talking about it that we really need to buy a second car. We went used car shopping over the weekend, but didn't have much time and are still not sure what we want. A minivan would be useful some of the time, but a pain the rest of the time, or a mid sized sedan would be a good compromise. So that got me thinking about money.

The ant and the grasshopper only had themselves to worry about. There was no college waiting to take away the ant's stash of food. If colleges are giving away aid, and it's based on need, a person with a big bank account isn't going to look needy.

Thanks Lola, that's helpful.. If that's still the case, that's encouraging.

You might be able to request a financial aid application from some college, or maybe even your school's guidance counsellor, to see what sort of things they ask.

Glatt, I don't know if this will provide any real info, but:

Filling Out the Free Application for Federal Student Aid

Thanks Grav! I honestly haven't even tried looking myself. I was hoping somebody just knew.

but from that link, one of the bits of information requested is:
They want to take a peek at my nest egg.

Solution: buy a farm the year before college!

But not THE farm!!!

Here's the reality (or at least the reality I experienced.)

Whether you spend the nest egg, or whether you don't... you won't be getting need-based financial aid in any useful amount. Need-based aid goes to people who are poor, and solidly middle class families just don't get any. My parents had no nest egg, and we thought my FAFSA looked pretty needy, yet one college said I qualified for nothing, while the other offered me a grand total of $500 a year (their tuition at the time was $30,000 per year.)

Merit-based aid is where it's at. Do you think your daughter has the academic skills to be a National Merit Scholar? (This is determined by PSAT scores her junior year.) If so, she can get a full ride from several state schools. If not that, will she be in the top 10% of her class by GPA? (Getting straight A's doesn't necessarily guarantee this.) Top 10% is an important academic cutoff for a lot of schools to offer merit-based aid as well.

And finally, I'll throw in my standard rant about college costs: state schools, state schools, state schools. Success is not increased simply by attending a stupidly expensive school. It's about picking a meaningful major first, and choosing a solid program second. In Austin, for example, it is a widely known fact that medical offices prefer nurses who graduated from Austin Community College (maybe $1500 a year,) rather than the University of Texas ($25,000 per year,) because the program is simply better. The nurses coming out of ACC have hands-on experience, while the UT students are only book-educated.

In fact, speaking of community colleges... if she still feels pretty directionless, but is a good student, you might try looking into having her take one or two classes at the local community college while she's in high school. Sometimes you can get equivalent high school credit for them, sometimes you just get a small head start on some college credits, but the important thing is she gets to try out the college experience, and figure out if there are some specific classes that interest her. Sometimes the smart kids are directionless because they're bored, and if you find that one thing that inspires her, she'll be off and running.

Afraid of having any attempt, personally rewarding or not, critiqued in microscopic detail? Sounds like a prime target for the first ne'er-do-well with a nefarious social life.

Becoming the next Neil deGrasse Tyson could be expensive, however my buddy, the "Joe-the-Plumber" contractor, has a fleet of cars/motorcycles, and a million+ house at the DE shore.

I'd bet not many people die wishing they have more savings.

A pain? The pain of feeling you're not sacrificing enough? The pain of taking up an extra 6 inches of community parking space? The pain of a couple mpg less even though without it you have to make an extra trip? The pain of not being able to show your brilliance at creative solutions when shit happens, as it always does?

C'mon man, live a little, you've already fucked up the park designed to shield the residents from the bustling crowds. :p:

Ummm..yeah, for you and yours, shcolarships are the be all and end all and are a effing business at this point...there are just all kinds! Learn all you can about what scholarships your kid can earn and pronto.

True, but the trick is to die at the right time.

glatt,

As a financial aid professional for 11 years, I think I can clear up a few misconceptions and offer a bit of guidance. I'll do it in "bullet" points the best I can. Honestly, we could talk for hours on these subjects. So I'll just post stuff as it comes to my mind.

1) Dependent vs Independent: a lot of students get upset because they don't meet the criteria for independency as defined by the Dept of Ed. I understand their point, some of them: they're living on their own...maybe their parents don't give a hoot about their education...and it seems unfair to make them report parental information. However, an independent student with no dependents doesn't need to make a whole lot of money to be clear out of the running for pell grant, whereas a family with a modest/decent income can be eligible because of a number of things that are taken into consideration in the methodology: number in household, number in college (when you have 2 in college you'll get more income exclusion due to that), years until parent's projected retirement, two working parents have some employment exclusion because it costs for two people to work outside the home (because of things like childcare, transportation, meals),etc.

The best thing I learned in my early days was how to hand calculate an EFC (expected family contribution which is the number that is calculated when a FAFSA is submitted.) There is so much more to it than "we make this" so "we'll get this." Learning this manually really opened my eyes to how it works and helped me better advise students.

2) There is a space for 'cash, savings, and checking' and if you have substantial savings the Dept will indeed expect some of that (not all) to be utilized in educating your child. This field is self-reporting and is not a verifiable element if the family gets randomly selected by the processing center for 'verification' (as approximately 1/3 of FAFSA apps are.) The following manual has worksheets in it, with tables, so you can see how much of a bite of it they might take. http://ifap.ed.gov/fsahandbook/attachments/1213AVG.pdf

3) As to 'owing your child a four year degree' it is the view of the Dept of Ed that a parent is indeed responsible for their child's education TO THE EXTENT THEY ARE ABLE. My feeling is that, as good parents like you are, you do want to give your kids advantages and I believe parents need to sacrifice a bit so their kids can get that education. Mine did; they didn't go to college and they were damn sure we would.

4) Scholarships are indeed important and there are SO many ways to get those. Apply through the school; apply for the database through a site such as finaid.gov; visit civic organizations. It all adds up. Students need to be very proactive in this search.

5) Many wonderful students are saving a ton of money by doing their first two years at a community college then transferring those credits to university. I see a lot of that, and it makes sense. Get the gen-eds out of the way, transfer to school of choice with that savings still there to use or at least student loan borrowing power they didn't have to use at the CC. These aren't your old school community colleges (this one, in fact, was written up in a majorly major big city newspaper as a model for what CCs should be.)

6) A useful tool is the Fafsa forecaster: which can give you estimates on what you might expect. http://studentaid.ed.gov/fafsa/estimate

7) All FA offices operate under EVER-CHANGING federal regulations, but many office policies vary in their administration.

8) Please be aware of some shady schools (not naming names, no way) who never tell you that the credits you get there will never transfer to another school. I imagine your kids would be leaning towards a more traditional education, anyway.

9) You can buy a farm but you have to live on a working farm or else it just counts as another asset. Back in the day they actually wanted to know the value of your home then felt it was unfair to expect a family to sell their home to pay for college. ;)

If you have specific questions feel free to ask here or PM.

Your kids are 4 years away and you are right to start planning: that puts you way ahead of the ballgame. Keep in mind that things could also be very very different in 4 years, the way the regs change.

Do you have a financial advisor? If not you might consider it: how best to utilize your saved money while keeping in mind your kid's college education.

Well, of course that was part of my apprehension about posting here, but I would be remiss if I didn't offer an insider's view. ;)

Thanks! :)

There's a lot there to digest. I'm going to poke around int hose links and I'm sure I'll have questions.

You're the best!

Our family lives by this advise.

But transfer students need to be well-aware...
When they do transfer, there is a different world to be negotiated.

The straight-A student in high school and/or community college is sometimes lost
in the herd of 3rd and 4th year students who have already survived the weed-out processes,
and formed their more demanding "adult-level" of study habits.

What was that about people needing more hats? You know I love you, too.

STOP STOP with the bad spelling. My fucking brain is about to explode.

(Not you specifically, Lamp. It's just everyone today. The Devisive Sceptics needing Advise.)

I got your hat right here:

You know I inherited one of those from my father when he passed away. Sadly, my wife put it in the dryer and the orange hair turned into a very short afro.

I'll try harder to take your advice.

mia colpa :rolleyes:

Oh, and clod referred to taking college course at the CC while still in HS.

In Ohio we have PSEOP (post secondary enrollment options program.)

Many student graduate from HS and receive an associates at the same time! Talk about a leg up!

This article says 'various states' but all I see mentioned are Minnesota and Ohio. You may have something similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Se...llment_Options

Well, my daughter is not in high school yet, and she's already taking 3 high school classes, so if (when) she does well in those, that will already give her a head start.

It's funny though, because the teachers are telling her how these grades will count towards college applications. I feel like she's still my little girl who was just in elementary school, and people are talking to her about college already.

Jest say three Hale Marries and you'll be dissolved.

Don't forget about the military. It is a great way to fund an education

What Sarge said. I believe all HS grads should do a couple years in the service. Everbody would benefit.

Do more growing up in 2 years than in the previous 12.

My friend paid for her college as a reservist. Now she's working at a college near mine and gettiing her masters. No way her parents would have saved for it. Yet she and her sisters are all in great jobs because they did it on their own. Friend is still a reservist, a medic. Plus they're all gorgeous so I hate them. ;)

I put myself through college. Full time day job, full time night school, 4.0 GPA. Grueling and the only way I made it was because I really, really wanted it.

My kids did not get a college education paid for by me. However, my son, now 24, is back at home and working full time while attending college. I am willing to provide food and shelter if he covers his bills and tuition and puts forth the effort to juggle work/school. I will do the same for my daughters, if they so desire.

On a side note...I am now 50+ yrs old and spent a great deal of my past working multiple jobs while scrimping, sacrificing, and going without. A couple of years ago, it occurred to me that I was missing out on what "life" was supposed to BE. Where were the memories, the adventures, the FUN? Everything was work, work, save, save, one day we'll get there....meanwhile, an important facet of life was missing. So now, while not extravagent, we manage a few luxuries (kindle, ipad, laptop, nice car) and we go on trips twice a year. One involves hotels, flights maybe, and car rentals while the other is simpler, with camping, hiking, tubing, etc.

So while you are working towards the future, don't forget to actually LIVE while you have the chance. There are no guarantees that you (or anyone) will even get a future. Don't miss chances to enjoy each other and the marvels around us while you can.

Excellent advice!

Swim, Hebe, SWIM!

I'm strongly in favour of the gap year (or two) strategy, especially if the goal is to be educated rather than getting a fancy bit of parchment. Having some kind of job (hang on ... thinks about US economy ... hmm...) or even better, travelling, will be at least as good in terms of learning stuff and developing as a person.

I think you're a bit strong dissing education for the under 25s, and good quality schooling is education - but by no means all there is to education.

This is wise. Somewhere there is a balance between planning for the future and enjoying the present.

The only original thought I have here is - can you move to Australia? Send the kids to uni here, the govt picks up 80% of the tab, the other 20% or so is "HECS", a form of government managed student loan, with interest at CPI, no repayments until your income exceeds a certain threshold, and if you bugger off back the the US when you graduate, you'll never have to pay.

Australia educates its citizens? What are you, a bunch of pinko commies?

Speak up, will you, I can't hear you over the sound of my health care. ;)

An increasing number of British students are going to Uni in the Netherlands. It's just cheaper all round, and the lectures are in English anyway.

That might have been enough to tempt me to go back in the day.
I'm sure the option was available even then, but although I felt adventurous I had a very narrow view of the world.

Most graduates I know who moved away from their University location still see it as a second home. How wonderful to have one in another country.

Screw it, you don't need to save, just use rebates :haha:

should I be a Grant or an Assgroper?

Do you have Asperger's?

No, I just walk that way

You should be the grasshopper glatt.

College is fucking expensive, second only to ignorance. There are different degrees of ignorance, just as there are different degrees in college. Finding which degree suits you, or more importantly, suits your kid is kind of up to her. Spending money on her higher education is unavoidable, regardless of which degrees are pursued.

Having debt upon graduation is like starting a race with hobbles on, and there is a definite relationship between the amount of debt and the how hobbled your newly minted graduate is. I have read horror stories of new graduates starting their careers with many tens of thousands of dollars of debt--it's impossible. It is avoidable though, and every effort should be made to diminish the outstanding balance. Well, every effort within reason. Like... DO NOT raid, impoverish, reduce, fold, spindle or otherwise mutilate your retirement savings, not the capital nor the rate at which you're saving. I can't emphasize this enough. Better to pay in longer time in school than to pinch your retirement savings.

As for your questions about what's counted in the FAFSA and what comprises the (heart stopping) "Expected Family Contribution", I defer to those with greater knowledge. But like any other difficult program, losing weight, saving for retirement, maximizing your fuel economy, etc, etc, the goal won't be reached by a few JACKPOT actions. Count on success by the sum of many small actions. Economize where you can, over and over. The little actions can add up. Especially the part about starting as early as you are, thinking now about college in the coming years.

I suggest you look into college saving accounts, the particular numeric tax code escapes me at the moment (529??). In Washington, we have a program called GET, for Guaranteed Education Tuition. You buy a certain number of credits at current market price and they're good indefinitely. Compared to the rate of inflation for college tuition around here, it's like found money. But it is still expensive. They're transferrable so if your kid doesn't wind up going to school, they can be used by someone else.

Minimize your kid's debt, but not at the expense of your retirement. That's my main sermon.

I think you're describing the ant.

I am describing the ant.

I lost my mind back there, but it's no great loss.

You're right ANT ANT ANT ANT ANT ANT ANT ANT ANT ANT.

Thank you for reading for comprehension.

I think glatt is right. Hey, did you mean the ant? :confused:

Yes.

Oh. Ok. I just wondered if you meant ant.

I did.

That's good. I was concerned.

Whew.

Uncle!

bravo. :)