"She", not "he", guys
 

If he has a penis, is genetically male, then -- despite *self-definition -- he is 'he'.

Yes?

No?

Opinions?









*that Ibram self-defines as 'girl' is fine by me; that he believes any one else is obligated to address him as a girl (for no other reason than because he wants it that way) is absurd.

My gender is not open for "philosophical" discussion, and i'm reporting this post.

report: "harassment, rude, just not fucking acceptable. you wanna start a thread about how you hate tranny fucks thats fine; you don't get to start a thread attacking me PERSONALLY for it."

define "...guys..."

Define 'cunt.'

If gender is so fluid, then what I may view as man or woman, my perception, is mine. Right? I may think henry a fine woman. He may think otherwise.

For someone who preaches understanding and acceptance of all things, ibs, you were awfully quick to call out jbk in that other thread.

And that's why you're mad. You got called out on your intolerance and you look hypocritical.

nope. i don't accept intolerance. comparing bullshit to the holocaust is intolerance of the highest degree. you don't have to agree, but that's not be being quick to not-accept. some things are just fucking wrong.

Are you saying that objective 'right' and 'wrong' exist? Or are you just expressing an opinion?

Not up for a fight tonight ... just throwing the philosophical question out there.

... I don't see it that way. hq named Ibram specifcally. hq started the thread with Ibram specifically in mind. Then, Ibram complained about hq's remarks about Ibram specifically. That's not being a cunt. That's not being a hypocrite. That's objecting to being called something or another. hq can say and think what he likes, and Ibram can respond as he likes.

What if I called you "stupid"? I could say the same thing as the above quote:

You may well object, and strenuously, to being referred to like that, but that wouldn't make it hypocrisy, even if you'd had made a dumb mistakes in the past. It's just objecting to someone else's statements about you.

For the record, I don't remember anything from Ibram indicating he . Also for the record, I don't think you're stupid. Quite the opposite, I think you're whip-smart. But I still don't agree with your analysis of Ibram's reaction.

According to the usual western gender constructions yes. But it isn't really that simple. Nor has it ever been. Lots of cultures recognise broader understandings of gender (as well as narrower in other cultures) than ours currently does. Some cultures accept a 'third gender'. Some grudgingly, some with hallowed respect. Some cultures with highly regulated gender roles will nontheless allow a widow or single woman to adopt a masculine identity in order to lead their household. Referred to as 'he' and 'him' from that point on.

The more we learn about gender the more it seems that neither biological gender, nor psycho-sexual gender( or indeed cultural understandings of gender) are anywhere near as black and white as we once understood them to be.


All that aside: why not accept someone else's self-definition? They're the only ones who know what life is like on the inside of their own heads.

cause dana, basic human decency and courtesy is way too hard for fucked up people like him. duh.

For the record, bigv, I was referring to ibs calling henry a cunt, in that other thread.

But I get it. We must all be tolerant but ibs doesn't have to be tolerant. Because he's different and special? We're all different and special.

Id like a manual, because I'm unsure of the rules here: who gets to go off on whom, and about what? Is there a decider?

Basic human decency and courtesy = 'you sick twisted fuck'

To someone who has admitted to mental illness. Nice.

So, because he has admitted to mental illness he gets a free pass on whatever nasty, bigoted or misogynistic bullshit he decides to post?

And whilst we're all lecturing each other on who has to tolerate whom, how bout sparing a thought for the fact that Ibs has pretty good reason to expect bigotted bullshit from Klyde.

That's the problem with human interaction. We form views of each other and respond as much to that as to what the other person actually says. So, Klyde has done a bang up job of making sure that in the event of any doubt it's a pretty safe bet that his words probably are bigotted and anti-gay.

And yeah, maybe his mental state has something to do with that, or maybe he's just a racist, homophobic, anti-woman prick, who also happens to be mentally ill.

Who the fuck knows. I certainly don't.

Ah. I just realised what you meant. Yeah. Unfortunate choice of words in the circumstances.

I personally am much more offended by the former. Anyone can hate anyone. Many do.

Ibs, your trannyism seems to have you on a red cunt hair trigger for many years. That is the most curious aspect of it so far. Probably something going on there. I would talk to someone about it.

The endless victimization is very unattractive, and generally poor behavior, no matter what you have been told. There is no karma police in real life. Because names, it turns out, will never hurt you -- unless you permit them.

Where can I get one of those permits to call people names that hurt?

I'd chime in, but things seem to be flowing pretty good here.

Well, I think Henry's a p'tahk for just starting this thread.

Speaking as someone who has no earthly clue what this little lover's spat is about and doesn't really care, I shall respond to the questions posed.

My opinion is: I can't even begin to understand why anybody would give a fuck. I certainly don't. :eyebrow:

Unless, of course, this Ibram person is actually Poor Pitiful Whacked-Out Pam of yore, who killed her landlord with a pointy stick or something, in which case, I care even less.

"My gender is not open for "philosophical" discussion, and i'm reporting this post."

I say it is, guy, and, report away!

"...you don't get to start a thread attacking me PERSONALLY for it."

Demonstrably: I have begun a thread, so, you're wrong.

"some things are just fucking wrong"
 

Eye of the beholder, guy.

"What if I called you "stupid"?"

You wouldn't be the first.

Have at it!

My skin is thick and I'm not sensitive.

"But it isn't really that simple."

Yes it is.

Culture doesn't alter reality. The transgender man (pre-op or after) is still 'male'.

Till nanotech advances to the point where tiny lil robots can zip into each cell and jigger 'round with DNA, no amount of cultural defining, surgery, or hormone shots alters the fact that male is male and female is female.

It is what it is...he is what he is.

*shrug*

#

"why not accept someone else's self-definition?"

Speaking only for me: 'cause reality trumps my (or his) definitions.

If he wants to self-identify as 'girl' -- again -- that's fine...no profit for or cost to me if he self-defines as 'girl'.

But the cost to me is high if 'I' pretend he's a 'she', 'cause he's not.

"Well, I think Henry's a p'tahk for just starting this thread."
 

As you like...and: who are you again that I should care?

Language is culture, not reality. You don't interact with Ibram on a genetic level; you interact with her on an abstract personality level. A level on which the only reason not to use her preferred pronoun, and especially the only reason to do so in such an outspoken way, is to annoy her.

This thread is nothing but "I'm gonna be a jerk to Ibram. Anyone wanna join in?"

Ibs, if you are going to be a tranny, you HAVE to develop a thick hide. It's a requirement. I agree with UT, you have been a little too sensitive to the jerks of the world. They are a fact of life and you will need to keep your head up high and ignore the little stuff.

The Cellar has a neat feature called the 'ignore' and it does just what it says. I have ignored people in the past and will do so in the future.

You are above the name-calling, always tell yourself that.

Love

Pam

You are need to rise above the name-calling, always tell yourself that.

I believe in fighting intolerance and this kind of bullshit, not ignoring it and moving on. if i seem like i'm on a hair trigger it's only because I believe it's the duty of all moral people to fight back against this kind of hate with all they've got, every single time they see it.

I agree with IBram this is sexual harassment.

Henry, you have no understanding whatsoever of the concept of gender, which has literally absolutely nothing to do with physical sex, except when cultural forces make it so.

Happy monkey nailed it. all you cunts who refuse to take the time and add one little letter to your pronouns are ONLY doing it to be unpleasant little bitches and get a rise out of me. it tends to work. congrats.

I think I saw that picture on TMZ...

Apparently you have learned it is far easier to preach than practice eh?
One can only assume your not as "tolerant" as you claim.

I am disappoint.

settle down, beavis.
_______/
http://www.websters-online-dictionar...6/Butthead.gif

The sheer fact that a homo thread gets more attention than one speaking of sound minds goes to show that the level of sanity and morality on this entire bullitian board is least to say "poor."

Pipe down, prick.

That's very commendable JBKlyde, supporting Ibram just like a big brother would. We know you'll watch over Ibram and teach Ibram well.

Rrright, where it's understood by all that when you say "this kind", you are referring to the kind that you personally experience. Obviously, we aren't in this thread talking about any other kind.

And how we "fight" is:

A) We calmly discuss an issue that intelligent people may disagree on, and discover through common respect what we can learn from each other in a two-way process.

B) We call everybody we disagree with a fucking ignorant cunt.

(B-prime) Assume the moral high ground. That way B is permitted and is not poor behavior.

AND BY THE WAY when you talk about gender you are not speaking for all TG people. And I know this because: well, I've known more of them than you have.

That made me smile :p

I so get that. I can't stand intolerance either.

From now on, I'd like to be known as Big Dick Blaque.

Because it's a 100% accurate description.

Video clip NSFW

Gotta agree with that. OTOH, I believe my Klingon insult to quirky henry was totally called for. I'm wondering what it's well-thought-out, logical explanation is for it's prejudice against Ibram.

Why does physical appearance trump psychological belief? We have enough evidence now to know that there is a different brain chemistry between men and women, and also between any kind of person in between.

Surely what's on the inside is equally important as what's on the outside.

As to the rest of this shit fight, I've started a number of threads in the past after being prompted to thought by something another poster believes or thinks about. Personally, I've never considered it to be attacking the other person, but an exploration of an idea that I don't feel very informed about usually.

I musta missed this one B4, but since it 's been brought to my attention (thanks Ali. ;)), tell me Mr. Hanky, what exactly is the cost to you? Cuz I see no logical way this can affect your state of being.

Never said you should.

Just a note on this statement.

It's rather contradictory. If you think it's fine that Ibram defines as a girl, then I don't see where there's any absurdity in recognising her wishes, ie what difference does it make to you, and if there's none, then why not simply do as a person asks instead of making it an issue?

Yabbut you're a sick twisted fuck, right? Who are you again? Oh yeah, our newest pillar.

Too soon?

So, Infi. I take it you agree with Henry's assertions regarding Ib's self definition then?

I agree with henry's assertion about ibs calling jbk a sick twisted fuck. How can you take anything else from my post?

And so, in the spirit of the day, I took the moment to communicate my increasing intolerance for drax and his new moral high ground, albeit with what must be supposed to be amusing name play like Mr Hanky.

I didn't take it from your post so much as the fact you seemed to be jumping on John for attempting to supprt Ibs.

Clearly I misread your intent :p

You do seem to be almost pleased to see Ibs 'get some' though. Again maybe I am misreading the situation. But I think in another context you'd probably be appalled by what henry is saying in much of this thread.

I don't care for john yet. Perhaps the new and improved one will grow on me.

As to ibs, I really don't know. This is new subject matter for me. This is why I stated earlier that understanding would better come from explanation and discussion rather than reaction and name-calling. I get a bit turned away when someone scolds me like I'm a child for not making the conscious decision to start calling someone I've known as a 'he' for years a 'she.' I might be confused and trying to understand, but admonishing me for not getting immediately with the program isn't going to turn my head.

Oh I get that. I do. And I agree with a lot of posters that Ibs needs to grow a thicker skin and be less preachy. But...

Giving Klyde a free pass when he is throwing the word 'homo' into every other post and generally conducting an anti-homosexual crusade in the cellar doesn't seem a good response to me. I'm not suggesting we all round on Klyde. But if he keeps pricking at Ibs and Ibs pricks back, maybe we dont all leap on Ibs in response.

Nor do I think it's fair to all wade in if another poster decides he's going to tear into Ib's sense of self in such a crass and demeaning manner as this thread.

That's as much as I am going to say about this now. I find it all really grim.

Ibs doesn't need to grow a thicker skin, he seems to be getting all the attention he wants with his current M.O.

I'm going to tell you right now, I have accidentally given you the wrong pronoun in the recent past and will almost certainly do so in the future, though I am trying not to.

Ask yourself this: why do you feel the need to live as "Erica" in the real world now? Why not keep using your old boy name? It's because names matter. They are part of our identity, the most fundamental indicator of our identity, more important than anatomy or behavior. You have chosen to change your identity in real life, and correspondingly change your name in real life. You have chosen to change your identity online... yet keep your old name online... then get pissed when people can't remember? It's not like your username is Starcatcher or some androgynous bullshit. Ibram is a real name, and a culturally male one. How come you don't just expect your real life friends to remember that J***** is now a girl's name?

Register under Ibica. Or whatever you want. You need a new signifier for your new identity. Do it today. Please.

As far as I know Ibram isn't a real name. And there's a big difference between people accidentally doing it and people making the choice not to. They and I know when that is. When i said "all you cunts who refuse" i don't mean the ones who aren't making the CHOICE to refuse.

Get OUT of my head!

Good ... VERY good.

I expect it's much the same as the pleasure I perceive some to feel when they get to point out others' moral ineptitude.

I agree completely.

This thread should have been closed at Posts #2 and 3
It wasn't, so Henry Quick wins my award as "Troll of 2012".

So sayeth...