What's the bare minimum
 

What's the bare minimum standard of living that an American should have, and how much will it cost?

Should every American have food, clothing, shelter? How about a TV, phone, heat/ac? Should we minimally have an education? If so, to what level?

How much does a household need to gross in order to provide this standard of living for itself?

"What's the bare minimum standard of living that an American should have(?)"
 

The bare minimum standard of living for an individual is best determined by the individual for him- or her-self.

I have it on good authority that no more than one angel at a time can sit on the head of a pin. Although I can picture them sitting side by side and wrapping arms around each other, and resting one cheek each on the pin to stay there. It would require some balance and strength, but I think they could do it. So, I'm not sure I believe the one angel answer.

I'm sure angels on pinheads have all manner of woes (where and how to go poop is the one that comes to mind first).

Fortunately, for me: I'm no angel, and I don't live on a pinhead (though, often, I'm surrounded by them).

So what's the bare minimum you need for yourself and your family?

"So what's the bare minimum you need for yourself and your family?"
 

No offense intended, but, that's no body's business but mine.

I'm no body's baseline... ;)

these are communist thoughts.
knock it off.

Why are you limiting your question to Americans? That seems rather arbitrarily nationalist of you.

I see nothing communist in the original question.

That's what I was thinking, too ...

Ok, make it humans.

and probably cisgendered too, if we press him on it.

We must look at each case individually. What is the bare FOOT would need?

:p:

Human beings need to be loved in order to live.
I am barely scraping by in that regard.

Well, for me, personally... I would really require a tent, sleeping bags, and a steady supply of matches or cigarette lighter fuel to get me going.

Beyond that, the right to prostitute myself or otherwise perform labor in exchange for goods or money from others. The right to gather firewood in my surrounding area. The right to hunt for animals and cultivate a garden in my surrounding area. The right to drink the raw milk from my goat, and the right to occasionally kill some of her babies for meat.

The only big one I can think of that someone would have to outright give me in the beginning: safety and protection from others who might try to steal my efforts or hurt my family. If not that, then I'd have to add a gun and lots of ammo to my tent, sleeping bag, and steady supply of firestarters.

:unsure:


First victim? Moi? Poor monkey. Now you'll never get monkey milk. ;)

Well, I think the minimum people should have to get by is:

a) housing, incl electricity & water
b) transportation
c) some food
d) affordable insurance
e) a little extra for clothing, etc.

I don't think people necessarily need a phone, or cable, or tv, or internet. To me, those are luxuries and ones I did without for many years. But I would consider electricity and running water to be minimums due to sanitation/health/safety reasons.

Transportation can be anything from a bike to the bus to the train to a car. As long as you have the ability to get from point a to point b, you're ok. I've only owned one brand new car in my life. Most of them were beaters that were pretty darn embarrassing (and unreliable).

I say "some food" because there are always options to supplement one's food supply. Co-ops, food ministries, bulk buying, dents stores, grow it yourself, etc. Some things will cost money regardless, as a city person, I do not have the option of having chickens or cattle. But I've made due on what seems an insanely small amount of money...and fed my child as well.

Affordable insurance, because health issues are the one thing that can demolish a family's fragile finances. If we are to be required to purchase it, it damn well better be something affordable (and useful).

And since we aren't allowed to run around naked, we need to be able to afford clothing and other minimal necessities (ie: soap, tampax). I've bought clothing at Goodwill, Salvation Army, Platos and Walmart for many years. There is nothing wrong with that if that's all you can afford, but you need to, at a bare minimum, have enough to buy necessities from inexpensive stores. Also flea markets and Ebay are good deals!

The dollar amount that these will cost depends upon the number of people in the family, the laws in their region, and the region itself. Urban, rural, high cost of living, insurance laws, minimum wage laws, etc. will all impact how much this minimum would cost.



ETA: I have worked 2 jobs for the last 12 years to jack myself out of this sort of minimal existence. I don't have patience for people who could, but don't, work their asses off to make ends meet. But I also sympathize 100% with those who are stuck and cannot find a way out of the sucking muck of poverty. It's such a terrible, vicious cycle.

I forgot education!! Primary school education should be provided with taxes. That would be through high school, as that is the minimum required for almost all jobs. I would say that college should be affordable, but not free. Maybe the cost would best be calculated on a sliding scale (determined by the family income).

My personal opinion, of course, and not based on any facts, other than my own history.

Sorry infi, my brain combined your post and the one limey made a little bit before it. I would be honored to receive some monkey milk, if you ever decide that primate lactation is a hobby you'd like to pursue.

Your list does not match mine exactly Stormie, because we live in different societies. But it is close.

I don't think any family should have to choose between food and healthcare, or heating and education.

I kind of do. I have a problem with the word "should," which is why I compared this question to arguing about angels on the head of a pin.

"Should" implies that there is some sort of obligation. That people have a right to certain physical possessions simply because they were born. And if they are owed these possessions, then they are owed them by somebody or some entity. Who? Who owes them that?

Isn't the poverty line like 12thousand a year.

The "official" poverty level for 2011 was $22,350 for a family of four.

See, I don't think anyone "owes" anyone anything, other than...what we vote to spend our taxes on and personal freedom within the scope of the law.

BUT, I think when the economy gets to the point where a blue collar working person cannot earn enough to supply the bare minimum, then something is seriously wrong with that economy. Particularly if there is a top tier of people with money oozing out of every pore. This discrepancy has nothing to do with who works harder, it has to do with how the deck is stacked.

When bare necessities are overpriced in order to garner more profits for that same top tier, I object. A slum apartment full of bugs, raw wiring and broken windows should not cost 3 weeks of salary at minimum wage. If it does, either a) the apartment is overpriced or b) the minimum wage is inadequate for the region's cost of living. Or both.

I have to go...to be continued.

I see people complaining about not having the bare minimum: but they have a lot of tattoos and nice cell phones and prolly Giant Screen TVs.

So those things are not needs but they're wants and you hear about people who can't make ends meet who have better TVs than I do.

*shrug*

Just an observation on consumerism.

This is where I stop with most of these types of discussion. My feeling is no one owes you much of anything and if they choose to do well by you then that's wonderful.

I think the highlighted words are the whole point of this thread. My idea of bare minimum is probably different than yours.

Based on my knowledge of a guy I see nearly everyday when he heads in for his daily wash at the circle K, I'd say you don't need too damn much to exist. He doesn't want to go to a shelter and gets by on his own. That's his choice.

I imagined, instantly... and with no real thought...that the next question would be something along the lines of....if X is the bare minimum, and we have Y amount of Z (wealth, food, whatever) would you want to make it so Z is evenly distributed to make sure all of us have at least X.

So, my quip was but a quip... and I don't know if that's where spexx's thoughts were leading... I was just predicting kind of... probably wrong.

anyway... stop being a commie.

These rights are inalienable.

I thought a Circle K was a convenience store like 7-11. what is he washing? his car? clothes? person?

especially the prostitution. huzah!

There is the same sort of implied obligation in passages from the Bible, but it doesn't make me a Christian to allude to them ;).

Himself. He's actually a homeless guy that lives in the area. He does odd jobs and wanders around. He usually pitches his tent just a couple minute walk into the desert.

He's a nice enough, sociable guy. He's probaby batshit crazy but doesn't seem to have any problems living the way he is and he says he hates the shelters. He likes to just do his own thing, or so he says.

I make about 8,600 a year.. and I'm in hud housing on disability.. If I had a job making 500 a month I'd have nothing to complain about...

I thought the bare minimum was 37 pieces of flair.


But seriously, I went to the landfill today, and there are people living on the landfill, collecting plastic and glass to recycle, building shelters out of materials they find there, eating - I don't know what; water - don't know. They have goats and pigs, and there are fires all over the landfill. There are even small babies living there. So I'd say the minimum is pretty minimal.


I did not take pictures.

What is the cheapest product that the well-off can sneer at welfare recipients for owning?

a can of beer

Good question.

Cell phone?

Is this a quiz?

define well-off, please

What the ƒuck do you mean "should" ??? This is a nonsense question.

I think it's been well established that bare is below the minimum level of dress required by Americans in most parts of America.

Seriously.

I think he means 'works for a living and buys own possessions.'

Otherwise, I'm just an elitist jackass. :eyebrow:

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna call my tattooist and we're going to drink beer and watch HBO on a 85 inch screen. I can't afford it, but it's my right.

Seriously!
Perhaps, but terms like that have been thrown around too much with the meaning "undefined"

I was being sarcastical, as I felt that HMs post was a response to my post about tattoos, cell phones, and big screens.

I had hoped so, but wasn't sure. Perhaps I'm being overly cautious, still ... I am interested in his response.

In this case, I meant "doesn't need welfare". I wasn't directing it at you, IM, specifically, as I thought a post along those lines was pretty much implied and invited by the original post, which was what I was primarily responding to.

gotcha.
I'm surprised that "well off" to you means nothing more than "doesn't need welfare".

For the purposes of that post; it's a relative term.

Man, Marx must be soooo out of fashion. Oh wait, he is.

A person should receive in exchange for their labour (over the course of their working life) enough that they can live and replace themselves in the population. This means paying for their food, clothing, shelter, health care, their further education, the feeding, housing and education of their children (the initial person's education being supplied by the previous generation) and their retirement and eventual death expenses.

Exactly what this works out to in material terms is variable. In a society of farm labourers, formal education is above the bare minimum. In a society of industrialised workers who have to read safety warnings and such, literacy is required and so education is necessary. In a technological/service focused economy, education and socialisation is necessary and for the latter, a televsion could be considered a necessity - but it doesn't have to be an enormous flat-screen. In a market where most job seekers have a mobile phone, to not have one is a significant employment disadvantage and so they are necessities, but they don't have to be fancy. Likewise internet access.

I know this lacks details.

I think the crucial thing is that there is no poverty trap. That is, no one is so poor that they cannot allocate any of their resources to the gradual imporvement of their situation, because all resources must be devoted to immediate survival. I know many people who are in a poor situation have some resources which they could use to improve thier situation, but which they instead use for other purposes, like drinking. Their choice. Their consequences.

Drinking is not a necessity? :eek:

>What's the bare minimum standard of living that an American should have, and how much will it cost?

>Should every American have food, clothing, shelter? How about a TV, phone, heat/ac? Should we minimally have an education? If so, to what level?

>How much does a household need to gross in order to provide this standard of living for itself?

What's your answers, Spexx?

There is no answer. Just as you said all along, Henry.

Really, my belief is that many of these people would shoot somebody in the face for stealing their Wii or scratching their car.

So I'd hardly find any of their feelings on what a person needs to live to be even remotely valid.

Who are you referring to when you say "these people"??

Lamp...
 

...Spexx is not obligated to answer (anymore than I was obligated to answer, or obligated to answer in a way Spexx might like)...but: Spexx DID ask the question(s)...in my experience the person asking has some point to make.

I'm just encouraging Spexx to get on with it... ;)

"...many of these people would shoot somebody in the face for stealing their Wii..."
 

HA!

I believe each and every US adult citizen should receive $1000 per month in non-debt based US Treasury issued new capital. Medically necessary health care should be assured by the government, also funded with US Treasury issued new capital. How each citizen maintains their lifestyle after that is up to them.