Wild West Politics?
 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-s...na/developing/

AZ Rep. Gabrielle Giffords Killed

Congresswoman shot
 

This is terrible news.


"Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, 40, has been shot at a public event on Saturday in her home state. There are conflicting U.S. media reports about whether the congresswoman and several others who were rushed to the hospital following the shooting spree in Pima County, Arizona, survived. Authorities are reporting the suspected gunman was taken into custody.

FBI agents were rushed to the shooting scene near a Safeway grocery store in northwest Tucson where Democratic Congresswoman Giffords was hosting a public event to speak with her constituents.

Witnesses say a gunman ran up and fired off 15 to 20 shots. They say the young man shot the congresswoman in the head, before trying to run off.

But witnesses say he was tackled by a bystander, and taken into custody.

President Barack Obama released a statement at the White House saying the shooting was a senseless and terrible act of violence that has no place in a free society.

Right before the shooting, the congresswoman for Arizona’s 8th congressional district had used the micro-blogging site Twitter to write that her first so-called “Congress on Your Corner” event was starting. She asked people to let her know what was on their mind.

Giffords was re-elected to her third term in November. Her office was among the politicians whose offices were targeted with vandalism and threats during the health care debate in 2009. "

This saddens me. I don't know what else to say. This country is nuts.

Why doesn't anyone shoot insurance executives?

Hope you guys don't mind that I used my moderator secret powers to merge your two threads ... they are in order of posting.

This is a thoroughly fucked up situation. I can't say anything else about it.

Initial reports were that she was dead, as of 1600 hours foxnews.com is saying critical condition and in surgery.

No info is being released about the suspect as yet.

<

Because for now there is unemployment benefits, welfare and medicaid. But keep whittling away at those and who knows how the poor unwashed masses will respond.

z

Namecalling isn't particularly productive.

It's about 4 hrs after the event and the hospital reports are
that Rep. Giffords is out of surgery and is still alive.

Of course the talking heads are putting a political spin on this,
but since it's an "on-going investigation" the LE people
are less than satisfying in what they are willing to say.

So, maybe it's immigration politics, or an premeditated attack on a federal judge,
or maybe it's a simple robbery gone wrong. I don't know.

Whatever the motivations, the political gurus are already making the most of it to their own ends.

>

thanks for the merge, wolf.

Her 75 year old father was asked what, if any, enemies she had and he said, "the entire tea party,"

I wonder how Sarah Palin feels about her line, "Don't retreat, RE-LOAD!" now?

Even though she wasn't the Tea Party's Candidate, Ms. Gifford was pro-gun and supported the Arizona immigration laws.

If the attribution on this video is correct, the boy was crazy.

)

more....

A lone gunman, described by witnesses as being a white man in his late teens or early twenties, fired into a crowd gathered for a "Congress in your Corner" event outside a supermarket.

Her father Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies.

"Yeah," he told The New York Post. "The whole tea party."

Miss Giffords had been named in March as a political campaign target for conservatives in November’s elections by former Alaska governor Sarah Palin for her strong support for the health reforms of President Barack Obama.

yeah, I likes me some Elvira. :)

Giffords may have been targeted by conservatives... but this particular shooter was against "mind control," and had invented a new currency for the US. He was a nutjob.

*

I am disappointed that this was moved from the politics forum. If there was ever a topic that needed to be seen in there this is it. :neutral:

I only merged, I didn't adjust the forum.

it's 50/50 Politics vs. Current Events.

Wasn't it merged into the thread with the first post?

I made the first post and it was in the Politics forum where this IMO belonged. I erased my comments because they are not really about CURRENT EVENTS

Yep. Nirvana's post was earlier than Brianna's.

In retrospect, although this is about a political figure, it really is a Current Event, IMO.

The Arizona congresswoman shot today outside a Tucson Safeway, was featured on Sarah Palin's infamous 'crosshairs' map, which targeted legislators who voted for Obama's health care bill. Remember? The map that was criticized as an incitement to violence?

NOW can we muzzle and hog-tie SP?

NOW can we muzzle and hog-tie SP?

I dunno can we talk about politics in the current events? ;)

Nivana, I dont see why you cant have it put back in politics, if you want it there.

I knew this would involve political discussion that is why I put it there in politics. I had hoped for civil discussion since people died but it matters not I already erased my posts because they were not pertinent to a current events thread.

I am mad as hell that some people put no value on human life and make political websites or FB pages wishing people dead on both sides of the political spectrum. These people are no better than the extremists that crashed into the twin towers. They are homegrown terrorists. SP included.

Her opponent did something similar this June.

From the Arizona Star...

Is the implication here that Palin intended this as an outcome? Are you suggesting that, absent the crosshair map, the shooter would have decided to write a sternly-worded letter to the editor instead?

Please, spell this out for me. How is there ANY moral responsibility on Sarah Palin for this incident? Vaguely gesturing at a map with crosshairs won't do, explain it to me like I'm an idiot.

Because, if you can't, then you're endorsing the worst kind of idiotic brainless hysteria.

I don't think you can make a plea for reasonableness here Smooth. This rocket will go to the moon. And it wont matter that there is little connection between the killer and the campaign strategy used... their choices were that irresponsible. Both SP and Jesse Kelly have just scrubbed this stuff from their websites.

Whoa, weren't the comments related to the subject of this thread? If so, there's no reason to erase them. It doesn't make any difference what forum it's in, it could be in Home Base for that matter, comments relate to the subject, not the forum.

Her intention was to make political hay, for sure. I doubt this was her intended outcome, and if it was, it couldn't be proven.

We're walking a fine line here, with freedom of speech, political or not, and ridiculous calls for revolution that only nutballs would act on. Unfortunately there are nutballs out there, and calls to "take back our country",(to 1850), have consequences. It's neither responsible nor productive, it rhetoric and counter productive.

SM, of course there is no direct, explicit connection between SP and anything else,
including whatever motivations might be associated with this shooting event.
At this point we still have not heard anything from the authorities about his motivations.
Personally, I'm not yet willing to guess what motivated this fellow.

But there is something to be said for the responsibilities of leadership,
both right/left, liberal/conservative,... or whatever,
to NOT bring the bugs out of the woodwork.

Over the past 2 years, SP has managed to do this.
Did she intend there to eventually be a shooting ? Almost certainly not.
Did she intend to stir up crowds ? Of course.
But could some event like this one or another be expected ? Some people do think so.
It's ironic that you and I just tonight posted about an important song
devoted to what happened when some leaders pushed out too far.

But this shooting does show that words do matter.
Everyone wants a reason or someone to blame, and it was predictable that SP
would be discussed based on her leadership style in campaigning words and ads.
Of course we do not know SP's motivations or whether she, herself,
feels any moral responsibility derived from her earlier campaigns.

This is absurd in the extreme. Should we blame J.D. Salinger for what a handful of nut-jobs did after reading his work?

The rhetoric of politics as war is at least as old as Pericles, and it has been used by every party, in every election, in every country in the world. This time, there happened to be a graphic.

Should politics be more civil? Maybe, although it never has been. But that's not what this discussion is about. That is a red herring. This is about one radical violent person who did something abhorrent, and to make political hay out of it is sickening.

The fact that you aren't seeing it and actually fighting it so hard is pretty sickening, SM. In fact its really scary. AND you are actually poo-pooing violent right-wing rhetoric as simply par for the course. I think it got really out hand these last two elections.

It's kind of early to determine if the shooter's motives were political or not.
But that doesn't keep me from thinking Palin's rhetoric is wrong.

One thing I do know, Lamplighters saying it could have been a simple robbery gone wrong, is the best laugh I've had in a week.

Enjoy :)

I was thinking about what a left wing proxy for the map would be. It is imperfect but the omnipresent Che t-shirt carries the same implied message of violence if things don't go "our" way. I haven't seen leadership wear the things though. I don't think we should limit speech and one positive of that is the Democrats can now beat the Republicans over the head with their own stupid graphic. It remains to be seen if the Dems will "wave the bloody shirt" or try to ease the tension.

You're welcome.

Sarah Palin is a brunette Ann Coulter.

does that help?

http://cellar.org/2010/demmap.jpg

It will turn out the lad is paranoid schizophrenic.

And daily Kos removed this:

http://cellar.org/2010/screen-shot-2...-56-04-pm1.png

It will turn out the lad is paranoid schizophrenic.

That is a ridiculous notion. As Griff rightly pointed out do we blame anarchists uprisings and violence during the G-8 meetings and around the world on his writings? Left-wing rhetoric gets a pass?

Stop blaming the politicians like Palin and Bush for everything that is screwed up in our nation and how individuals decide to act when becoming violent. Sort of like blaming the US government and our actions in the world for 9/11.

all this reminds me of Terry Gilliam's film The Fisher King.

Incorrect. According to a source on CNN this am, The Dept. of Homeland Security did that.

Furthermore he was, according to a friend on CNN, a radical LEFT Wing extremist.
She also said that he had become more unstable over the last few years.

This all matters naught. Political extremists have and always will exists. Some who believe everything on the "other team" as being horrible and not worthy of anything simply because they are on the "other team" have existed since the beginning of politics.
There are many here who believe such rhetoric. Look at yourselves first. SP is a guilty in this as you or I - NOT AT ALL.
I don not like the woman at all and think she is completely unfit to lead anything more than a girl scout troop, if that, but to blame her for the actions of this idiot is unconscionable. You should be ashamed.

I'm embarrassed for those of you who saw this as nothing more than another chance to attack those who's ideals you differ with.

Wolf, EXCELLENT job putting this in Current Events. That's what this is. This kid is severely mentally unstable and THAT is what caused this tragedy.

It really is hard not to. Those types have created so many problems and then openly encourage hate.

A trend is obvious. Unstable people are encouraged to own automatic guns with extra large clips. Multiple death massacres are now increasing because an underlying attitude common in Congress, on the radio (Limbaugh), and openly encouraged even by extremists inspiring the most easily deceived.

Why did Christine O’Donnell set new records for campaign contributions? What stable person would contribute so much money to a witch? She even advocates more religion in government (did not even know the 1st amendment to the Constitution). Hate inspires these supporters who know only due to emotions.

We should blame Muslims for a mosque on sacred ground in Manhattan next to whore houses and betting parlors? Blame immigrants for our less educated population. Blame evil Tarp on Obama when George Jr created it. Blame ... well who do we blame next month? Aliens? All examples of hate. Too many people have voices in their heads rather than facts. And those voices listen to messages of hate. Including package bombs in Washington and bombing government buildings in Oklahoma. Hate always works to promote wacko extremism. Nutjobs simply lead the charge. A precursor to what can get worse.

This gunning will only encourage more to think extremist. To hear hate. Knowledge inspired by emotion. Limbaugh, Hannity, etc are on the radio promoting mockery and hate daily. Likud also called for the assassination of Rabin to destroy the Oslo Accords. And so some nutjob did what they wanted.

What do we expect from the least stable among us? He did exactly what public extremism and ignorance encourages. Complete with automatic weapons that we should all have. Hate says we should all have even more destructive weapons. Nutjobs are the first to follow these encouragements. They are why extremism works.

Its not about left verse right wing. That is extremists promoting their agenda. It is extremist anti-Americans verse patriotic moderates. Which is why America requires every citizen to be educated. So that anti-Americans called extremists (and their nutjob activists) will be less in numbers.

Additionally Smoothmoniker, Bruce and UT are spot on - as usual.

The dog has caught its own tail -- and is now eating it.

The successful one?

Kill Rupert Murdoch. :p:

You better hope nobody does, or you'll be held morally responsible, apparently.

I could live with that.

And so it goes...xoB feels the need to one-up the discussion.

People are making so many assumptions that fit with their own point of view.
Even a day later, there is NO information that points to the motives of this shooter
Instead, the only information the news media has come up with
is pointing towards pre-existing mental problems.


NY Times
Arizona Suspect’s Recent Acts Offer Hints of Alienation
By ERIC LIPTON, CHARLIE SAVAGE and SCOTT SHANE
Published: January 8, 2011


If one just has to find a political motivation, there's a closer tie in to a different victim... Chief Justice Roll.
His decision in a recent immigration case ran seriously counter to the prevailing mood in Arizona .

NY Times
Amid Shock, Recalling Judge’s Life of Service
By JOHN SCHWARTZ


So far, the prevailing assumption is that the shooter went to the scene with premeditation.
No one has even posited that the shooter was in the store by coincidence,
and came outside to the confusion of flags and people around him, and then just went off his rocker.
I know my senario is not likely, but I use it to point out the lack of information at this point in time.

For all this to lead a discussion for a call to kill someone else is beyond me.

The pen[keyboard] is mightier than the sword[gun] ..

Temperance is a forgotten virtue.

Well the M.O. of a paranoid schizophrenic, and wolf put your two cents in, is that he hears voices in his head giving him various motives to kill, or becomes otherwise delusional, psychotic, and separated from reality.

Now it turns out the kid shot the Congresswoman first, and then went down the meeting line of people waiting to greet her, shooting them one by one.

Yeah.

They are saying the police are looking for a person of interest that was with the suspect. It would not be the first time that things were done using a mental deficient to do the dirty work. Is that one of the voices in his head? He showed up on the shopping mall videos.

A few comments from some who apparently knew him.

from whatever this place is ... The Jawa Report.




and from Time

Of course it didn't take some extremists long to blame the other side.

MSNBC's Olbermann blames Republicans for Tucson shooting

Olbermann is an idiot.

Deflect all you want guys, its just not going to matter how bat-shit insane the killer is, politicians who use gun terminology in their rhetoric ("don't retreat - reload!" from Palin, “ Second Amendment remedies” from Angle, and "Armed And Dangerous" from Bachmann) are acting dangerously irresponsible and this tragic event it is putting their behavior front and center.

Look at what is considered safe to express nowadays because of their rhetoric...

Bullshit. Let's ban Airplanes because of 9/11.:rolleyes:

Man that First Amendment is a bitch ain't it? :rolleyes: They must be responsible for all the violence in America.