I almost to the point....
 

... of saying "fuck it. You want smaller government, have it."

When you whine because it's not what you expected, go fuck yourself.

If private enterprise wants road to move their goods and employees, and for consumers to get to their places of business, they can make road themselves.

If you want protection, use your gun or get a dog.

If you have a dispute with your employer, neighbor, grocer, handle it yourself.

If you have 3 kids in school, send them to a private school and pay 3+ times what it would cost in public school, or home school them, and lose an income and your kids can be educated by an amateur.

If fracking poisons your drinking water, or toxic waste is spilled on your property, move.

If you get sick, go to your rabi.

Have fun. Imma move to Canada.

I feel ya, Spexx. As things around me break and deteriorate, and everything costs more and more and more, as everything seems to be a racket to squeeze one more penny out...I've about had it.

When you work your whole life and do better and better but you can't keep up with the cost of EVERYTHING, I've about had it.

I'd love to move to Canada. Apparently though, it ain't as easy as it sounds. Bet I could get a job there though.

*cue pseudo-patriots screaming: you don't like it? Then GO...we don't wantchoo here anyhow, you unamerican traitor.

...

counterpoint/devil's adv.

911 is a joke in many locations. You must take steps to protect yourself, period. It is part of your responsibility as a citizen.

This is great advice and I'm not sure why even the biggest of big gov advocate would suggest that neighborly disputes should be handled by government.

Actually public schooling, per child, is usually about twice the cost of private schooling. In Pennsylvania this became so embarrassing that the legislature once ordered the reported numbers of per-child spending to be cut by a third using accounting methods.

This also means that, if you are a fan of public schools, you should be very happy with the people who decide not to use them. They don't cut the budget just because Timmy doesn't show up. The rest of the pupils get that dough and a better teacher-student ratio.

In a teacher-student ratio of as little as 1:1. That turns out to work well:

...homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. source

And if global warming produced by coal and oil affects your planet, and you can't switch to a less dangerous fuel, move to Mars.

Sue. Li'l government advocates say handling such matters as property disputes is a more reliable way to prevent pollution. Of course the biggest polluters on the planet have always been in big-gov lands. When Poland was Communist the rivers were the worst in the world. Now, of all nations, China is the biggest polluter because the government is making the decisions. And the biggest polluter in the world? Not a corporation, it's the government of the USA, Department of Defense. source

I'm sure you meant China. The bigger government the better, right?

My out of pocket for three kids in school was about $6,000/year. Can you name a private school where it costs $6,000 for 3 kids?

That's in today's situation, where home schooling is a choice. I'll bet home schooled kids today are from households with at a least a college educated parent/teacher. Homeschooling will be the only option for low income families. Many many kids will be schooled by inadequately prepared parents.

No suing. That's government.

I think you would find many people very happy to not have to pay taxes for public schools. Once my own kids get through public school, why would I want to pay to educate somebody else's kids? Older citizens routinely vote against school bond proposals.

Some older citizens have $ troubles of their own, and so vote their own interest.
But others (like grandparents) are strong supporters of their schools.
So I wouldn't want to characterize them as "routinely against...".

Why would you want to pay to educate someone else's kids ?
How about because someone paid for your education, not just your parents.

This is my problem with corporations getting tax exemptions.
They want their educated employees, but they don't want to pay for the education.
Ummm... maybe not... maybe they do want dullards to pick their cotton.
.

The actual cost of educating your three kids was $39,615 ($13,205 each) source

In other words, you paid $6000 per year and the government paid another $33,615 per year.

Yes, there are many that are free. Free ones tend to be in worse-off areas because, naturally, if you have income people expect you to pay to your ability.

But just in non-Philly SEPA?

Private school is generally much cheaper K-8 than 9-12 BUT, if you were Catholic (just because it's easier to find those numbers), you could have sent them all to St Pius X in Broomall for K-8 for $7,750 and saved the government all that money.

The kids would have gotten a better education and the taxpayers a huge break, but hey! You saved like a thou per year!

Then if you wanted to continue to be considerate, you could have sent them to Cardinal O'Hara for $11,700 per year ($3900 each) for 9-12. That would have only saved government only $21,915 per year.

The joke's on you now, because as a taxpayer you will continue to spend money out of pocket every year to educate your neighbor's kids. And those little snots aren't learning shit.

That's small government, as opposed to your legislation-licenses-inspection big gov't approach.

This is a thread about big versus small government.

No, my community (up to and including the US) paid the rest.

Wouldn't be free for my kids.

"Catholic school" is "better education"? I don't think so, especially when they teach you that you aren't responsible for anything, the father figure in the sky that controls everything is.

It's my pleasure to contribute to the good of the community and the continued success of our great nation.

'Cause they're going to catholic school.;)

If someone does send their children to private school and
pays whatever tuition is charged, do they not still pay
the (property ?) taxes that support their public schools
... and all those little snots that are your neighbors ?

I paid for other people's children for approx 20 years.
I didn't think the joke was on me.
Why? Because the next generation was getting an education and was legally required to be shut up somewhere from 09.00-15.00 (approx) five days a week.

Why would anyone want the next generation to be poorly educated or completely uneducated and potentially free to roam the streets from age 5?! Truancy is already a problem for some children, but at least schools can work closely with local Councils thanks to minimise it.

I accept some children are home-schooled well. But as Spexx says, that's usually by educated parents, or at least in homes where parents can survive on one income. I shudder to think of the social divide that would be created by the withdrawal of free education.

But then the idea has always horrifed me, since I first came across it here.
I had no concept it was even an option in a developed country.

This religion is only a speck harder to believe than the religion of Spexxism, where you aren't responsible for anything, the government that controls everything is.

The Government that Governs Best is the Government that governs least. I don't know about you but I'd rather not have the G-Men controlling my life. Any program that promotes larger government should be thoroughly examined to see if it is a necessity.

And those 40 million families living in poverty, earning less than $17,000 per year for a family of 3, can somehow miraculously afford $13000 per year to educate that child? :eek:

This works out real well for the people who already pay for private schooling and actually have the financial position to own a home. They continue to pay the same tuition, but they no longer have to pay the educational taxes.

Pretty much screws those 40 million in poverty though. Oh well, who cares about them anyway? Let 'em get a real job and stop having kids and quit spending food stamps on big screen tv's. Yeah.


Ah but, beyond the educational argument, there's the infrastructure being privatized...roads, hospitals, airports, prisons, water/sewer systems, police being privatized, removal of environmental protections (fuck the future generations, profits > all!), lack of agencies to prevent abuses of all types...abuse of elders, abuse of children, abuse of spouses, abuse of employees, abuse of power, etc. Abuse would just run rampant, unchecked.

Who exactly decides how much government is too much and how much is too little? Oh wait...those in POWER decide. If it benefits them, it's all good. If it screws the weak and vulnerable citizens, who fucking cares really?

Until they rise up like Cairo and Syria and Bahrain. Then maybe someone might care.

Or not.

I don't think so. Everyone pays school taxes if they own property regardless if your child attends K-12 or not.

No, I mean IF there is no more public schooling. IF everyone pays for school, then there is no reason for educational taxes.

I AM YOUR DEITY!

Kneel Before me!

All your responsibilities are belong to me!

@ Stormie Oh, gotcha. Yeh, thats not happening anytime soon.

Still no sense of humor. Here we go again.:rolleyes:

Head like a HO black as my Soul I'd rather die than give you control..

that was a response to Stormie, not you. :eyebrow:

This is how the thread peters out??

Well, I enjoyed this, my lensmeister, perhaps we can do it again sometime?

Not with a bang, but a Stormie...

Thank you for adding the "@stormie". I misunderstood.

I think it ended with misrepresentation:


Dude, God and Jesus already control you.

That makes since!!

I have two atheistic children in Catholic school. They are receiving a far superior education than their public school counterparts for about $6k each. I'll stand with UT on this. I went to a bad public school. Someone else will have to defend them.

I don't think it's right to "suck off" the system and that's what a lot of people do. With larger government comes the people who "work" the system. The only way for Big Systems to work' is to work' the system and most people don't. Just acknowledge that Jesus loves the church in Philly and bow at the feet of the people who run the church and this whole thing will make since.

There are good and bad public and private schools. My 3 kids have received a superior education in a public school, for $6k combined.

I and my three siblings all went to public schools, with excellent outcomes. Educationally, I'm the slacker in the family - only a bachelors' degree. One sister has a PhD, the other is working on a MD/PhD, and my brother got a Masters in Education, and is now teaching mathematics at one of those very same public schools we all went to.

If not for the No Child Left Behind/Race to the Top/Michelle Rhee crap that is now in vogue, I would have no reservation championing public over private. Hopefully that will blow over.

It is also worth noting that one of the reasons private school is so much cheaper than public school is precisely because they don't have to take everyone. Kids with behavior problems and non-supportive family lives and disabilities don't get to go to private school, and they're the ones who cost the most.

... and because many of them have unpaid (volunteer) staff,
such as nuns, lay people, and do not pay taxes on all school property,
receive donations, bequests, gifts in kind, and on and on,
and some "private" schools even receive government $ in various forms.

It boarders on disingenuous to compare $ costs to say private schools "cost" less.
That's almost like saying private hospitals cost less than public hospitals... until you receive the full accounting bills.

I acknowledge that Clod. I just wanted Spexx to know his assumption about Catholic Schools doesn't match reality here. Also in the interest of full disclosure, I work for a non-profit educating some of those kids, because the public system couldn't control costs. I agree with HM that NCLB is a disaster. Education should be controlled as close to the child's home as possible. I'm all for society taking an interest in education so that every child has opportunity, but would argue with folks who think football stadiums are a significant interest.

From my perspective every expansion of government has a serious cost to society. Those costs can be discussed and choices can be made on the basis of each. Public education has important benefits to society. Bailouts for car makers, banks, lenders, and homeowners do not benefit society but rather damage it by destroying the rationality of the marketplace. Every expansion of government power creates more opportunity for corruption. Look at our food supply for evidence of large corporations using their government influence to control the market. Look at Halliburton and other military contractors for war-mongering and absurd publicly financed contracts which reduce our security... sorry I got ranty but I tire of the phoney Democratic v Republican choice that is being shoved down our throats. Democratic pitchmen pimp a free ride for all and Republican's pimp a free ride for corporate America. Both gladly punish working people by destroying the value of a saved dollar and a life carefully planned and lead.

$39,615 per year combined

Oh yes, I know you understand the issues of public vs. private and mainstream vs. special education better than probably anyone else here. My comment wasn't aimed at you at all.

On the subject of religious private schools, I went to a Lutheran school from Kinder through 2nd, because my mother wanted me to start school a year early and the public schools wouldn't let her. It was a vastly superior school experience, and I suffered major culture shock when I switched to public school in 3rd grade. We had weekly chapel and learned only religious songs in music class... but it wasn't until years later that I even understood that the adults teaching us these things actually believed them. I assumed it must be like a Santa Claus thing. And the music was very pretty, after all.

I was curious about the costs here. So I looked it up. First of all, Arlington public schools are outstanding, although there is an achievement gap caused in large part by a constant influx of immigrants who just can't get up to speed on English fast enough to test well.

Arlington County spends more than any other district in the region, and is often in the top ten in the nation for its per pupil spending. This year, they spent $18,047 per pupil. So that's $36,094 for my two kids.

Last year, our family paid $5,179 in property taxes to Arlington, and since the county spends about half of its revenue on education, roughly $2,590 of my money went into the schools here.

So, the bottom line is I put $2,590 in, to get $36,094 out.

The local catholic school has a pretty good reputation, and I've known a couple kids who go there. They seem bright enough, so I figure the catholic school is doing alright too. Tuition at the catholic school is $5,743 if you are catholic or $9145 if you are not catholic. If you have two kids, you get a discount. $9962 for two catholics or $15,814 for two non-catholics.

I went to Catholic elementary. In the public rural Jr Hi, we were all placed in the accelerated classes because of our elementary education. We were learning stuff in JR HI that I'd already covered in elementary. This is not to say the Jr Hi was lacking, just that we got a superior education at the catholic school.

However, this public rural school has amassed an amazing reputation, winning awards of excellence. One of my cow orkers was telling me that he knew of two people who moved into the district just for that school. It's where my nieces go, and it's amazing. There is also a huge sense of community...farmers and the like take pride in their community and their school system. It's grown to a big campus, with the jr hi now with the hs and elementaries...instead of the Jr Hi being in BFE (god i loved that old building but boy did my mom hate having to come get us after practice) and 4 elementary schools scattered throughout the district. Though smaller in student number than the local town high schools, the district covers a much larger area.

Where does this number come from, if it is the cost of the education in public school it proves throwing money at it problem does not work.

Divided by three it's the average per-pupil in southeastern PA.

But you turned out to be one of PA's, if not America's, most outstanding citizens.

And those numbers are increasing at an alarming rate.

I thought every kid felt that way about their early exposure, until I met a few Catholic girls who were so traumatized by teaching Nuns, they bought the whole spiel literally.

You really know how to hurt a sometime anarchist. ;)

It serves you right for setting the bar so ridiculously high for the rest of us.:p:

Odd, that's not the message I get.

You're on the team brother. :) Its more obvious from the outside.

I see republicans as "everybody is on their own, and I'll get what's best for me any way I can".

I see Democrats as "We're a community, and I'm willing to give as well as take".

"I see Democrats as "We're a community, and I'm willing to give as well as take"."
 

The problem, of course, with such a high-minded notion is that always, always, always, what any particular body gives or takes is decided by 'someone else' with little to no regard given to what that body 'wants' or actually 'needs'.

You want me, for example, to pay for the 'benefits' I supposedly receive from living in a 'society'? Fine: send me a bill for the specific benefits I've gotten.

What? It's not possible to isolate my particular use of 'public service' and bill me accordingly? Certainly seems like the Electric Company, the Water Company, the Garbage Service, and any number of other private service providers, have no such problem determining exactly what I owe them for any specific service.

And: each of those service providers offers mechanisms for settling disputes between company and customer (try disputing your 'bill' with the IRS sometime... ;) )

My point: 'government' is supposed to be about service and proxies, not directives and governors....what an individual pays should be tied intimately to services rendered to 'that' individual, not as generalized tribute in support of *communitarian agenda.









*the republicans are much a communitarian bunch as the democrats...apart from what representatives of each party 'say', the two parties are EXACTLY the same.

That's all very selfish of you.

I live in The Commonwealth Of Pennsylvania. It's part of The United States Of America.

"That's all very selfish of you."

No: it's called 'self-interest' and 'self-determination'.

#

"I live in The Commonwealth Of Pennsylvania. It's part of The United States Of America."

And I live on Earth where nearly seven billion individuals compete to live.

"The Commonwealth Of Pennsylvania" and "The United States Of America" are, to me, placeholders applied to fictions foisted up to keep folks like yourself 'in-line' and 'quiet' (domesticated).

Neither is 'real'.

Certainly the indignities promoted in service of the two (and any other 'we') are 'real', but your 'commonwealth', your 'union': ghost whispers and angel farts.

"Selfish", "self-interest", "self-determination" - doesn't matter. It's all about you.

How about "family"? Just because you came out of someone's vagina, or the same vagina as someone else, or someone came out of your vagina doesn't mean you have to give them a break in global competition, does it? "Family" isn't real, is it?

"It's all about you."

Yep. Just as, from your standpoint, it's all about 'you' (your morality, your ethic, your notion of what is 'good' and 'true' and 'just'), making you as self-interested/selfish as me.

#

"How about "family"?'

Fuck 'em. There are huge segments of my extended family I despise (the feeling is, of course, mutual)...they get nothing...not a 'break': nothing...hell, I wouldn't piss on any of them to put them out if any were on fire.

I extend 'breaks' to those I love.

*shrug*

But, of course, all this hooey about 'breaks' and 'family' and whatnot has nothing at all to do with "We're a community, and I'm willing to give as well as take" unless you wanna conflate 'family' ('the family of man'...another grand crock of shit) with 'community'.

Apples and oranges...

As a Liberal, I'm tolerant and permissive (or so the stereotype goes). I'm pro choice, etc, yada, blah blah blah.

You think love is real? Ha!

:facepalm:>>>:headshake

Wow, that is deeeeeeep. I can even begin to respond to all the substance in your post. Thank you for taking the time to post such a thoughtful comment. You've added so much to the dialogue.

Yep - bout as much as your D=good R=bad post.

I stated my perception. If you view D as good and R as bad, so be it. Henry seemed to agree with my assessment as felt that Rs were good for that very reason.

Do you dispute that my assessment is accurate?

Its as accurate as one wants it to be.

More depth. Thanks for playing.

Spare me - Your D= / R= is as valid as
D = someone else take care of it.
R = Take care of it myself.