So you think you've seen some bad parenting?
 

Check this out!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...delighted.html

Does that mean they are on the equivalent of welfare?

Wai ... wha??? OMG. whew.

yes to welfare.

Sweet Jesus, bad parenting indeed!




Wait, was there more?

Is The Sun one of those sensationalist rags like our National Enquirer? At any rate, they've found a family to write about and a way of presenting their situation which will make members of the entire political spectrum see red (red as in rage - not red as in commies).

Question for our Brit friends: Are the "council" places over there nice spots to live or do they tend to turn into places like our crime ridden, run down "projects"? If they are decent dwelling places for a family, there's a level on which this is a report on "good" parenting. After all, a good parent tries to find the best possible home for her offspring.

Does the UK really provide a comfortable life style for "welfare" recipients? And if it's that pleasant, why isn't EVERYONE in the UK living like the people in this article?

Just curious.

Coco, Ritzy, & Tarot??? Are these kids, or chihuahuas?

Sam, the Sun is a "Tabloid" but nowhere near the Enquirer and that ilk. It's a daily newspaper and reports the news and sports too. But it does/did have nude tits on page 3. The UK just doesn't have publications like the Globe etc. If there were a US equivalent of the Sun, it would be USA Today redneck edition.....

Council places vary, but the estates are generally project-ish. Without the racial divides they have here. Kinda.

After council estates got nasty (=projects), the councils started looking to acquire already-bulit properties in regular neighborhoods (estates) to "spread the joy". And that's when you started getting council houses with more than three bedrooms, and people started having "pride" in their council houses. because they got moves to nice places in nice neighborhoods without having to do a thing for it except producing bables.

Sorry, Dana.

Thanks for the explanation, Mon. I guess I don't think people should have to live in miserable places just because they're poor, but I don't think they should in effect be rewarded for having children out of wedlock and just getting to sit around. What happens when the last child turns 18? Does the Mom have to go find a job then or is she just set for life?

Extended family is OK, but I guess the needs assesment passes to the oldest child still living there? Dana or Sundae could proabably answer that more accurately. Sorry, never had the need, so never learned about it. But I know it changed from when I was growing up to when i went to Uni. When i grew up, council estates were OK, but I was semi-privileged and encouraged not to go there. They got better for a bit (at least in reputation -I was allowed to go there) and then deteriorated rapidly, resulting in councils looking more towards owning houses dotted round the community rather than dumping everyone in a specially built neighborhood. Nice in theory, but I think that led to people with parasitic tendancies to work the system......

Where IS Dana??

haven't seen her around.

now - back to the original story...

Funny how we think alike.

Coco, Ritzy and Tarot seem like perfectly good redneck names to me.

Right up there with Pixie and Trixie. :D

Stupid fucking names *shakes head*

It's really not as simple as people having kids to get a council house. For a start that's not how it works now. Or rather it does and it doesn't *smiles* The people controlling the housing stock are not the same as the people dealing with child welfare.

In theory all councils bear 'corporate parenthood' towards all children within their boundaries. This means offering support to families and in the event of family breakdown, where necessary stepping into the breach. The councils are legally obliged to ensure the safety and security of children. That means ensuring they have a roof over their head. In theory, the presence of a young child in a homeless family should be enough to gurantee housing, but in reality that's not quite how it works.

Lots of families who are technically 'homeless' are actually living in guest houses and hostels, and that includes families with youngsters. Housing advice centres and housing charities are overwhelmed by need and facing sharp cuts to budgets. Council/social housing is entirely inadequate to current levels of need. My own council has a housing shortage of somewhere in the region of 4000 homes.

Like many councils we don;t own the housing stock, it is owned and managed by an arms length not for profit company (not for profit but expanding to encompass whole regions of previously council owned housing stock), who supposedly work in partnership with the council to deliver local agendas.

Rather than the old system whereby when you got to the head o fthe list you were contacted and offered a couple of housing options, now you have to bid for houses on the housing system. Each bidder is assigned a priority band, with each priority made up of a points scale. If you're bidding with a bronze priority you might be bidding for years and not get anything. If you're bidding with a gold priority then you'll probably find something in a few weeks or months. Some housing is specifically open to only one or two bands, other stuff can be bid on by anybody.

The points system takes account of a number of factors including health issues or the presence of young children in a homeless family, or levels of overcrowding in a family already living in one of the association houses.

There's not an automatic guarantee that someone who's had another child will then get a bigger house, nor that a young single mum won't get stuck in some entirely innappropriate bed and breakfast hotel.

It varies from council to council. But I doubt there are many who can guarantee a council house to a girl just because she has a bairn.

There have always been a handful of girls who took that attitude. Somehow most of them seem to end up in the Sun or the Daily Mail to bolster the latest economic assault on lone parents. The vast majority of young single mums, in my experience as a councillor, working with this particular demographic as part of the Children and Young People's services directorate, are either flailing about in panic and need help and direction, or even more likely are single-mindedly focused on building a life for their little one.

This kind of shite really muddies the water. This becomes the picture most people have of young single mums and it's really, really, not representative.

Who authenticates this data to ensure that it is accurate and people are not lying on their applications? How is it updated accurately as their situation changes to ensure that they are not getting something they really don't need?

We have Bands A-D in Bucks.
I am in Band D "No housing need" because I live with my parents, in my own bedroom and have no dependents.

I keep applying, as it's my only hope of not living with my parents. Market rates for a studio flat (basically a bedroom with a kitchen in it) are more than my full months wage, let alone bills or living expenses.

I'm applying for other work of course, but I just can't see how I can keep up with the housing market.

The people who live in the houses opposite us (which are still technically council houses) are not living the life of Reilly by any means. They all work and/ or are looking after young children, so I don't begrudge them housing. Not that I'd be competing with them anyway, as our close is made up of 3-4 bedroom family houses.

Sam the reason not everyone lives their lives on benefits is because it's a miserable life. You have no self-esteem, you are bored, you can never better yourself (ie work harder for a couple of months to get something special) and the majority of people are simply not born that way.

A safety net doesn't make people lazy. It allows a minority to fall to the bottom without actually killing themselves. Most people want to be up on the high-wire or the trapeze.

They go through various assessment processes. And there are housing officers who oversee everything. Way too boring to go into in any detail here.

It really isn't easy to scam the housing system. There may be odd examples, but they are a small minority. There are far more families and individuals deserving of more help than they are getting, than are getting help they don't deserve. The trouble is a family not getting as much help as they need and deserve doesn't make as good a headline as the family that is living it up on the public purse or the single mum who just pops out a sprog (hate that phrase) as a housing solution.

Most people will have anecdotal evidence of someone gaming the system to a shocking degree. They either know someone, or they know someone who knows someone, who is claiming invalidity and housing benefit, whilst running their own landscaping business and holidaying in exotic locales three times a year. Or they know a girl who got pregnant young and is adamant she's just going to keep having babies, because once they get past a certain age the mother is expected to seek work...

This is cited as evidence for the system being completely fucked and everybody being a scam artist. But they conveniently forget the swathes of other people in their town and on their street who are claiming for good and valid reasons, struggling to try and make some kind of a life, or desperately trying to find a decent, stable job. Bouncing from one insecure position to the next, falling in and out of the system, getting ground down by the constant and unrelenting pressure of the breadline.

They're just not as interesting as the jet-skiing malingerer or the baby popping mommy machine, and they don't give one that lovely warm feeling of righteous indignation and self-elevation.

Thanks, Sundae. I suspected the truth was more along the lines you describe. I loathe being forced onto SSDI (disability). My stipend is very, very low; and I would far rather be making a contribution of some sort than surfing the Internet all day. I just called my voc-rehab counselor for about the 5th time in this past month. I was told she out sick. Big surprise. I have not been able to schedule a meeting with that woman since last spring. She is like the watch dog I have to get past before being considered for ANY voc-rehab assistance be it state or federal. The woman who handles my evaluation and potential training at the Federal level is mad at me because I haven't sent her the paperwork from the state lady. Round and round we go. :mad:

Thanks for taking time to explain all that. It would seem that things are not so very different no matter which side of the pond you are on.

Weeeeee. This is so much fun - NOT. There has to be a better way.


Dealing with similar BS myself. The whole thing is so frustrating and inefficient. Maybe we should send unemployed people there so that, at the very least, there is some understanding of whats happening.

There are times when I have to work very hard not to be consumed with rage at these people. Just what do they think, if anything?

I like the idea of getting rid of some of these uncivil servants and replacing them with people who have been laid off/unable to work for far too long. Such people would make the best employees IMO.

They think you are driving your brand new car to your mani-pedi appointment and eating peeled shrimp whilst talking on your IPhone. That's what they think.

They also think your medicare/medicaid is paying for your facelift. You can't convince them otherwise.

Sam, can you not request a different counsellor/substitute?

Does the state lady know the reason you don't have the paperwork? Can you ask her advice on how to get it given the circumstances. When you say she is mad at how, how was this manifested? Did she yell at you? or send you a snippy email?

Awww, Monster, I appreciate your concern. Since the state of Colorado has decided to cut frills like services to help people get back to work, my town has been left with a single state voc-rehab person who drives 50 miles over from the adjoining county to see clients here once or twice a week. This person is very burned out and over-worked, needless to say.

When I called the main office today, I asked the man I spoke with if I just couldn't be assigned to someone in Durango and that I was willing to make the 100 mile round trip drive if I could just get some help. The guy said he'd bring up my concerns to my voc rehab person if she ever shows up. Great!

So, I will just call again tomorrow and the day after that and the day after... Eventually they may get so tired of being pestered by me that they'll give me an appointment. "Some day my prince will come..." Yeah, right. :right:

When it comes to the Federal government, it's just as bad. The Fed worker there is just one woman who represents the entire Rocky Mountain region. She single-handedly is taking on Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and a bunch of other states. I have to fill out this 60 page - literally - plan with the help and feedback I supposedly have gotten from state voc rehab and the results of my most recent med evaluation.

In theory, there is a woman who works as an outside advisor to the Queen of the Western Feds, and this advisor could also give me help coming up with a voc rehab plan. Unfortunately, the advisor's sister died last week, and she has had to take off time for the funeral and family matters and probably crying her eyes out. I have tried to cut her some slack, but I've got to get help from SOMEONE. I am incapable of wading through all the paperwork and jumping through all the hoops on my own.

The Queen of the Western Feds sends me warnings on official government stationary that I have run past the time normally allocated to get into the Federal job program I'm trying for. If I don't meet the deadline, I can't apply again for 6 months and the Feds will probably come up with a few other penalties, as well.

Finally, given the upcoming shoot out between the Gang of Twelve in Congress this fall, I honestly wonder if its even worth trying to apply for assistance. Medicaid alone is going to take a serious hit - everyone I know in the Colorado Cross Disability Coalition is pretty certain of this, and those folks know more about the politics of disability issues then just about anyone else - around these parts, anyhow.

Aren't you glad you asked? Sorry for the rant, but I am beyond frustrated these days. :(

When I was filling in my form (ie whole book) for Disability Allowance, I got help from a local charity. I'm not saying this is an option for you, just that they don't exactly make it easy over here either.

And when I had my assessment after a year it was decided I would be able to return to some sort of work with assistance.
A fact I was informed of three months later - a few days before a payment was due. Which lead to stress and borrowing and having to sign on as unemployed immediately, and only elegible for unemployment allowance if I proved I was actively seeking work and agreed to take any reasonable offer of employment. The Job Centre was "currently recruiting" a Disability Advisor at the time.

My situation was nowhere near as grim as yours. But my experience of the benefits system is if you're crazy enough to want to stay in it, you're probably too unstable to work anyway.

Good luck with your hoop-jumping to find work, while still being treated like a scrounger.

Sounds like the system in the UK is nearly as bad as the one in the US. Sorry you're having to deal with all that BS, too.

I can't imagine anyone voluntarily going through all the stuff that the Federal disability system imposes on an individual in the US - especially if your disability "award" puts you at or below the poverty line. I'd give anything to get my old job back, but that's not going to happen. Heck, I'd give anything to get ANY job.

It is typical of the government to "save" money by down-sizing vocational and back to work programs. For every $30,000 - $50,000 they save by laying off a counselor, they lose out on a hundred people like me who are desperate to go back to work. Say, that each person on disability costs the government $30,000/year (just guessing). That means the State can cut $50,000 from the budget in order to go $300,000 in the red for benefits for people who want to earn their own way if they possibly can.

Stupid, stupid, stupid! :mad:

So when she did this, did you tell her why and request help?

I just got off her voice mail. It doesn't give you much time to explain stuff, but I did the best I could. I'm sort of scared of the Queen of the Western Feds. I made my call to her just barely in the nick of time. I kind of imagine her swooping down on me on a broomstick and me having to dissolve her with the water from my garden hose.

On the plus side, the Adviser to the Queen of the Western Feds finally contacted me today to set up a time when we can drown ourselves in government paperwork. She didn't reject my ideas as of what to do out of hand. I told her I wanted to be a Campground Host, and she says that may be possible. I guess I can get special funding through my Social Security Account that would help me buy a travel trailer as long as its work related. Which it would be, of course.

One of the things that struck me when I was a literacy tutor on a government funded programme, was just how at the mercy of their advisor/case worker's social attitudes the clients were. The level and kind of assistance offered and the tone of that offer can vary greatly.

If you claim benefits and try to use the systems and provisions in place for jobseekers, and your home address is in some notorious shithole there's a strong possibility you'll be met with a degree of suspicion and prejudgement. If you don't have the right wardrobe and mannerisms to overturn that preconception very quickly, you might get short shrift, or patronised, or you may face outright nastiness.

If you have been doing rather well in life, have worked for years in a well-paid managerial post, or have been lecturing in a university and you find yourself between jobs during an economic downturn, and you're seeking assistance whilst trying to find a way back in, or retraining/reskilling, you may face a different set of prejudices. I've known case workers who've had real chips on their shoulders about education. One, I swear, took grim delight in 'bringing them down a peg' and rentroducing them to 'the real world', by which they meant they'd got to the point in their claim where they have to take any job, even if its shovelling shit naked on the high street for public amusement*. Or they'd passed the milestone that means they have to go on some ludicrous fucking 'Job Seeker' course, where they'll be taught the arcane mysteries of writing a resume using MS Word, and how to write a frakking application letter, by a well-meaning 24 year old volunteer and her hard as nails, eagle-eyed supervisor. Whilst there, they'll be cajoled, patronised, bullied and discarded all in the span of 6 weeks.


Right...that turned into slightly more of a rant than I'd intended...

*not really

Yeah, that kind of stuff goes on more often than one would like to think. I am fairly certain that I have my own gremlin in the wood pile. But it seems that I have finally shamed the Coloradi vo-tech lady into giving me an appointment. I get to see her excellancy at 1:00 today. Yay!

Fuckin' A, Sam. Well done. Your persistence clearly paid off :)

Isn't it funny how stuff starts to happen when you put some serious effort into it? The same-day appt is pretty impressive. How did it go?

It went really well, Mon. Apparently, Colorado still has some funding left for voc ed training, and they're willing to pay for me to go back to school and get retrained in a new field. All I have to do is fill out about a 60 page proposal/plan (paper-work, ack!), and turn it in to her when we meet again next week, and she'll put it into the pipeline right away. She says the trick is to act fast (*cough*), and get my approval as soon as possible before more funding cuts go through. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

I wish you the very best.

Good luck Sam! :)

Woot!

Go Sam, Go Sam!

good Luck Sam! I hope it works out for you.

Corn field? Pelennor field? Football field? Field of dreams? What's your new passion? ;)

Good luck, whatever you choose. Make the most of it.

A farmer, silly. See her? She's outstanding in her field!

A camping field, from what I can tell.
And not camping as in mincing either.

Yay you Sam.
Well done for hanging in there, and pestering, and working at it.

The irony being, getting through this is not supposed to be a chore.
The real work isn't supposed to start until you're employed.
Although I expect - if you're like me - the relief once you are working again will make all of this worthwhile.
Stupid. But worthwhile.

And yes, everything crossed.

Well, of course looking for a job is work. For anyone, not just for those who have to deal with the meanie-weanie public employees.

For me, looking for a job is harder than the work. It's stressful, you get rejected, you try not to kill yourself, you get rejected again.

When looking for a job, your job is: looking for a job.

*shrugs*

Great news, Sam.

I agree, Shawnee. Now, if only weeding work was year round here, I'd be all set!

I accept that for anyone, looking for a job is a job.
If you don't already have one, then you make it your job.
But trying to get some sort of assistance, needing specialist help, meeting criteria for benefits, proving you're looking when you have genuine hurdles - that's like normal looking for a job, but with mittens and a blindfold on.

In the end nothing the Job Centre did helped me.
I got my job through volunteering, pure and simple. Oh and being awesome of course.
But I don't blame the staff at the Job Centre, there was (and is) honestly a dearth of jobs.
I bought them some chocs as a thank-you, because they understood and unofficially accepted my position when I had a job but had to sign on til my CRB cleared.

Some people are lazy shits. It's true.
Many are trying their best. I count myself lucky every day. I can't wait to get back to school.

Thanks for your good wishes, everyone! I really appreciate them. :blush:

Dealing with the state and federal bureaucracies has been the most difficult work I have ever attempted. I'd rather work at the Bates Motel, anytime. :thepain:

Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself. I can't wait to start my classes. I know they will require a lot of effort, but it will be so worthwhile if I can get that credential to put on my resume. I am going after a certificate in environmental writing which would open up a bunch of jobs with either the Forest Service or the National Park system, writing anything from environmental impact statements to guides to the great out of doors.

And I have more good news. The Queen of the Western Feds just called and when I explained to her what I want to do, told me that she would most likely approve it as soon as I get the paperwork in to her (paperwork - BARF!). And I am allowed to combine Federal assistance with State voc-rehab assistance. Yay!

She told me that they can work some sort of magic with my social security/disability benefits where-by I can get an extra $700/month to be used on officially approved job related expenditures. She said that she would approve me using that money to buy a camper trailer, because that would allow me to live at my proposed job site - the National Parks! Wow!

It's funny how right after I posted here about how impossible this whole process has been, everything started to come through all at once and right away. The Cellar must have some powerful mojo!

Unbelievable good news SamIam!!


How wonderful for you, I'm so happy and excited for you, congratulations!