The Cellar
Page 1 of 3 1 23
Show 60 post(s) from this thread on one page

The Cellar (http://cellar.org/index.php)
-   Current Events (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Fast and Furious (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=25379)

TheMercenary 06-17-2011 06:19 PM
Fast and Furious
 
Holder and the DOJ are in deep in this one. Hopefully they can fire the fool or at least get him to quit.

Quote:
The lethal fallout from a botched operation by the US Department of Justice which allowed almost 2,000 illegally purchased firearms to be transported from the streets of Arizona to drug gangs in Mexico has been laid bare in a scathing Congressional report, which concludes that it resulted in countless deaths.

A mixture of arrogance, over-confidence, and staggering ineptitude by the Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives [ATF] was outlined in a 51-page investigation by two Republican members of a House panel charged with getting to the bottom of what went wrong during a two-year operation called "Fast and Furious".

It tells how, between 2009 and this year, the ATF instructed agents to turn a blind eye to hundreds of AK-47 assault rifles, sniper rifles, and revolvers purchased from gunshops in Phoenix and en route to Mexico. They hoped to eventually recover them from crime scenes and build a complex conspiracy case that might take down the leaders of a major drug cartel.

In the event, the operation resulted in the arrest of a handful of small-time crooks. But it exacerbated an already-huge spike in violence on both sides of the border. Two of the guns allowed to "walk" into the hands of criminals were used in a shoot-out that killed a US border patrol agent, Brian Terry.
More:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-2297924.html

TheMercenary 06-22-2011 01:06 PM
Another stain on Holder and the DOJ....

Quote:
The damning evidence that the U.S. Department of Justice agency is a major supplier of cartel weapons will go in front of a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee this week, in what could be a damning indictment of the ATF’s senior leadership and Eric Holder’s leadership of the Department of Justice.

Attorney General Holder has apparently ordered the DOJ to fight Congressional oversight, with the DOJ and ATF ignoring seven letters and a subpoena from the committee. Neither Holder nor ATF Director Ken Melson will answer questions — which may lead to them being held in contempt of Congress.

Holder and Melson have little reason to tell the truth about what happened with Operation Fast and Furious, which may be the most incompetent ATF operation since the agency’s ill-advised 1993 raid of the Branch Davidian compound left four agents dead and 16 wounded. (After the raid failed, the Justice Department then had the FBI take over a siege which ended in the deaths of 74 men, women, and children.) In responding to the subpoena and the letters directed to the agencies by Congress, they may reveal not just glaring incompetence, but perhaps open a door to political motives for the gun-running that point higher in the Obama administration.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-under-fire/

TheMercenary 06-24-2011 12:27 PM
Another Murder Linked to US Gunwalker Case

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...in;contentBody

classicman 06-24-2011 12:51 PM
Quote:
A bipartisan team of members of Congress heads to Mexico tomorrow as their investigation moves south of the border.
Hopefully they can get something there since they are being stonewalled here.

Fair&Balanced 06-24-2011 12:59 PM
Just to add a little context, Issa, the Chairman of the House Govt Oversight Committee received a classified briefing on the program last year and made no objections.

Quote:
A chief Republican critic of a controversial U.S. anti-gun-trafficking operation was briefed on ATF’s “Fast and Furious” program last year and did not express any opposition, sources familiar with the classified briefing said Tuesday.

Rep. Darrell Issa (Calif.), who has repeatedly called for top Justice Department officials to be held accountable for the now-defunct operation, was given highly specific information about it at an April 2010 briefing, the sources said. Members of his staff also attended the session, which Issa and two other Republican congressmen had requested...

...At the briefing last year, bureau officials laid out for Issa and other members of Congress from both parties details of several ATF investigations, including Fast and Furious, the sources said. For that program, the briefing covered how many guns had been bought by “straw purchasers,’’ the types of guns and how much money had been spent, said one source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the briefing was not public.

“All of the things [Issa] has been screaming about, he was briefed on,’’ said one source familiar with the session.

Frederick R. Hill, a spokesman for the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, which Issa chairs, acknowledged on Tuesday that an ATF briefing on “weapons smuggling by criminal cartels” took place in April 2010 but declined to specify what Issa or his staff were told.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...5eH_story.html
I think it was reckless operation, but Issa evidently didnt see a need at the time to attempt to prevent it or take any action at all.

The head of the ATF should probably resign.

The rest is partisan political grandstanding.

TheMercenary 06-24-2011 05:08 PM
Holder should resign. Or maybe you just consider a protest and inquiry over the deaths of the agents "political grandstanding". :rolleyes:

wolf 06-24-2011 05:25 PM
We have a long history of arming our enemies, first time we've done it so close to home, though.

The paranoid conspiracy theorist in me says that Fast and Furious was an attempt to promote gun violence so that the ban could happen ... they just didn't expect to get caught at the selling parts.

Fair&Balanced 06-24-2011 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 741866)
Holder should resign. Or maybe you just consider a protest and inquiry over the deaths of the agents "political grandstanding". :rolleyes:
Well certainly, no one knows more about political grandstanding when it comes to Holder than you. ;)

TheMercenary 06-24-2011 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 741873)
Well certainly, no one knows more about political grandstanding when it comes to Holder than you. ;)
Well except for the fact that Holder holds the highest office in the DOJ and the DOJ has been completely involved in this operation that not only has fueled the mass murder of Mexican nationals just across the border but now three of our own agents. Yea, Holder needs to resign and you should consider not trying to make excuses for this scum bag. This is Obama's Iran Contra. I wonder how agent Brian Terry's family would feel about you degrading his death to nothing more than "political grandstanding". I will send them a link to your comments.

TheMercenary 06-24-2011 08:33 PM
Border Patrol Agent

Brian A. Terry

Officer Down Memorial Page

http://www.odmp.org/officer/20596-bo...-brian-a-terry

Fair&Balanced 06-25-2011 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 741885)
Well except for the fact that Holder holds the highest office in the DOJ and the DOJ has been completely involved in this operation that not only has fueled the mass murder of Mexican nationals just across the border but now three of our own agents. Yea, Holder needs to resign and you should consider not trying to make excuses for this scum bag. This is Obama's Iran Contra. I wonder how agent Brian Terry's family would feel about you degrading his death to nothing more than "political grandstanding". I will send them a link to your comments.
The political grandstanding is the chair of the House Committee acting as if he is hearing about the program for the first time when he received a classified briefing last year.

And its you as well, looking for a new way to scream Holder should resign every other week, dude.

It has nothing to do with the senseless death of a federal agent as i result of what I said was a reckless operation. Shame on you for such an ignorant assertion

Fair&Balanced 06-25-2011 10:40 AM
If you want to compare it to Iran-Contra, then Obama should appoint a bi-partisan commission to investigate like the Tower Commission.

That would certainly do away with the inappropriate partisan grandstanding by the hypocrite Issa who by his silence in the previous years briefing can be said to have given his tacit support for the program.

TheMercenary 06-25-2011 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 741942)
It has nothing to do with the senseless death of a federal agent as i result of what I said was a reckless operation. Shame on you for such an ignorant assertion
Your words dude, not mine. Shame on you for degrading his death and subsequent protests over the operation as "nothing more than political grandstanding".

Fair&Balanced 06-25-2011 10:37 PM
So you dont think Issa is grandstanding, even though he was briefed on the program last year and expressed no concerns.

This is the same guy who demanded hearings on the SEC fines against Goldman Sachs, claiming it was timed by Obama to be political and not mentioning at all his $5 - $15 million investment in Goldman Sachs funds.

OK.

And I'm not degrading anyone's death but conservatives certainly like to get all sanctimonious and suggest they care more about the deaths of American soldiers or border patrol agents.

I keep forgetting that conservatives are more patriotic than liberals. At least that is what you guys keep telling us. :rolleyes:

Gravdigr 06-26-2011 05:08 AM
:corn:

xoxoxoBruce 06-27-2011 01:23 AM
Quote:
The lethal fallout from a botched operation by the US Department of Justice which allowed almost 2,000 illegally purchased firearms to be transported from the streets of Arizona to drug gangs in Mexico has been laid bare in a scathing Congressional report, which concludes that it resulted in countless deaths.
Yeah, but, but, they nailed that bastard that was growing a pot plant in his closet, using those energy hog grow lights that are melting the glaciers and drowning Polar Bears. And they have really cool black matching outfits, too.

Fair&Balanced 06-27-2011 05:16 AM
How many weapons are making their way into the hands of Mexico drug gangs and cartels as a result of loopholes in curent US gun laws that allow straw purchases at Texas and Arizona gun shops and gun shows?

Quote:
...James Cavanaugh, a former ATF commander, said stemming the flow of guns to Mexico is a Herculean task given the lack of law-enforcement resources and political will.

“I don’t see how it’s realistically going to slow down if we don’t make changes in resources, laws and policies,” he said. “It’s important because people are being slaughtered.”

Agents and prosecutors have been especially passionate in pleading for Congress to pass a specific law banning gun trafficking, and have repeatedly watched as courts threw out cases against straw buyers who made purchases that were technically legal.

The law ATF relies on most heavily to stop the flow of weapons south makes it illegal for someone to lie on a form at a gun shop, claiming to buy a weapon for himself when he or she is really buying it for someone else. Proving the person lied, however, is difficult and often judges treat the indiscretion as a paperwork violation deserving of light punishment, according to law enforcement authorities. Without a specific gun trafficking statute, authorities say, they often can’t do much as they watch suspicious activity.

“It’s upsetting,” said Michael Bouchard, ATF’s former assistant director in charge of field operations. “What are you supposed to do? No one in their right mind would let a gun go across the border knowing that it would kill a law enforcement officer or be used to kill others. But there’s no easy answer.”

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/in...eid=&pagename=
I am all for an investigation that gets to the heart of the problem is not just a "gotcha Holder", like Mercenary's frequent witch hunts. The focus should be on identtifying and correcting the deficiencies in the system that allow Mexcian cartels easy access to guns in the US and not just on looking for a political scape goat.

Political granstanding is suggesting that every effort to close loop holes or strengthen gun laws is a secret plot to eliminate Second Amendment rights for law abiding citizens.

Political grandstanding is also blocking the appointment of the last two nominees for director of ATF (one Bush and one Obama) because the NRA didnt like the guys, leaving the ATF with no real leadership for the last five years.

TheMercenary 06-28-2011 07:33 AM
Editorial: Was Fast And Furious A Gun-Control Plot?

Quote:
Bill McMahon, ATF deputy assistant director, testified that of 100,000 weapons recovered by Mexican authorities, only 18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S. And of those 18,000, just 7,900 came from sales by licensed gun dealers. That's 8%, not 90%.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...px?src=HPLNews

Fair&Balanced 06-28-2011 08:23 AM
From your source: 7,900 guns to Mexican cartels from licensed dealears; 10,00 from other (private sales, illegal sales, etc).

And rather than focus these 18,000 weapons from the US getting into the hands of Mexican cartels, you want to attribute any consideration of a programmatic or legislative fix as a "gun control plot"?

Between your "get Holder" obsession and now the "gun control plot", I dont see any serious interest on your part to really discuss the issue of thousands of US guns making their way into the hands of Mexican gangs and cartels.

TheMercenary 06-28-2011 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 742318)
From your source: 7,900 guns to Mexican cartels from licensed dealears; 10,00 from other (private sales, illegal sales, etc).

And rather than focus these 18,000 weapons from the US getting into the hands of Mexican cartels, you want to attribute any consideration of a programmatic or legislative fix as a "gun control plot"?

Between your "get Holder" obsession and now the "gun control plot", I dont see any serious interest on your part to really discuss the issue of thousands of US guns making their way into the hands of Mexican gangs and cartels.
Yea, maybe you missed the "Editorial" part... not my views, just my post for food for thought. Because so far Holder and the ATF have failed to come up with a good excuse for the death of their agents from guns they knowingly let go to Mexico. The serious part of the discussion is on the part of people like you trying to soft peddle and apologize for the issue and act like it is no big deal that the DOJ and ATF circumvented the laws for some crazy ass plan that is killing not only Mexican civilians but now American agents.

Fair&Balanced 06-28-2011 08:35 AM
I get it. You made it clear from your first few posts that your interest in the issue was purely political - "Holder should resign" rather than addressing the issue and how to correct it.

You want to focus on the failure, assign blame, and not address the larger issue that is killing people on both sides of the border.

Have fun.

TheMercenary 06-28-2011 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 742326)
I get it

You want to focus on the failure, assign blame, and not address the larger issue.

Have fun.
No, I don't want apologists to sweep the significant failures of the DOJ and ATF aside by down playing the issues. I want them to be held accountable and show us some of that Obamanation Transparency people like you love to tout as a hallmark of this administration.

Bringing a spot light to this issue is bringing attention to the contributory deaths on both sides of the border, esp on our side. We don't need to be contributing to the issue by having our DOJ and ATF giving them more weapons. :rolleyes:

TheMercenary 07-06-2011 04:56 PM
Can you say, "Obstruction"?

Quote:
Another point Melson clarified for investigators was that the ATF group carrying out the mission of Operation Fast and Furious was placed under the direction of the Arizona U.S. Attorney’s office. The U.S. Attorney in Arizona, Dennis Burke, is a political appointee of the Obama administration.

Melson appeared with only his personal attorney at the secret meeting with Congressional investigators. Melson was originally scheduled to conduct the interview on July 13 with Justice Department attorneys and his personal attorney present, but Melson abandoned DOJ representation after learning of a provision in his agreement to testify that allowed him to do so. (Issa staffer: Gunrunner investigation points much higher than ATF director)

“We are disappointed that no one had previously informed him of that provision of the agreement,” Issa and Grassley wrote to Holder on Tuesday afternoon. “Instead, Justice Department officials sought to limit and control his communications with Congress. This is yet another example of why direct communications with Congress are so important and are protected by law.”

Issa and Grassley wrote that Melson’s interview “was extremely helpful to our investigation.” They said Melson told them he did not review the “hundreds of documents” the DOJ is withholding until after the public controversy about the operation. Issa and Grassley said Melson claims he was “sick to his stomach” when he obtained the documents and learned the full story.

The DOJ has not been fully cooperative with a number of Issa’s and Grassley’s requests for documents and other evidence in this investigation. According to the July 5 letter, Issa and Grassley said Melson told them he asked the Office of the Deputy Attorney General (ODAG) to be more cooperative with Congressional requests for information, evidence and documents.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/is...#ixzz1RMfxk6mp

Fair&Balanced 07-06-2011 06:07 PM
I still dont understand why you think an investigation should not be broad enough to address the larger issue -- weak laws and limited resources.

Or why Issa shouldnt begin any investigation by revealing the details of the briefing he received on the program last year and explain why he didnt object.

Quote:
But problems highlighted by the so-called Fast and Furious investigation, which enabled at least 195 guns to cross into Mexico, point to what U.S. authorities say is a broader enforcement crisis. Their efforts to stop drug cartels from smuggling thousands of firearms into Mexico each year are handcuffed, they say, by a debilitating lack of resources and an absence of statutes to outlaw gun trafficking.

Without a targeted federal gun trafficking law, prosecutors are forced to rely on other statutes that agents and prosecutors say are difficult to enforce and riddled with loopholes.

Chief among them: a frequently used law against lying on the ATF’s Form 4473 at a gun shop – especially in claiming the buyer is purchasing for himself, rather than someone else. But court decisions have made this “straw buyer” charge difficult to prove and judges often don’t take it seriously.

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2011/04/01...ay-atf-backers
But I know when the subject of weak laws is raised, the typical response from the right is "just another backhand attempt to weaken the 2nd amendment rights of law abiding citizens. We cant have that!"

Carry on with your one-side crusade for justice or more accurately your obsession to "get Holder" rather than address the issues that could make a difference in gun trafficking on the border.

TheMercenary 07-07-2011 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 743762)
Carry on with your one-side crusade for justice or more accurately your obsession to "get Holder" rather than address the issues that could make a difference in gun trafficking on the border.
What joke. What the hell do you think the whole discussion is about. The gun trafficking is being done by the ATF and the DOJ fool, that is the problem. I can't see why you continue to shill for the Obama administration and think this is a non-issue. I doubt seriously that this will go away esp after the next round of elections.

TheMercenary 07-07-2011 04:59 AM
Now the ATF points fingers at the FBI instead of taking responsibility. Looks like it is going to become a true Mexican stand-off as they all stand in a circle and point loaded weapons at each other.... God damm fools.

[quote]The embattled head of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has told congressional investigators that some Mexican drug cartel figures targeted by his agency in a gun-trafficking investigation were paid informants for the FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration.

Kenneth E. Melson, the ATF's acting director, has been under pressure to resign after the agency allowed guns to be purchased in the United States in hopes they would be traced to cartel leaders. Under the gun-trafficking operation known as Fast and Furious, the ATF lost track of the guns, and many were found at the scenes of crimes in Mexico, as well as two that were recovered near Nogales, Ariz., where a U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed.

In two days of meetings with congressional investigators over the weekend, Melson said the FBI and DEA kept the ATF "in the dark" about their relationships with the cartel informants. If ATF agents had known of the relationships, the agency might have ended the investigation much earlier, he said.[quote]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz1RPbqq4oY

Fair&Balanced 07-07-2011 05:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 743805)
What joke. What the hell do you think the whole discussion is about. The gun trafficking is being done by the ATF and the DOJ fool, that is the problem. I can't see why you continue to shill for the Obama administration and think this is a non-issue. I doubt seriously that this will go away esp after the next round of elections.
Thousands of guns are making their way across the border into the hands of the cartels every year as a result of the AFT and DoJ?

WTF?

Of course, to talk about the need for tougher gun trafficking laws is just not on the table. It is heresy to even mention it.

And you think the problem of the thousands of straw purchases from border gun shops and gun shows will suddenly end now that this program has been exposed.

Right. :rolleyes:

richlevy 07-08-2011 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 741885)
This is Obama's Iran Contra.
I guess that means that Holder will now have to dress up, find a few medals, and imply that he is a better patriot than the Congressmen grilling him.

And then Obama will have to keep on saying 'I forget' when asked about his role. Of course, being relatively young and in good mental health, he would be lying if he did this. The last president to do this was probably already in the grip of Alzheimer's and was telling the truth, much to the eventual surprise of his supporters.

classicman 07-08-2011 12:37 PM
H.R.1 (The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act)
Operation Gunrunner is specifically named for funding in this final version.
Sponsor:
David R, Obey (D)
Co-sponsors:
Barney Frank (D)
Bart Gordon (D)
James L. Oberstar (D)
Charles B. Rangel (D)
John M. Spratt Jr. (D)
Edolphus Towns (D)
Nydia M. Valzquez (D)
Henry A. Waxman (D)

Fair&Balanced 07-08-2011 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman (Post 743959)
H.R.1 (The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act)
Operation Gunrunner is specifically named for funding in this final version.
Sponsor:
David R, Obey (D)
Co-sponsors:
Barney Frank (D)
Bart Gordon (D)
James L. Oberstar (D)
Charles B. Rangel (D)
John M. Spratt Jr. (D)
Edolphus Towns (D)
Nydia M. Valzquez (D)
Henry A. Waxman (D)
Project (Operation) Gunrunner was initiated in 2006. Additional funding was provided through the ARRA in 2009.

Quote:
Gun trafficking to Mexico is a nationwide problem with consequences on both sides of the border. In response, ATF implemented Project Gunrunner in 2006 as a comprehensive strategy to reduce firearms and explosives related violent crime associated with Mexican criminal organizations operating in the U.S. and Mexico by preventing these organizations from unlawfully acquiring and trafficking firearms and explosives....

...Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

...$10 million in ARRA funding is hiring 37 ATF employees to open, staff (via new hire and relocation of senior personnel,) equip, and operate new Project Gunrunner criminal enforcement teams in McAllen, TX; El Centro, CA; and Las Cruces, NM (which includes a subordinate satellite office in Roswell, NM.). Additionally, these funds support the assignment of two special agents to each of the U.S. consulates in Juarez and Tijuana, Mexico to provide direct support to Mexican officials on firearms-trafficking-related issues.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/project-gunrunner/
Operation Gunrunner is not the same initiative as Operation Fast and Furious.

Fair&Balanced 07-08-2011 05:39 PM
Despite the relative success of Operation Gun Runner (as noted in the above) and despite the reckless and serious flawed Operation Fast and Furious, here is the problem that still exists, in the words of ATF officials:
Quote:
Special Agent Peter Forcelli, a senior ATF group supervisor in the Phoenix Field Division, stated that the typical sentence for illegal straw purchases is probation. He also stated that suspects have little incentive to cooperate with investigators or “flip” on higher-level cartel members...

Special Agent Forcelli testified that existing laws were “toothless.” He added: “Some people view this as no more consequential than doing 65 in a 55.” He added: “for somebody to testify against members of a cartel where the alternative is seeing a probation officer once a month, they’re going to opt toward, you know, not cooperating with the law enforcement authorities.”

Special Agent Lee Casa, an ATF field agent with over 20 years of experience, stated that the current practice of charging straw purchases for merely lying on purchase forms was ineffective: “I would say generally speaking there is not a lot of bite in the 924(a)(1)(A) statute as far as penalties and time, time that would be served.”

Multiple law enforcement agents who appeared before the Committee stated that their efforts to combat international drug cartels would be strengthened through the enactment of a federal statute specifically designed to criminalize the trafficking of firearms. Currently, there is no federal statute that specifically prohibits firearms trafficking. Instead, prosecutors attempt to charge traffickers with “paperwork violations,” such as dealing in firearms without a license.

Special Agent Casa reiterated this view during his transcribed interview. He stated: “There is really no trafficking, firearms trafficking statute, per se. It would be nice to have a trafficking statute per se or to enhance some of the penalties on even, on the straw purchasers, just to be a deterrent effect … so we can really hammer these people and just put them in jail.”

During the Committee’s hearing on June 15, Chairman Issa interrupted Committee Members who were asking questions of the law enforcement agents that he invited to testify. In particular, Chairman Issa objected to any questions about whether the nation’s gun laws could be improved to assist these law enforcement agents in their efforts to counter drug violence and firearms trafficking by Mexican drug cartels.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-s...ort_063011.pdf
Like Issa, Mercenary evidently has no interest in having the investigation examine the gun trafficking problem in a manner that night result in actions that could be more effective in stopping the flow of guns across the border.

TheMercenary 07-14-2011 06:25 AM
Tell it to the ATF agents that supplied the guns to the Mexican drug lords and the family of the agent killed by one of the guns supplied in their illegal operation.

Happy Monkey 07-14-2011 10:22 AM
Likewise gun show dealers in Virginia and murder victims in DC?

Fair&Balanced 07-14-2011 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744556)
Tell it to the ATF agents that supplied the guns to the Mexican drug lords and the family of the agent killed by one of the guns supplied in their illegal operation.
So the ATF agents who are concerned about the broader issue of legal straw purchases at guns shows and gun dealers dont matter.

And the deaths of innocent civilians and border agends as a result of the thousands of straw purchases every year that make their way to the drug cartels dont matter.

Evidently one death matters to you....so you can pin it on the ATF and DoJ. How very convenient and political.

So does that make you a shill for the NRA and their Republican puppets in Congress? You know the ones that have blocked a permanent appointment of a director of ATF for five years now and block every attempt to even explore the need for gun trafficking legislation.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744585)
So the ATF agents who are concerned about the broader issue of legal straw purchases at guns shows and gun dealers dont matter.

And the deaths of innocent civilians and border agends as a result of the thousands of straw purchases every year that make their way to the drug cartels dont matter.

Evidently one death matters to you....so you can pin it on the ATF and DoJ. How very convenient and political.

So does that make you a shill for the NRA and their Republican puppets in Congress? You know the ones that have blocked a permanent appointment of a director of ATF for five years now and block every attempt to even explore the need for gun trafficking legislation.
No what matters is the ATF committed crimes and broke the law while sending thousands of guns across the border to Mexico and fueling the deaths of most likely thousands of people not a mile from some of our major cities. You can spin this all you want. That fuck Holder and the head of ATF should be held responsible. I didn't "pin" anything on anyone, the ATF agents that are coming to the forefront to testify are the one's spilling the beans and the Congressional investigation and documents they have obtained support it. The ATF and Justice are stonewalling.

How many gun shows have you been to? There is no evidence that gun shows are a problem. That is propaganda. There are hundreds of gun shows every weekend all across the US.

Stop shilling for the Demoncrats and go back to being a paid lobbyist.

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744702)
No what matters is the ATF committed crimes and broke the law while sending thousands of guns across the border to Mexico and fueling the deaths of most likely thousands of people not a mile from some of our major cities. You can spin this all you want. That fuck Holder and the head of ATF should be held responsible. I didn't "pin" anything on anyone, the ATF agents that are coming to the forefront to testify are the one's spilling the beans and the Congressional investigation and documents they have obtained support it. The ATF and Justice are stonewalling.

How many gun shows have you been to? There is no evidence that gun shows are a problem. That is propaganda. There are hundreds of gun shows every weekend all across the US.

Stop shilling for the Demoncrats and go back to being a paid lobbyist.
Twist it anyway you want, dude. Nothing I havent seen you do in most discussions. Just ignore what you dont like to hear.

The propaganda? Like the bullshit about the secret US and UN plans you shared with us claiming a treaty on arms trafficking will take away your Second Amendment rights.

The propaganda machine is the NRA and their lackeys in Congress who created the environment of gun trafficking by blocking every attempt to address it.

But keep spewing the NRA rhetoric and your personal "Holder is a criminal" bullshit. It simply reinforces what an extremist you are.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744729)
It simply reinforces what an extremist you are.
"Hi Kettle!" :lol2:

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 04:26 PM
Like most issues, you clearly dont want to discuss it in a reasonable and rational manner. Again, no surprise there.

This is just another Mercenary rant. Crying wolf again and again about Holder breaking the law (three times!) when the facts clearly dont support your wild and partisan claims.

Or crying wolf about Obama, Holder, the Democrats and the UN all in a secret plot to get your guns. :eek:

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744802)
Like most issues, you clearly dont want to discuss it in a reasonable and rational manner. Again, no surprise there.
Not with you, you are nothing more than a shill for all things Obama and Demoncrat. Not worth my time. And just like when you ran off with your Redux persona, I still think Pelosi is a cunt.:D

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744803)
Not with you, you are nothing more than a shill for all things Obama and Demoncrat. Not worth my time. And just like when you ran off with your Redux persona, I still think Pelosi is a cunt.:D
Still on this redux delusion, huh?

Avoiding the facts anyway you can in typical Mercenary fashion.

Have fun.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744804)
Have fun.
Oh I am having great fun. Bye.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:46 PM
Great article from PBS on Fast and Furious.

Quote:
Revelations about a U.S. sting program that backfired has provoked new anger in Mexico, where lawmakers and citizens already are upset about the flow of American weapons to Mexican drug gangs.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has been criticized for "Operation Fast and Furious" in 2009, in which it let people purchase weapons it knew would end up in criminals' hands in the United States and Mexico in order to track them and build a case against them.

Two AK-47 rifles connected to the program were found at the scene of the killing of a border agent in Arizona in December. The U.S. House held hearings on the matter in June, where witnesses questioned the reasoning behind the sting since it is difficult for the United States to prosecute criminals in Mexico.
continues:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...d-furious.html

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:49 PM
Can you believe this fool Holder on anything he says... I don't.

Quote:
The Justice Department’s effort to contain the Operation Fast and Furious gunrunning scandal is crumbling. Members of Congress are demanding full disclosure regarding the bizarre scheme to funnel guns to Mexican drug cartels, supposedly to help sniff out the higher-level bad guys. Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. isn’t helping congressional investigators understand the rationale behind this breathtakingly dumb idea.

The so-called Fast and Furious program fit right in with the White House contention that gun shops in the Southwest have been contributing to violence in Mexico. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), part of the Justice Department, started the operation as a sting to arrest purchasers in border states who purportedly were engaging in illegal cross-border arms trafficking. The scheme spun out of control, and the agency reportedly wound up telling gun dealers to proceed with sales even after dealers had raised red flags about certain buyers. In this way, the ATF may have become an accomplice to the smuggling of some 1,700 weapons into Mexico, allegedly leading to the death of U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry near Nogales, Ariz., in December 2010. Two Fast and Furious weapons were discovered at that crime scene, and other such weapons have been found after the deaths of untold numbers of Mexican citizens.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...t-too-furious/

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 06:00 PM
Well, this may go higher than previously thought....

Quote:
The video shows Deputy Attorney General David Ogden, who would resign nine months later after less than a year's service, telling reporters at a Department of Justice briefing of major policy initiatives to fight the Mexican drug cartels.

"The president has directed us to take action to fight these cartels," Ogden begins, "and Attorney General Holder and I are taking several new and aggressive steps as part of the administration's comprehensive plan."

At the president's direction, Ogden said, the administration's plan included DOJ's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives "increasing its efforts by adding 37 new employees in three new offices, using $10 million in Recovery Act funds and redeploying 100 personnel to the Southwest border in the next 45 days to fortify its Project Gunrunner," of which Operation Fast and Furious would be a part.

As we have noted, Attorney General Eric Holder himself gave a speech to Mexican authorities in Cuernavaca, Mexico, on April 2, 2009, taking credit for Gunrunner as well as Fast and Furious for himself and the Obama administration.

Holder told the audience: "Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner."

Listen to the Podcast
Subscribe through iTunes
The administration's animus towards private gun ownership and the Second Amendment surfaced during the 2008 campaign, when President Obama spoke of bitter Pennsylvania townsfolk clinging to their guns. The Chicago Tribune noted that candidate Obama thought the District of Columbia's total gun ban was constitutional, an opinion with which the U.S. Supreme Court disagreed in its Heller decision.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...For-Obama-.htm

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 07:52 PM
So the latest twist is the fact that Obama increased funding for Operation Gunrunner, the anti-trafficking program started by Bush is somehow scandalous? Shame on Obama!

And a speech that Holder made in April of 09 is taking credit for Operation Fast and Furious which didnt begin until later that year?

Now that is a stretch only a true wing nut could believe.

And more paranoia about taking away the guns from law abiding citizens. :tinfoil:

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744823)
So the latest twist is the fact that Obama increased funding for Operation Gunrunner, the anti-trafficking program started by Bush is somehow scandalous? Shame on Obama!

And a speech that Holder made in April of 09 is taking credit for Operation Fast and Furious which didnt begin until later that year?

Now that is a stretch only a true wing nut could believe.

And more paranoia about taking away the guns from law abiding citizens. :tinfoil:
I am beginning to think Obama knows all about it. Hopefully we can come up with something to impeach his happy ass with.
:D

TheMercenary 07-19-2011 06:08 PM
BUSTED!!!!!!!!

Yea, there is no plan to derail Second Amendment rights..... sure.

Quote:
"Internal ATF emails seem to suggest that ATF agents were counseled to highlight a link between criminals and certain semi-automatic weapons in order to bolster a case for a rule like the one the DOJ announced yesterday [Monday]."

Townhall has obtained the email which states "Can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same FfL and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks Mark R. Chait Assistant Director Field Operations."
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...te_gun_control

TheMercenary 07-19-2011 06:16 PM
Quote:
Once again, liberals and the Obama Administration are focused on guns rather than criminals and federal government incomptence. Operation Fast and Furious is looking more and more like a set up from the beginning to push Obama and Holder's radical anti-Second Amendment agenda as they used law abiding gun shop owners to enable government officals to break the law, then turned around and blamed the very same gun shops for illegal gun trafficking, despite those shops being forced by ATF to help ATF agents carry out Operation Fast and Furious, and now, those shops are being punished through new Justice Department gun control measures. Obama and Holder both have long records of being outspoken opponents of gunrights and both support the reinstatement of the "assault" rifle ban, better described as a ban on semi-automatic rifles. From the June issue of Townhall Magazine:

President Obama is calling for "commonsense" gun reforms, but as a man with a long a history of acting to limit Second Amendment rights and advocating gun control who tapped an attorney general with the same ideology -- and possibly the biggest gun trafficking scandal in U.S. history with his name written all over it -- is the president really calling for reforms or more government control?

As an Illinois state senator, Obama endorsed and spoke in support of an outright ban on ownership of all handguns and favored the licensing and registering of gun owners. Before his run for public office in 1996, Obama filled out a questionnaire expressing his support for a ban on the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.

Fair&Balanced 07-20-2011 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 745360)
BUSTED!!!!!!!!

Yea, there is no plan to derail Second Amendment rights..... sure.



http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...te_gun_control
There you go, again. Your paranoia over a non-existing conspiracy to take away guns from law abiding citizens. :tinfoil:

These new regulations simply require dealers in border states to report the sale of two or more semi automatic rifles within five consecutive business days, specifically .22 caliber rifles with detachable ammunition magazines like AK 47's or AR 15's.

Do not such requirements already exist for multiple sale of handguns? So why not weapons like AK-47s?

Why should dealers not be required to report sales like this?
Quote:
On Dec. 11, 2009, 23-year-old Uriel Patino walked into a shopping-center gun shop in Glendale, Ariz., and allegedly bought 20 AK-47 assault rifles. A month later, he allegedly bought 10 more on a single day from the same shop – Lone Wolf Trading – and two weeks after that bought another 15.

By February 2010, authorities say Patino had become a regular customer, hitting the store every few days. On Feb. 15 alone, court documents say he bought 40 AK-47s.

But ATF is powerless to immediately stop these sales, said the bureau’s former official, Bouchard, because there’s nothing illegal about buying a large number of assault weapons.

“It doesn’t look right, but under the law, there’s nothing wrong with it,” he said.

Bouchard said ATF doesn’t have enough agents to put every straw buyer under surveillance, so getting a conviction often means getting a confession. In Fast and Furious, the investigative trail eventually allowed agents able to get wiretaps on Patino and use them to try to prosecute the person orchestrating the scheme. Patino was ultimately charged with 33 others. But the probe dragged on for more than a year.

A straw buyer must sign a form at the gun shop declaring that they are buying the guns for themselves. Lying on the form is a crime. But in order to prove the lie, a prosecutor often must prove what the straw buyer was thinking when he or she bought the gun. Unless that straw buyer immediately delivers the weapon to someone prohibited from purchasing a firearm – like a convicted felon—all the buyer has to claim is that the gun was bought for personal use.

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2011/04/01...ay-atf-backers
Or perhaps, you dont see a problems with sales like these.

Griff 07-20-2011 12:31 PM
You do realize that a 22 cal rifle is very much unlike a 7.62mm AK-47? I think it is stupid to buy a 22 made to look like a serious rifle but the weapon itself is a plinker not a man-stopper. This reminds me of a local NPR radio report out out of Buffalo trumpeting a cash for guns program that got an, unlikely, "12 gauge street sweeper assault rifle" off the street. Reporters and would be regulators need to be a lot less casual and sweeping in their descriptions if the really don't want to feed paranoia. Our gun and anti-gun cultures are both kind of sick.

Fair&Balanced 07-20-2011 02:38 PM
The regs seem pretty specific to me:

...require Federal Firearms Licensees to report multiple sales or other dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of two or more rifles within any five consecutive business days with the following characteristics: (a) Semi automatic; (b) a caliber greater than .22; and (c) the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-31761.pdf

SO if such reporting requirements already exist for multiple sale of handguns, why not weapons like AK-47s?

I'm not interested in taking away any citizens rights, but when someone can walk into a gun store and buy 40 AK-47s at a time with no reporting by the dealer, IMO, there is something wrong with the system.

And I'm still trying to understand how a reporting requirement is a part of a broader plan to take away Second Amendment rights.

Griff 07-20-2011 03:15 PM
Ah, its >.22 cal your previous post mislead me.

TheMercenary 07-21-2011 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff (Post 745487)
You do realize that a 22 cal rifle is very much unlike a 7.62mm AK-47?
Really? I never knew there was a difference....:rolleyes:

TheMercenary 07-21-2011 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 745511)
I'm not interested in taking away any citizens rights, but when someone can walk into a gun store and buy 40 AK-47s at a time with no reporting by the dealer....
Cite asshole.... when and where did that happen, unless of course you are talking about the DOJ scumfucks and the ATF that let it happen. They watched it happen at major gun dealers on the border and then tried to use them as examples as to why the system is broken... when those fucks set the whole thing up to, as the latest emails show, enact more restrictive gun laws.

Put up or shut the fuck up....:D

infinite monkey 07-21-2011 08:26 PM
:corn: This beats a soap opera.

Fair&Balanced 07-21-2011 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 745708)
Cite asshole.... when and where did that happen, unless of course you are talking about the DOJ scumfucks and the ATF that let it happen. They watched it happen at major gun dealers on the border and then tried to use them as examples as to why the system is broken... when those fucks set the whole thing up to, as the latest emails show, enact more restrictive gun laws.

Put up or shut the fuck up....:D
You can rant and rave and call me names, but it wont change the fact that until these regulations were issued last month, there was no requirement for dealers to report multiple sales of these weapons. I cited an example described by an ATF agent and the lack of adequate laws to respond.

I'm open to discussing it with anyone on the other side of the gun issue who wants to discuss the issue rationally and respectfully. There is no point in any further discussion with you.

Urbane Guerrilla 07-23-2011 12:14 AM
Genocides happen in places where there is gun control, and doesn't where there is not. Consult history. The case is very strong: if you want actually to be antigenocide, you be pro-gun, and rigorously, and all the time.

Essentially, to make genocide something practicable, you need a defenseless population to practice it upon. The most efficient way ever found to make a defenseless population is to delegitimize armed self defense and outlaw private weaponry.

The most effective physical defense against any genocide imaginable is the reverse of this: a selective-fire individual weapon over every mantle and two hundred rounds ready ammunition. Whereupon we'd all be Switzerland. Which is notably free of that genocide thing.

On a less grandiose level, you might consult the most recent edition of J. Lott, More Guns, Less Crime. A few crime-loving wishful thinkers allege that Lott's work was debunked. Don't believe a word of it; his scholarship is formidable. It turned Prof. Lott into a longtime gun owner himself. Ruger revolver, I think he said.

Do take care on one point though: asking me, knowing what I do, to treat the genocidal-ideators respectfully is asking for the moon. They not only cannot be respected, they must not be respected.

ZenGum 07-23-2011 03:21 AM
Yeah, all those AK-47s really helped in Libya, didn't they?

TheMercenary 07-23-2011 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGum (Post 746033)
Yeah, all those AK-47s really helped in Libya, didn't they?
I don't think the US sent them.

TheMercenary 07-23-2011 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 745714)
You can rant and rave and call me names, but it wont change the fact that until these regulations were issued last month, there was no requirement for dealers to report multiple sales of these weapons. I cited an example described by an ATF agent and the lack of adequate laws to respond.

I'm open to discussing it with anyone on the other side of the gun issue who wants to discuss the issue rationally and respectfully. There is no point in any further discussion with you.
Yea, well when the ATF and DOJ sell guns illegally to patron who they know are going to take them across the border and kill other Mexican, and a few of our own citizens, then we have a problem. And not a God Damm thing you say about the issue matters one bit, as you shill and make excuses for the racist fuck Eric Holder and the corrupt ATF. Nice try, you loose. I have posted numerous links to original emails from the ATF that show they are corrupt. Hell, it would surprise me if Obamy knew all about as well.... You can ignore the fact all you want, they will not change.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:47 PM.
Page 1 of 3 1 23
Show 60 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.