jews: are we actually different?
 

as someone jewish who has broken the big ass cultural taboo of marrying a non-jew, i seem to get into the same argument a lot lately... and it always lead to one question:

are jews, particularly secular jews who have very little but bloodline to define themselves jewish and do not carry much jewish tradition, actually different from any other people?

intuitively it seems to me to be complete bullshit. almost every set of people has come up with stupid excuses to why they are special.

but then i always face arguments that look something like this: "look how much economical power jewish people have being able to gain, look at how many great scientists and philosophers came from us. sure, every people have these, but for such a small population we take a huge percentage. even our comedians tend to be the most successful".

and i have no idea of how to explain this.

in fact for every theory that i heard i came up with a dozen much more rational counter arguments:

• it's not genetic - all the jewish groups pretty much look like the people from whatever country they came from, we barely constitute a race really... the only reason we stick together is because every century or so people come up with a reason to kill us.
• sure, a tradition of being religiously literate might have given us an advantage in the past but that advantage would have died off with the arrival of public schools.
• really t's not tradition at all, because it applies to people of second third or even fourth generation secularism that barely keep in touch with the traditions - personally i know more atheist and agnostic and even buddhist jews then actually religious jews.
• it's not even the accumilation of wealth - most sucessful jews had to make their wealth on their own or in less then two or three generations, everyone i know of actually, from bill gates to my grandfather. apparently migrating a lot does that to people.
• and i am certainly not willing to settle for the religious "chosen people" argument... if someone wants to chose me to anything they better send me a fax or an email.

so what the fuck is the statistical curve doing there? and why doesn't the jewish economical mojo apply itself to my bank account?

The diaspora has diluted the business acumen, apparently.

But Jews are different. You have a genetic predisposition to Tay-Sachs disease, and a higher incidence of depression, bipolar disorder, breast cancer, and stand up comedy.

Of course you're different. You're ALL different.

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But you've got to work it out for yourselves.

You can't win this one.

You're different.

You're all the same.


Either way, it's an attack on Jews.

Here is one answer, anyway. Culturally, Jews are isolationist. Sure, you're happy to interact with other cultures, but as the wisdom goes, shiksas are for practice. This is both a cause and an effect of cultural pride, which is evolutionarily a very strong trait. Pride is associated with a strong work ethic, ambition, and self-sufficiency. Cultures that nurture that pride are going to produce a greater share of successful individuals.

so are Gypsies, and Indians, and Chinese... there are many cultures that have a taboo against marrying people from other cultures.

if anything jews have more leeway - IMO the entire reason jewdaism is determined by the mother is so that when woman got raped in wars & prosecutions (as was pretty much the status qua throughout history), the resulting children wouldn't be pushed out of the community.

we also have david and solomon as cultural heroes, and they both married a shitload of non-jewish women, including the love story between solomon and queen shva that has become a staple of jewish folklore...

A small island nation called Great Britain also gave the world a heck of a lot.
Doesn't mean we're special.

We are of course. I'm just sayin'.

All cultures carry with them the teachings of their ancestry, and this makes some cultures more productive than others.

"Emphasize education"

"Blame yourself, not others, for your success or failure"

"Treasure the children and raise them well"

"The future is not predetermined (by any deity)... you have free will"

"I've got a flag."

I am the descendent of Polish and Russian Jews, only a couple of wich made it out of Europe. Good stock them. They were pretty smart too, some how we became Catholic somewhere along the line. I've never figured that one out. So besides a good nose, and an ok sense of humor I figure I got the best of both worlds.

After we all die will it really matter who was what?

Apparently, yes.

Well, yea, there is that. But since I'm not mormon or jewish I'm in the clear.

Lots of Polish Catholics around here. They probably converted to be less visible given the various pograms they escaped. Dying for your faith is still dying after all.

I think local parish priests did a lot to support them day to day as well. De facto local social workers amongst poorer and migrant communities.

You may not be a Mormon yet, but when you die, you're fair game.

My intuition is telling me I won't care at that point.

are jews actually different? Not really. But this Jewish custom (emphasis on the word custom), yeah. That is different.

Exactly. Jewish culture and history, and thus identity, emphasizes that Jews are different. They are the chosen people, and thus, even if they don't believe in the religious doctrine of Judaism, still tend believe in being a part of the Jewish community, with a distinct yet assimilated culture. Judaism is about story and law - and neither without the other. Keeping Jewish custom - not necessarily Orthodoxy, but at least custom and culture - is what defines Jews, much more than their ethnic separation from the local culture. But this is more than just keeping Jewish religious culture - it's (in this argument more importantly) Jewish family culture, Jewish upbringing. And it seems to be at the very least statistically plausible, then, that their customs and culture are particularly aligned towards "success". It doesn't hurt that most American Jews are middle- or upper-class, either.

It's like saying Asian-Americans are particularly smart. Broadly, yes, that's often true - but it's because of the Asian work/academic ethic, because "tiger moms" raise their kids to strive for that. Similarly, I would argue that it's a cultural and customs-based difference in upbringing and worldview that has little to do with ethnicity and is mostly detached from the religious roots of the custom. It's a matter of raising your kids the way you were raised, even if you raise them secularly or without much emphasis on their Jewishness.

Reminds me of an discussion taking place between two guys in a book (fiction). The setting is post-apocalyptic. They are gathered with a group of survivors and one evening one of them reads the Bible out loud as a way to pass time. Just read, not preaching. After a while, one guy asks :

"According to the Book, all of us come from Adam and Eve?"
"Yes, that's what it says."
"And Adam and Eve were Jews, right?"
"Again, yes."
"So we are all Jews?"
"In a a way..."
"Then why do the Jews think they are more Jewish than us?"

While I think this discussion was there for some comic relief in the book, and sure I laughed, I thought that the question was interesting.

It's kind of like the guy who dies and goes to heaven. He's being showen around the place and is a little surprised to see that people are still living in groups in heaven. The Catholics have a neighborhood, the Jews have a neighborhood and so on. Finally he notices that there is not a southern Baptist to be seen anywhere. He asks about this and is told that they live way over there out of sight of everyone else. He asks "why"? His host says "they think they are the only ones here".

Which way to the virgins?

You have your religion. And I have mine.

Satan calls muster in hell and says:
"All the murderers assemble in a group to my left."
So all the murderers line up in formation to his left.
"Next, all the adulterers assemble in a group to my right."
And all the adulterers line up in formation to his right.
"Now, all the Christians form a group directly behind me."
As all the Christians move past Satan to form up behind him, one of them looks up and says: "You mean ...!
Satan nods and says: "The Jews were right."

I totally don't get that joke. :blush:

Please 'splain? :)

Did I mention my fantasies?

Like religion, my fantasies are also protected by the Constitution (and the NRA).

It's a silly double whammy played off gross generalities about religious ideas. If you look at it in terms of complex belief systems, you won't get it. It's premised on the ideas that Christians believe Jesus is God (divine) and Jews do not; also, that Christians believe in hell (eternal punishment) and Jews do not. The joke implies that if Jews are right about Jesus, then Christians are worshipping a false God (#3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.) and will be condemned to hell pursuant to their own beliefs; also, that it wouldn't matter if Jews are wrong about hell not existing because no one gets sent there for not believing in it anyways.

I guess you had to be there.