Ambassador Murdered
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19570254 Killed over a low budget movie, really? 9/11 celebration? This really shines the hard light of day on our ongoing engagement with the Islamic world. Answers, I have none.

I want to be a live and let live kind of guy when it comes to the Muslims, but I don't think they all feel the same way. I'm not sure any of them do.

I also have no answers.

This is the sort of thing that gives them all a coat with the same paint brush. What kind of person does this sort of thing? I KNOW there are zealots and weirdos in the US but when they do this sort of thing they are prosecuted. This probably will be OUR problem and we'll have to do all the legwork/prosecution IF the person is ever even found which is unlikely. I wonder about these people as a whole. I wonder why they are so...so...very NUTS about this stuff. Mohammad isn't Allah, for Christ's sake. He's a doooooooooood. A man. Or does he claim divinity? I dunno that much about it - I do know that innocent people who are trying to fucking calm this area of the world down are getting killed. I thank Allah every day that I'm not a woman living in Muslim-ville.

The Pope is man's connection to god. What the Pope says is god's word. So pedophilia that was all but protected by the church is acceptable. The Pope has even ordered Catholic doctrine to be imposed on US laws. Even abortion debates are only religion imposed on others.

They are only more violent while doing what so many Christians also do? That makes them evil and domestic Christians good?

Nonsense. Religion is only a relationship between one man and his god. The minute any religious belief is imposed on anyone else (ie an ambassador), then the religion is based in Satanism. An honest religion does not care what others say. Because honest religion does not affect any neighbor, iman, priest, rabi, minister, bishop, or religious text. An honest religion is only a relationship between one man and his god. An honest religion does not impose their beliefs on anyone else.

Tragedy. Lets just hope the radials on both sides don't cause rifts between the rational players in the US-Libya relationship.

Made me wonder if Obama or Romney had weighed in on this yet, so I looked it up, and Romney is a prick.

Well that would make them easy to spot. :haha:
I agree it's highly unlikely. One report said it was a run-of-mill torches & pitchforks mob, like have attacked our embassies around the world many times. But they were accompanied by a handful of very heavily armed men. I realize most everyone over there carries an AK much of the time, but this seemed to indicate most of the mob did not, but this handful carried even more.
He claimed to be a prophet, who set down a guide to better living... like a medieval Martha Stewart. And as I understand it, what he outlined for the followers was pretty cool. However, the movers and shakers who claimed to be leading the masses in his teachings succumbed to the same power trip that the clerics of Jesus, Buddha, Pele, etc, did. Who would that be, certainly not the Israelis, NATO, or US... as least not since 2003. Unless you mean just Libya, but that doesn't mean much with the whole region simmering.

:D

By borderline lying? The Romney campaign? Never.

Timeline of events:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...nology/262264/


Well it seems Obama's is sympathizing with the attackers by sending drones:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/globa...tackers/56791/

@ Tril: try to bear in mind most of what we see of the muslim world is the bad stuff. That's what creates urgent situations and commands media attention.

In amongst all that insanity that we see, are ordinary people trying their hardest to live their lives, provide for their children, survive the various crises, and at the same time try and deal with all the ordinary stuff that breaks the best of us at times. There are doctors and nurses, teachers and engineers, bakers and road sweepers and people who rescue abused animals and campaign for things which many might think almost trivial in the face of regional meltdown.

They're just people. Muslims are just people. At various times in western history quite the wrong people have been allowed the full reigns of power and people have died for nothing in mass hysteria or cold, administrative abuse. At the centre, always, are people. Just people. However alien our cultures may seem to each other at times, we all eat, sleep, fuck and worry, raise our babies and cry when our loved ones are taken from us.

When you come to visit I'll introduce you to my family, I'm sure you'll feel different. From what we see on TV and read on the internet though, you might struggle to convince many of them in return that all Americans are 'live and let live' kind of folk like you.

A non-aggressive post.

If I judged all Catholics on the actions of the IRA I would have to kill myself.
If I judged all Muslims on those I personally knew I would have to convert.

It's not because these people are Muslim.
It's because they are crazy Arabs.

an attempt at levity

An interesting take on events:

http://world.time.com/2012/09/11/cai...unleash-havoc/

I know, I know.
Shucks.

But still. Like many oppressive regimes, they treat their women like complete and utter shite. Ok, so do a lot of Christians. But, hopefully, HOPEFULLY, Christians are merely raping children whilst Muslims are stoning women for the crime of them being raped. That's a lame attempt at levity that prolly didn't work but I tried.

Ok. I"m not being really fair here, I realize, but I just watched a goofy film one of my FB friends (my best pal from gradeschool) posted and it has inflamed my feelings about them as was intended by said film.

You know what is REALLY weird? This girl was my best bud in gradeschool and now that she's all grown up, she's one of those Apocalypse Babes who posts all kinds of stuff on FB about how the END is coming/near/nearly here/etc. I never woulda guessed her for that.

She DID smoke a boatload of pot in high school i heard...

Oh, yeah. And part of the Yangtze River ran red yesterday or the day before. She posted that, too.

Hmm... I may just have found God.

Good pic, Pete. I saw those signs on the news coverage last night. Kind of gives one hope for basic humanity.

I'm in no condition to cite sources at this hour, but as Bruce said in post #7, from what I heard on NPR and, i think, MSNBC (could be mistaken on that count), the actual invaders in Benghazi were backed by people who could only have been armed by either an international terrorist syndicate or an organized national paramilitary group - a group of the type not backed by the recent popular uprising's government but more likely by the former pro-Gaddafi paramilitary thug organizations, though to be fair their arms could easily have been reappropriated - and so it's patently absurd to try to blame the wider Muslim society in Libya for the rioting or embassy assault, and even more ridiculous to try to blame all Muslims internationally for the wider sociopolitical context that led to the attack, or for anything resembling support for the murders.

I think I just got served by Ibby. What is she, 19 or something?

good post, Ibby. like I said, I was posting hastily. I was pissed off b/c this ambassador guy sounded like a real friend to those people. See? I was Romney-esque. talking before knowing all the facts.

It was Romney

;)

Yeah. So was I.

But look at what we did. We went to a message board and posted some pretty non-inflammatory words.

I wrote:
I'd take back that last sentence now. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of Muslims are also live and let live. Just look at the numbers. In any angry, rioting, murderous mob you probably have only 1,000 maximum. Probably less than that. But let's say it's 1,000 people per mob.

There are about 2 billion Muslims in the world. So that's like 99.99995% of Muslims that are not attacking US embassies and killing the occupants.

And then the reports trickling in that this may have been a military action, and not a mob that was heavily armed changes the flavor of what actually went down.

When I made that post yesterday, the only news I had heard was that this heavily armed Muslim mob killed the Ambassador because of a YouTube video, and similar mobs were forming in other countries. I only saw reports of Muslims in favor of the mobs. Since then, I've seen a few Muslims condemning those acts of violence, and that's restoring my faith in mankind. I'd like to see more of that. Imagine a huge peace protest. Wouldn't that be cool?

Rather interesting is a rumored Isreali, living in California, who is credited with creating that video. He cannot be found. Is rumored to have gone into hiding. His name appears to be ficticous. Just like a super PAC that the Supreme Court said has the right to say anything they can pay for.

According to the Supremes, he has the right to vocalize an opinion as long as it is not a felony and he can pay for it. Therefore any fictional person or corporation can do this. Responsiblity no longer applies.

I don't know if it could be considered huge, but many in Benghazi are one step ahead of you.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/polit...s-libya/56803/

I'm glad to see that. Supposedly a larger percentage of Libyans are still supportive of the US because of our help with overthrowing Qaddafi. According to what Clinton and Obama said in their statements, it was the Libyans who brought the injured Americans to the hospitals.


Edit: And just when we thought we there was hope, protestors in Yemen storm the US embassy there.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/globa...testors/56813/

And the response of Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi...

http://af.reuters.com/article/commod...8KCJ5X20120912

Thanks Mursi that'll help

We may not agree, and he won't get anywhere doing it, but it's the civilized thing to do.

There are no laws in America that apply. Mursi is tacitly stating his support for *Egyptian* laws, says David Frum:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-khomeini.html

Another take

The gist is that this was a planned attack in hopes of provoking a violent response from the Marine guards there. Apparently, this is a fairly standard tactic in certain locations around the world, not just the Arab world.

In related news, the AP has published the identity of the person who made the film at the heart of this incident.

******************
Law enforcement has confirmed that the anti-Muslim movie blamed for attacks at US diplomatic buildings around the world was made by Los Angeles filmmaker Nakoula Basseley Nakoula.

The Associated Press reported early Thursday that Nakoula, 55, is responsible for the "Innocence of Muslims,” the film that was said to ridicule the prophet Muhammad and, in turn, prompt violent assaults on US land overseas, including missions in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and the US Embassy in Yemen.
*****************

So, we now have allegations that both the pretext AND the result are both staged events. Hmmmmm.

Draw your own conclusions.

Pam

Coptic Christian.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3837...copts-film.htm

Drink every time tw blames Israel or an Israeli and gets it wrong.

You must drink

Apparently the Coptic Christian dude How'd that work for ya, Coptic Dude?

Fed wonderfully well into his world view and confirmed him in his own hatred, thankyouverymuch :P

Hey! I smoked a boatload of pot when I was that age (assuming you mean senior high = sixth form college here:p).

I know you know this stuff Tril. You're a good egg. And we're all entitled to be unfair or unreasonable sometimes :p

I think the only reason Christian Fundamentalists aren't as deadly as Islamic Fundamentalists is because our legal system has checks in place against murder. If we had a Christian version of Sharia law there'd be a lot more Christian Soldiers marching Onward as to war...

With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Let's take metaphor and make it literal!

You didn't live through The Troubles.
Not fundies, but rabid as frothing dogs all the same.

There were riots in Belfast this month over the routes of marches (link to BBC website)
Who do the Orangemen march in support of? Good King Billy.
That's William of Orange. He died in 1702.

I'm not beating a dead horse about Islam, I really appreciate the later posts people have made. I'm just beating my usual dead donkey-shaped pinata about the violence I grew up with.

Listened to a story about this on NPR on the way back from class just now. It's not online yet but will be soon.
Someone called the Associated Press and blamed the video on an Israeli-American, who turned out to not be a real person. The person who called turned out to be Nakoula, the filmmaker - who is on probation after serving two years for an $800,000 bank fraud. One of the terms of his probation was that he not use the Internet - but it was under his israeli-american pseudonym that he posted the video to youtube.
The video itself may not be prosecutable, but we can probably go after the guy on probation violation anyway...

I didn't hear any of this about the filmmaker until driving home tonight. Surfing the stations I heard two conservative and/or religious station ranting about the attention being given to the filmmaker.

I initially agreed that he had the right to promote his views. If, however, he deliberately posed as an Israeli Jew with the intent to incite violence, then he should have the book thrown at him.

BTW, is it me or is Romney coming off looking bad in all this. He gets the facts wrong, mostly by rushing ahead to beat out the administration, and then pushes forward instead of acknowledging the error. Not a good combination. It's more likely to be a recipe for another 10 year, trillion dollar war.

Hardcore conservatives and pundits like Rush are defending him, but I think he lost points with independents.

Al-Qaeda released a video the morning of Sept. 11, urging Islamists to attack America to avenge the drone-strike killing of Abu Yahya al-Libi (lit. of Libya). Every piece of reporting that's coming out is confirming that the attack on the consulate was an armed militant organization with a complex assault plan. Rachel Maddow started her show tonight (and is still talking about the connections and evidence, including part of an al-Jazeera report that included interviews with witnesses to the attack who say there was no PROTEST before the attack - just an attack!) explaining the evidence that the attack had little or nothing to do with the video sparking protests in Cairo and Yemen and elsewhere. When the video goes up on the MSNBC website around midnight I'll try to post it - the first fifteen minutes alone are absolutely revelatory.

Did you bother to read the second paragraph? I kept it short and you still missed the point.

I think I've managed to get a link to the relevant opening section of tonight's Rachel Maddow Show that highlights the Al-Qaeda/terrorist connections to Tuesday's attack on the Benghazi consulate. The highly-relevant story is only fifteen minutes or so, and well worth the watch, if you want to be highly informed to talk about the situation, I think.

I think I might have a particular level of interest in this story, considering that my mother works for the State Department and my dad works, as a Department of Defense civilian, closely with State Department personell at our overseas State Department missions, and that I plan to work for the State Department as a Foreign Service Officer as soon as I have my bachelor's degree. I'm closely associated with and highly interested in the State Department, and therefore, our State Dep't officers and their well-being. So, I'm trying to be as up-to-date and informed on this situation as possible - and since the Cellar is one of the places I am the most engaged on politics and current events, I want to share with you what I learn about their operations, especially when it becomes part of important American news and policy.
This attack was NOT a rowdy torch-and-pitchfork mob of angry Libyan civilians overrunning our state department mission (consulate) in Benghazi. this was an organized and planned terrorist/militant attack on (percieved) American imperialism and diplomacy by a terror-affiliated paramilitary organization. the attack on our Yemeni embassy, detailed later in the show (after the first fifteen minutes), which resulted in the destruction of Embassy property, vehicles, and defenses, but NOT loss of American life, is what happens when mobs attack our facilities abroad. It's deplorable, but not at all the same as the attack on the Benghazi consulate. Rachel is right to question the very notion that the Benghazi attack had ANYTHING to do with the shitty-ass, pathetic fifteen-minute youtube video that cities across the Muslim world are protesting.

Wrong Pele.

He is the God of my youth, I'm mature enough to know that I strayed.

Muslims take their independent film making seriously.

A Benghazi consulate attack was well coordinated and planned according to the NY Times. In particular was the second attack. Apparently the attackers had an inside informant. So they knew exactly when and where to attack the rescue convoy carrying American and Libyan personal.

Video from some hiding person may only be an excuse. A simultaneous and maybe unrelated event. The consulate attack occurred without any preceding demonstrations, according to interviews reported in the NY Times. The first attack was sudden and unexpected.

That video was posted on the first of July. I'm sure they were saving it as an excuse to stir up shit on 9-11. I'd also bet they planned this attack to coincide with the widespread fomentation of demonstrations so it would appear to be a result of ordinary Muslims outraged, rather than being an obvious terrorist attack.

The impression I have is that the Benghazi attack had absolutely nothing to do with the video, but since it happened somewhat concurrently with the Cairo protests that were about the video, it was a reasonable first impression that they were related, until more facts came in.

Since then, protests in other countries have been about not being upstaged by Cairo and Benghazi, rather than about the video per se.

Just to say, although I do not tar all Muslims with the same brush and object when I feel other people do so, I am revolted by the band-wagon-jumping and in my mind unjustified killing and rioting over this silly, small budget film.

A French photographer took photos of the Duchess of Cambridge's boobies, am I trying to burn down the French Embassy? No. Although they burn our sheep and all that.

I do appreciate people's different sensibilities, but this is civil unrest dressed up. Although I accept it is on countries going through a state of flux, it draws in completely innocent people and therefore should be condemned.
Stay home and pray if you think your God has been insulted.

I said the same about the riots in London last year, which disgusted me.
Forge ties within your own community rather than burning it down.
Stay home and teach your children that education helps avoid stereotyping.

I doubt all these protests are solely because of the movie. There is a of built up anger among some Muslims in these countries and it seems to all have come out because of the movie.

A talking-head used a phrase that I thought appropriate.

Some people are just "waiting to be insulted"

I didn't know the talking heads even knew what The Cellar was! ;)

It characterizes an adult who is still a child.

FIFY

But yes, I agree with your post as written.

The below popped up on my facebook feed, immediately after reading this thread. I thought it was rather apropos, so here it is:

13 powerful images of Muslim rage

Personally speaking, having lived in the middle east for several years, I don't see "muslims" as any different than "christians" or "catholics" or "atheists", for example. There are fanatics and and hatemongers among most religious groups, including muslims. They don't speak for all of them. And a few religious fanatics don't represent an entire culture or country, by far.

He looks like he has jizz in his hair.

to be fair, he kinda looks like that irl too...

An acquaintance of mine--who, if you'd pressed me, I might have guessed was Muslim, but I'd never thought about it before--has suddenly started dropping Masha Allah and Insha Allah all over the place in her emails to me. I figure maybe she's felt persecuted recently, or is trying to show the world in her small way that a normal person like her can be Muslim too.

Except the funny thing is she's not normal, she's a big ol' bag of crazy. But only in a suburban ill-equipped mother kind of way, not a significant way.

goosebumps.

Thank you Pete.