Hand wringing about Jill leaving.
 

Here is where you can wring your hands over Jill's leaving. Breast beating and brow furrowing is in another thread.

"If only I hadn't been so sarcastic..."

Someone who has been absent for a long time packed up and left after a short visit??? OMGoes to get another bowl of cereal...

But I want to beat my breasts here!

Well, since I was the one who made the fuss about it:

I am a little pissed she's gone, but to be honest i was more pissed that yet another seemingly reasonable person has been driven away by aggression and personal attacks when attempting to have a political discussion.

But hey, if you want to characterise that as handwringing over the loss of one member you go right ahead.

She'll be back.

Maybe, maybe not. Really not the point though.

Last time she left for how long? a year or two? Just long enough to forget what drove her off the last time (getting into a firefight with a wingnut in the politics forum) and then she came back and was given a stark reminder.

Well done us.

OFFS she's clearly an attention ho -moreso than me, even. Would you have mourned so if she had dressed to the right rather than the left?

It takes two to tango. It should have been apparent from the first half-dozen posts that she wasn't going to convince either UG or Merc of anything. No harm if she wants to continue past that point, that's her call, but it's kind of silly to cry foul and leave when you only got what you insisted upon receiving.

If she'd dressed to the right and been treated the way she's been treated in the politics forum, yes.

I really don't see she was an attention whore. She clearly enjoys having a political debate. It's just a shame that isn't really an option in here.

I also like having a political debate but I rarely do so these days.

@ Clod: Jill recognised her role with Merc and fessed up to it. Then got shat on somewhat more mildly, but still as far as i can see for no real reason, by someone else. Less of an attack, but on the back of the previous one, I can see why she just thought oh fuck it. Y'know, it just isn't worth it.

A sentiment I can fully relate to.

Just to be absolutely clear: though I like Jill, I don't really know her that well. I'm not oh so upset that she isn't here. I'm annoyed at the way this keeps happening. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. Reasonable people attempting to have a robust political discussion with people of varying opinions end up being subjected to personal attacks and trying to argue rationally with people who are being irrational.

That doesn't make for a fun debate.

I have lots to say about politics, but I won't say it here. I've observed that there is no possibility whatsoever of a reasonable political debate on these forums.

Right. So, if your main gig is politics and you come to the Cellar expecting to be able to engage in that subject with other people who are interested in politics, you can expect to be insulted, derided and disrespected.

Little surprise then that we keep losing political animals.

It is not healthy.


And as for the left-right split: I don't know why it is, because there are rational and reasonable people of all stripes in the cellar, but the ones that tend to get driven away by this shit do tend to be the left-leaning ones. The most vehement and consistent nastiness seems to come primarily from the right. That's not to say everyone on the right is doing this, but there is a definate imbalance as far as i can see.

No word of a lie, I have had friends express an interest in joining the Cellar and I have warned them away. Because they are into politics and are on the left. So, I know what they'll be faced with when they attempt to engage in a political discussion.

And if they do end up being driven away well, as has bene pointed out in another thread: their fault for being too political right?

Couldn't possibly be that we as a community simply cannot be trusted to engage with people of differing political viewpoints in an adult and respectful manner.

Dana I love ya, you commie tart but if you think right or left matter in the politics forum anymore you need a serious rethink. Merc and UG are really not that different than spexx and whoever his latest little puppy in crime happens to be at the time. You just happen to agree more often than not with the view from the left so don't notice it. Political discussion in the cellar has been dead for a long time. Now it is just a statement and restatement of positions followed by escalated name calling poopslinging.

I don't get why we're supposed to feel like hand-wringing wussies if we express that we think Jill got run out on a proverbial rail. Sure, she could have done things differently. So could you. And you. And me. I can still think we might have lost a unique voice.

Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere. I'm here to annoy you for as many years as I'm alive. ;)

Actually I notice it with Spexx as well. And with Tw.

I am not for one moment suggesting that there is no nastiness from leftwing posters, or that the right has a monopoly on this shit. But the majority of people who've been 'driven away' by the nasty political fights over the last year or so have been left-leaning.

You're right though, that it isn't just a matter of left v right. This is about our cultural approach to politics in our community. I am equally disturbed by leftwing posters launching personal attacks and treating their opponents with contempt as I am when it happens the other way around. I see more of it from the right than from the left.

Now, you can suggest that this is because I am leftwing and therefore sympathise with the leftwing posters' views: but I do not sympathise with personal attacks and disrespect, and I think I am rational and open enough to spot the difference between a well-crafted response and a shitty attack regardless of which end of the political spectrum it is coming from. And, in that light, i tell you I see more of that from the right against the left than the other way around.

Of course that might just be a matter of numbers. There seem to be more right-leaning, or centre-right posters overall than left-leaning or centre left posters in this community. Consequently if a similar proportion of each are dickheads, then there will be an imbalance to the right.



[eta] Just for clarity: I raised the left-right aspect of this because Monster asked if I'd have responded the same way had Jill been on the other side of the divide. My view overall is that this is a wider problem than just a left-right spat. This is about how we do politics in the Celllar. It's about people coming here expecting rational discussion and instead facing unpleasant attacks.

I second everything that Dana has said in this thread.

I cross borders quite a bit but am probably center-right. I consider UG to be a cartoon, but Merc is a mean bastard here. IM is much meaner than Spexx, but the left crowd tends to dog-pack, rotating because Merc/UG are always looking for a fight and normal people tire of being like that. I feel bad that we can't discuss politics here anymore, but I did my best to rid us of Merc before to no avail. So we will have a watered down cellar... er leaky basement er something.

I second this second of everything Dana said.

Mean old monkey.

We all take our turn at it.

I second this second of the first second.

And this too.

Anyone else for sloppy seconds?

I'm sorry to see her go too. Political discussion is always perilous both online and in person.

there isn't much debate going on in the Politics forum. And that's a goddamn shame. It should be renamed "Argument Clinic" or "Shouting".

I see debate as a contest of ideas, using words and ears and eyes. Also, for competitve debates where the only idea is to win we have the kinds of debaters for that but no impartial judges. but that kind of debating is to my mind NOT what the Politics forum is for, certainly not what I want in the politics forum. I want to be informed, perhaps to be persuaded. I want to learn. And that means an open mind, but there isn't much of that on display. Very little express acknowledgment that the "other side" has much valid to offer. It seems such an admission is tantamount to a sign of weakness--anathema to the current tone.

It's not just in the cellar. I see and hear it all over the place. It's just as sad there too, and just as useless.

Among my high priorities, what is good for the country ranks right up there. And I *wish* the discussions were 1 -- among people who shared such priorities, and 2 -- that there would be more listening and openmindedness as to the method by which we reach our putatively shared goals.

It's sad and frustrating.

Precisely, Biggie;

I wonder whether there is some way a better debate can actually be facilitated. Maybe with an official debate moderator, who only lets posts through if they contain no attack.

Proposal of debate agreed to beforehand

Posts limited to 500 words

Onlookers can flag a fallacious argument

A debater can tap out and be replaced by another of his/her choosing

What about if you just use the 'report abuse' feature', and if someone gets 3 or 5 or 7 or whatever number of posts for the same post, they get a 24 hour ban?

I think this is a good idea because for one thing, it means it's not left up to just one person to decide if the post is bad or not, but also, if the discussion is that heated, perhaps the poster could benefit from a short break to collect their thoughts.

That's not really how the feature works though. That leaves it to moderators, which is not really what the mods are for.

Do you think it's worth asking them what they think about the idea? Or even other members?

I've been thinking about this idea for a while, so it's not just off the top of my head.

I wonder how well this thread would've gone over if I had started it and named it, oh, let's say, Hand Wringing over Merc. Or Ali. Or whomever.

Bet there'd be a lot of slapping me down for having the audacity to even THINK of starting such a thread.

LOL...I don't think too many would have slapped you down if you named it after me.

There may be some mileage in moderated debate threads? I personally never go into the politics forum. Initially this was because I don't understand US politics, more recently it's been because I hear that it's a slanging match rather than a debating forum.
I'd be willing to try being a politics thread moderator (for one thread) if that would help to try an experiment?

The problem with moderation is that sometimes slanging matches are not a bad thing. It sort of depends on the participants and levels of assumed or implied permissions between them. Where those match and are in sync (regardless of political persuasion) a good slanging match can be good fun. Where those do not match and are not in sync, then again regardless of political persuasion, a slanging match is likely to cause genuine offence.

Lookout and I are about as opposed to each other politically as it is possible to be, yet we can happily throw shit at each other within the bounds of our assumed permissions without it being a problem. Most of the time it's in jest. Very occasionally we have had heated disagreement. Classicman and I similarly are able to have very heated arguments, and actually piss each other off from time to time, or overstep those accepted parameters and cause mild offence, without that turning into anything really ugly.

Most of the time, with Merc, he and I are acting within parameters we have organically agreed upon. The bounds of those parameters are somewhat wider than with other posters. I am happy to have a slanging match within those paremeters and we do so quite often. What's unpleasant to witness, or participate in, is a slanging match that disregards mutually agreed parameters, or is operating where no such thing yet exists. This last in relation particularly to newcomers.

This is one of the problems really. So much of this stuff is context dependant.

I don't discuss politics here because my political views often have an emotional basis. That makes for poor debate. I wonder if some of the other participants might want to question whether they have the same problem.

Theoretically, we're all grown ups here, and should be willing to accept the consequences of posting without expecting that it all be roses and puppies when you do ... Dana, unless your friends are exceedingly fragile, there's no need to warn them off.

This.

It's not that they're fragile. They'd just get so annoyed that they wouldn't want to come back.


And it's not about expecting things to be sunshine and roses either. It's about expecting a modicum of respect and being able to discuss things without it always finishing in the deep end.

Nobody is forcing them to come, to stay, or to leave. Every adult person makes their own decisions. . . . NO EXCEPTIONS.

Oh well. There we go. Problem solved.

Of course, if people who are trying to debate a point can't take a personal attack it must be their problem.

Absolutely.

The problem with that, Wolf, is that there are certain people who try to dominate the discussions by posting obsessively and who attempt to intimidate the posters with personal attacks and incessant mockery.

Why bother? Honestly.

Subjectivity is a condition we cannot avoid. Human interactions cannot be put into a flowchart of "if this, then that" because the question of "if" can never be resolved. What is fragile? What is sunshine and roses? What is respect--how is it displayed, and how is it violated? What is an attack? When does a debate become an argument?

These are rhetorical questions. Whatever answer you have in your head is applicable only to yourself and yourself alone. You can't impose these things. Only by rule of written law can a collective will be imposed.

So the question is: do we want to live in a constrained society, bound by rigid roles deemed "acceptable" by the noisiest complainers, or do we want to grow the fuck up, shut the fuck up, and forget about this crybaby bullshit?

Well that told me.

Good.

Twat.

Can a person be "thread banned" or "subforum banned" for not playing nicely? That might allow a person to remain is the cellar at large but unable to post vitriol in the politics thread. Maybe that would allow those of us who are able to debate respectfully a chance to once more participate in politics thread.

red and yellow cards! That's what we need.


And a 'sin bin'

And this will work because the banned person cannot make a new thread in an unbanned part of the forum? I think when someone is being an ass we should just call them on it and only respond with the word twat to everything they post. :)

This!

Good idea if possible.

Dear Flint,
Shut the fuck up. You are one moran whose opinion does not matter.
xoxoxo,
Griff

You're right, Griff. My opinion equally doesn't matter. Your opinion equally doesn't matter. Ideally, we should operate as adults making independant decisions, and taking personal responsibility. Pointing fingers, blaming others, making excuses, and tattle-taling: these are things that children get in trouble for. Adults have learned not to do these things. Let's be adults.

There is no such thing as society.

Interesting idea. That right there is a thread starter in itself.

blah blah fucking blah

The Cellar is more than just a random collection of strangers. It is a community. We have, and continue to evolve accordingly. Unusually for an internet community we are very lightly moderated. Something I am very glad is the case. Because we do not have a clear ruleset and moderator enforcement, we self-manage as a community for the most part. Again, this is something I am glad of.

There is nothing wrong with (and I would argue that it is actually beneficial and possibly even necessary that we do) occasionally taking a step back and looking at what culture we have evolved into. Since we have few structural mechanisms of control, informal mechanisms would seem a logical alternative.

This whole thing started (I think) when I posted in the 'scorching your groove' thread about Jill leaving. And when I said in another thread that I was millimetres away from leaving myself. Not because Jill had left, but because of what I perceived as a recurring problem. Basically, I got a little glum at a particular aspect of Cellar culture and expressed my frustration.

Now, I could just shut the fuck up and never comment about this sort of thing again. But to do that I'd have to make myself care a little less.

I love the cellar. I'm very proud of it most of the time. I identify with it as part of who I am, it is a community I feel a part of. I absolutely reserve the right to give a shit about who and what we are.

Yes! What I said is nonsense! That's the spirit!

Who am I supposed to agree with?

me!

Dana, I'm glad you care. Caring is the #1 ingredient that, if missing, is irreplacable. My personal take on whathever the "situation" is that we are fretting over is that I don't know what it is and I don't care what it is. I don't trouble myself over that kind of thing.

What I do know is that I randomly responded to a random post in a random thread, not knowing or caring what forum it was in or what the perceived problems were in that forum, and the next thing I know I've got a freaking strikeforce of enraged vigilantes coming at me with torches and pitchforks.

Let me say again: I do not give a shit about your petty squabbles and complaints about whatever forum you feel has whatever problem. I don't know about it, and I don't care about it.

But if you decide to target your righteous anger against ME, then I guarantee that you can FUCK. RIGHT. OFF.