OMG! Indiana is filled with crazies...
 

source

:banghead:

Did you miss the collective right-wing mass-pants-shitting when the Girl Scouts let a 7-year-old trans girl join? the Girls Scouts' position is that "if her parents introduce her as a girl, if she lives as a girl, if she is for all intents and purposes a girl, why would we turn her away?", more or less, and the right-wing cookie boycott was met by a massive LGBT cookie-buying drive.

Those damn hippy lady-scouts should be more like the Boy Scouts. Throw out those sissy girly-men and faggots and athiests and shit. ALL kids groups should use exclusionary identity politics to humiliate and turn away kids.

Yummy Girl scout cookies! :p:

Yeah, but I imagine the sales in Texas dropped while the sales in Vermont spiked. So the troops (or whatever the local GS unit is called) in Texas are losing cookie funding while the ones in Vermont are gaining it.

Indiana wants you, but you can't go back there.

Shock Horror front page of the Sun today.
A populist extremely conservative right wing paper?
Wow. Maybe we really are moving into the 19th century at last.
Warned my cockles.

More...

I'm not saying it is couched in proper trans* terms.
But it is not a negative article.

Warning: VERY UNPOPULAR OPINION AHEAD:

What 3 or 5 year old really understand what that means? They hear about it and it's all the rage and look at the attention they get.

I'm all for families sticking together. I'm all for an even prepubescent understanding they are 'trapped in the wrong body' so to speak.

But little kids? No. Giving the kid leeway to explore is one thing, but throwing them out there under the bus is another. Who wants attention? Sometimes, parents.

I feel for the kids who later realize they were play-acting, as kids do, and regret this 'decision' (no 3-5 year old makes this kind of 'decision' on their own volition) but hopefully these families are also open enough to not be too disappointed that they were, in fact, in the 'right' body all along. But what to do with all the pictures?

Flame away. Just mho.

Popular enough with me. I'll burn at the stake with you on that one.

I'm not going to flame or hate, but I have read plenty of accounts of people who were aware - well before puberty - that they were in the wrong body or were attracted to people of the same gender. I knew I fancied Dominic Reading when I was 5. Had it been Helen Kirby instead, my feelings would still have been real.

Many, many of my photos of a child are of me in tomboy-mode. In fact my photo album is full of one-off shots of me in dresses because Mum was determined to mark the occasion. Then again, she chose my clothes for me, so it was a case of getting me in a dress smiling. Nothing to do with gender-conflict, but neither the photos of me in dresses or in jeans hold any shame for me.

This couple have decided to give their child its head. The child is deciding on its own clothes. I think this is positive. Yup, Zach may grow up into an unclinflicted boy and then a man. But why have more tears and distress than you need to as a child? By letting Zach choose clothes regardless of gender, it cancels out attention-seeking behaviour.

YMMV and I get that.

Meh. I played with trucks and climbed trees. I wore jeans. WTF does that have to do with anything? My parents didn't then give me a crew cut and an athletic supporter.

I felt DIFFERENT. Not because I understood my sexuality but because humans in their formative years are figuring out where they fit in.

As I said, give the child leeway. Make it the poster child and you're a bit wack.

3-5 years old. I repeat. 3-5. Right. I'm sure you'll find child psychs who agree and some who disagree, but I ain't buyin' it.

ymmv

p.s. ffs I was kidding about the pictures anyway. Sheesh. Yeah, ma, throw out all pictures of me where I'm not in dresses. :lol:

I've met a number of kids whom everyone knew were gay as a birch tree from shortly after the time the kid could walk and talk.

It's obvious, I'm sure there must be certain indications. I all for what happens in the womb doesn't stay in the womb. Nature not nurture. Except in the case of vegetarianism. That shit is a choice. Who you are attracted to and how you present? not so much.

eta: I googled "Gay as a birch" to see if it was an expression used by anyone other than a few Vermonters I know. and found out that a having stroke can make you gay. An all this time I thought you actually had to take it in the ass to be gay...:rolleyes:

Seriously, you couldn't make this shit up:

Really? I didn't know gay people looked or acted any different than anyone else? Or do you mean flamers? :lol:

Oh shoot, what's politically correct these days?

I get what you said, just as I got what Sundae said. I don't think you need to take start dressing your toddler up like damn Lord Fauntleroy or Pollyanna because they say "Hey mommy, I'm trapped in the wrong body." You don't HAVE to dress like either a boy or a girl, do you?

Hey mommy, I'm a puppy. (Good girl, here's a collar and a food bowl.) :lol:

Lighten up folks. Or am I wrong? ALL PARENTS ARE ALL KNOWLEDGABLE AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE DEEP INTRICACIES OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE IN CHILDREN AND NEVER DO ANYTHING OUT OF THE INTEREST OF THE CHILD.

Watch the news, we know that isn't true.

Having a stroke or other brain injury can make you talk in a foreign accent too.
You'd probably have been burned for that a couple of hundred years ago.

(No relation to anything above except as an addendum to Foot's stroke quote)

I'm glad all my craziness is directly traceable to the presence of cats. ;)

That's my story, anyway. Today.

I was sure it was the mercury we played with in the chem lab.

There are some kids you just know are completely gay from the get-go, it doesn't mean that you have to go out and buy them showtune CDs any more than it means you have to force them to play with trucks or dolls if they don't want to.

I also think it is ok to let kids present how they want within reason. If a first grader thinks he's trapped in the body of a hooker I think even just a little blush is out of order.

IM and Classic, agreeing? What is the world coming to?


I will disagree with the both of you while offering more information. WPATH standards (the standards for treating transsexuals) do not permit a child that age to take any medications or surgeries whatsoever. The child must demonstrate years and years of gender variance and comfort in their preferred role before being prescribed (in this case) puberty-blockers only. Full-on cross gender drug therapy is not given until after a long time of therapy and thought.

Transsexuals do not "choose" to be this way. Who would? I surely didn't! Does anyone REALLY think that we would choose a lifetime of bigotry, hatred, discrimination and sometimes even outright assault and murder? Just for being who we are? Most of us "late bloomers" are already (in my case) fully masculinized and we will not be able to erase those vestiges.

I cannot hide my height, large (for a female) hands and feet and certain other traits traditionally associated with men such as wide shoulders and narrow hips. Nothing will change those. So I will live my life with the spectre of being "clocked" daily. As things stand, it is legal to refuse to hire me or to fire me on the basis of my perceived gender. Surgical modifications or not, legal documents notwithstanding, I will always live in fear of being outed.

Now, had this condition been diagnosed in childhood (we are born with the condition, it cannot be chosen, like a lifestyle)I could have stopped my male puberty and had a much more feminine body when I began female hormone treatment. After the proper therapy of course. No one who wishes to transition can just do it without a therapist OK. Except those who do it on the sly and order their hormones over the internet. Which can be a horror story.

These children are exhibiting symptoms of a disease (oh yes it is!) and their parents are doing exactly the right thing. It is possible that a child might want to explore the opposite role, but most children are not accepting of the slightest flaw in another child. Parents, you should be acutely aware of this if you ever had a child who wears glasses, has red hair, is obese, has a visible stoma or colostomy, has a winemark on their face, or other defect.

These gender-variant children are being allowed to fall into their proper role naturally and live in comfort and security, something us older girls didn't have. Back in the day (just a few short years ago), such things were hushed up, "corrected", usually by abuse, the child running away from home to an uncertain future or even the child committing suicide, the root cause hushed up.

To my way of thinking, this is progress. We, as a society, are learninng that it IS possible to have a faulty gene that causes our bodies to develop incorrectly with respect to our brains. The fight for our rights, the same ones that other people take for granted, will continue until we are safe from official discrimination. We've been there all along; we are simply more visible now because we CHOOSE to be. This condition is not more common now, only more common than you ever knew!

That little girl scout had my full support and I even bought their cookies even though I *hate* them. My dogs loved them. I only bought thte cookies because I wanted to show the Scouts that not everyone is a bigot. And to do my part to ameliorate that totally stupid cookie boycott that some hyper-sensitive folks are doing. I really couldn't afford them, but I bought what I could. My dogs enjoyed the new treats just the same.

Love

Pamela

A-


-Fucking-

-MEN.

Fair enough.
How do you propose we "diagnose" this condition?
Is that even possible?
What if the diagnosis is wrong?
What is this therapy you speak of?
I'm honestly just asking.

Why is self-diagnosis suspect?

Why do we assume that fully male and female are the only legitimate options? Why is it a problem if a child later decides to present or identify with the gender associated with their birth sex?

Aside from the affects of hormonal replacement on sexual characteristics like, um, penis size and erectile function, what problems are there with a person's gender identity being fluid, utterly self-identified, and not subject to being second-guessed, by a therapist or otherwise?

Sigh, I dunno - Lemme think for a NANOSECOND.
How is a 3 year old gonna self diagnose?

By saying, Mommy, I'm not a little boy, I'm a little girl, please treat me like I want to be treated and respect my identity?

Classic, here is what I propose, since everyone is so keen on the fact we agreed:

Classic and Infi smiled sagely, amused and confounded, then turned and walked off into the sunset.

The End

(when they say how someone "presents" all I can think of are monkey butts. You know, they're all colorful and stuff when they present them to teh other monkehs. A three year old isn't 'presenting' him (or her) self for anything.)

And I'm out...

These are the written standards as followed by most professionals.

I hope this helps you understand a bit better. Feel free to ask me anything (within reason :) )

Yeah, she kinda got annoyed when I asked if she was going to lose the ability to parallel park and if that was an acceptable trade-off for the willingness to stop and ask for directions.

I, on the other hand, unsurprisingly, take a slightly more militant view than Pamela. I reject the notion that therapy should be a must in the process - I view it as simply a hormone imbalance.

If an XX, female-identified person had an abundance of testosterone, and a lack of estrogens, they would develop more masculinized - and would not have to seek therapy to convince a doctor to help them manage their hormones to the level they want. It's almost just a cosmetic point. Why, then, should my almost-just-cosmetic decision to take anti-androgens, with or without female hormones, be subject to oversight by anyone but me?

lawyers

:lol2:

Chyeah... OK.
None of those seem to apply to a 3 YEAR OLD. Did I miss it in there somewhere?

Maybe this on page 12:

<snip>

That definitive enough for you to start injecting drugs or medicating?


Damn ... shoulda listened to IM... (shrug)

A child "may have" freckles, as well.

Who's injecting drugs or medicating? All these parents are doing is letting the kid dress, act, and use whatever pronouns they are comfortable with.

Ah well, the Hate Mail have restored my faith in the British Press.
Because it is an industry you know, chewing up young men and women and turning them into the opposite gender for profit.

Ibby, I hear you and I don't like the pshrinks positioning themselves as "gatekeepers" either. I bristle at the notion that I need anyone's "permission" to do exactly what I want and need.

On the other hand, I do believe they have a place and need to be an intrinsic part of ANY transition, no matter how slight. Even if the person in question only wants to cross dress and have no surgery or hormone therapy at all.

May I direct you to exercise your Googling skillz and look up the following people:

Renée Richards

Dani Bunten Berry

Sandra MacDougall

Samantha Kane

Dani especially should be familiar to computer gaming enthusiasts. She was a major part of Ozark Softscape, the company that produced M.U.L.E. and other classic multiplayer games back in the day. Salon article here.

Those four names, and others that are unknown but still there are why a therapist needs to be a part of any transsexual's life.

I still love you wolf. :)

I had an old Navy buddy ask me what part of transition was the worst. He guessed the surgeries. I told him that those were the easiest part since I sleep through them. The hardest part is when they come along with a big needle and suck out half my brains. And my friend Rita chimed in "No no. The hardest part is when you return to work after the surgery and they pay you 40% less than before.

I knew there was a reason I hang around with her :D

I should think if one cross dresses without surgery, and uses public restrooms, it would be good to be a patient of an reputable therapist when making a defense in court.

By the time one is presenting as their target gender, one has a therapist write a "carry letter", a note ontheir letterhead which states that the person is a patient undergoing therapy and that dressing and presenting as [female] is a part of their therapy and transition, invites the reader to call the office for verification and generally outs the carrier to the reader.

I have one. :)

Partially true, anyway ... all services, medications, and surgeries are private pay, done by for-profit physicians. It is an industry.

So you're a card carrying member. :haha:

Well if you'd just sew that damn pink triangle on your shirt the initial confusion would never arise!



:bolt:

:hide:

ftfy

Don't bother doing it yourself. If Santorum wins, the government will do it for you.:right:

My friend Shay has just written a fantastic article on the state of trans* health care for Campus Progress.

http://campusprogress.org/articles/s...med_consent_m/

Sorry to post the entire article but it's just that good.

From Wiki

The League of Gentlemen's Dt Carlton skech is based on a doctor in the 80s documentary "A Change of Sex". I can't find it anywhere, but the GP is appalling.

The man was George Roberts and became Julia Grant.
I wish I could point you to a clip, but I haven't been able to find any.
Directly lifted from the documentary are these lines which Carlton uses:

- Go out, would you?
- No! We'll do things properly if you don't mind.
- He makes his own problems
- You cannot buy my opinion as you would buy a used motor car. That is not the way we practice medicine in this country.

The word that everyone is searching for here is "blouse."

"What is a camisole?"

Good article, Ibram. All to often, we MtFs get so wrapped up in our own problems that we forget our FtM brothers. And we need these reminders.

We have a long way to go, baby.