11/4/2002: Gay Games open
 

http://cellar.org/2002/gaygames.jpg

In Sydney over the weekend, the Sydney Gay Games opened for its sixth time. They have 12,000 competitors from 80 nations, no word on whether the 2000 Olympics facilities are in use. Participating in the opening was the very fine singer k.d. lang, who also celebrated her 41st birthday. (No, that's not k.d. on the ice there.)

I wonder whether it's more a sporting event or more a cultural event.

Yeah, I've always had a bit of a negative reaction to events such as these - gay games, indiginous games, etc.

I'm all for people's rights to do whatever they want. The pride marches are a wonderful spectacle, highlighting alternative lifestyles, and attract thousands of people to watch.

You don't see the 'caucasian games' or 'hetrogames'. There is nothing stopping either of the two afore mentioned groups from partaking in mainstream athletic competition.

....let the flames begin!.....

Re: 11/4/2002: Gay Games open
 

Grandma???

C'mon Tony...most of us can tell k.d. from DQ. :-)
Especially since k.d. is more of a drag king.
Um....what planet are you posting from again?

What I really want to know is, what the heck is he... uh... she... um... that person, holding in.... er.... damn you, pronouns! Anyway what is that thing? A frying pan? An oversized castanet?

I'd say it's a bit of both: a celebration of the culture, and a love of sport. Good stuff.

When I first saw k.d. perform on TV (with the Reclines), I thought she was a he.

The REAL issue here is that Shepps thinks she's a fine singer. What the hell is wrong with you?! Let me guess...you bought Kenny G's new CD the minute it hit the shelves, didn't you? ;)

It's editorial! Post an image with one person in it, and then write a story with one person in it, and most people will think there's a connection. Probably more people have seen kd lang than haven't, but certainly there are a lot who haven't.

And she's a fine singer, with a great voice. And so were the "American Idol" candidates. If you go for that sort of thing.

I think <i>The Consequences of Falling</i> and <i>Barefoot</i> are great cuts. The pic on the back of <i>Invincible Summer</i> shows how femme she can look too.

It's all in jest. I don't particularly care for her music, but she's not a bad singer. :)

Hey! I liked the cowpunk kd. She was fun. She's gone all famous and adult contemporary, and that's too bad.

But as that great crooner Stompin' Tom Connors recalls...

Where the wild roses grow in Alberta-
On the banks of the Gooseberry lake
There's a rose I suppose that you hearda-
She's as mild as a wild Irish wake
Like a thorn she was born to be contrary
Like a boy's was her joy raising cain.
The wildest rose that ever drove on the prairie
behind the wheel of a big truckload of grain.
Chorus
Little k, little d, little l-a-n-g
Her name was just plain kd lang
But her main claim to fame was how she sang with a twang
And jumped around like a 'rangytang
lady k.d. lang

Hmm
 

Someone might try to make the point that promoting ridiculous steretypes(i.e., all gay men are promiscuous perverts who do things like go around dressed in women's clothing) is probably not the best way to acheive mainstream acceptance of homosexuality. Perhaps it would be better to communicate the idea that not all homosexuals are potential child-molestors who talk with a lisp.

Oh oh ... here we go.

Where the hell did that whole paedophillia link come fron anyway (apart from the catholic church)? Always seemed really silly to me. This sort of wierd idea that all those evilevil ungodly sexual peversions were somehow all interlinked or something.

This one *i'm* probably going to get flamed for (how unusual) but why can't gay athletes compete in the normal olympics?

They do...Greg Louganis (though I don't believe he was out at the time).

Hmmm...I see this in the same way I do the NAACP: Something that allows people of a certain group to celebrate...well, themselves, after being unable to do so for so long (though I don't think the Gay Games are necessarily on the political tip). I'm all for it.

He was out as soon as he hit the board. ;)

Gay Games, Gray Games, the Aussies keep rollin' after the 2000 Olympics.

Caucasians and heterosexuals haven't been abused and ostracised like gays have been. Gays need to do these sort of things to reinforce their own community, sometimes the only community that will accept them.

Should be in melbourne, we've got the highest rate of same sex couples in the world. I donno it all seems silly to me, madi gras etc fine but do we need a seperate everything for every bloody minority? I mean you're not going to find much antigay sentiment here (even one of our high court judges in openly gay and works for gay rights) and europe is equally if not more liberal and most of asia doesn't give a damn i mean it seems a tad pointless. On the other hand someone needs to make use of the billions in infrastructure sydney built.

Re: Hmm
 

Well, the drag queen in the picture is neither molesting children nor lisping. I'm assuming he's a DQ as opposed to a transvestite based on the rather overboard makeup job.

GLBT folks have their own events because mainstream culture is still pretty oppessive. There's one hell of a big gap between "not finding much anti-gay sentiment" and having a space where it not only physically *safe* to be queer, but where various forms of queerness are actually routinely accepted.

Is there still much? Really? I'm mean pubicly its not going to be tollerated, lots of guys are a bit but thats just insecurity and generally predictable male behaviour, i'd say 1/5 at most. Its no PC, its not accepted i'd somehow doubt at something like the olympics it'd be tollerated at all. The only guys i can think of that are actually antigay as such are military types

Sadly, there is still quite a bit of anti-gay sentiment in this country...the 90s helped usher in more tolerance, but the hate is still there. Just less overt...like racism.

So long as you keep it in yer pants laddies. No, not you ladies!

Re: Re: Hmm
 

The point I'm trying to make is that holding "Gay Games" set apart from simple mainstream events like the Olympics, all the organizers are doing is promoting the factionalism and tribalism that prevents mainstream acceptable of gays and lesbians. Think about what Joe Sixpack sees when he hears about the 'Gay Games' and sees some crossdressing skater? Does he thing "Gee, homosexuals are human beings, just like me."? Or does he think "Damn queers are a bunch of deviants"?

I think it's better that homosexuals be accepted as fellow human beings, rather than being accepted as strange aberrations.

> Caucasians and heterosexuals haven't been abused and ostracised like gays have been.

you don't play basketball, do you?

No, I hate sports. :)

Yes.

And "insecurity typical male behavior" is hardly an excuse. God, listen to yourself: "Well, there really isn't *much*, it's not done in public, and of course boys will be boys, they're just insecure..." .

No, it isn't done in public in the West, they just find your body in the morning. Not to mention the other countries where you can be publically executed for being queer.

Re: Re: Re: Hmm
 

Oh, it's <b>factionalism</b> that prevents the mainstrem from accepting queer folk! And here I thought it was homophobia. Silly me, I should have realized it was just those damn queers being factionalist...obviously it's their fault. Why can't they just be normal and blend in like everybody else?
Well, I would imagine that offering that one image as representative of the games was done by a Joe Sixpack photo editor. There's no shortage of normal-looking athletes at the Games, but that's not interesting to Joe, and doesn't sell any papers.

When gay pride events occurr in SF, manstream press coverage is guaranteed to include 1) The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, who rollerskate in nuns habits, 2) the NAMBLA contingent, who have since been disinvited from the parades, 3) the leather afficionados. Queer folks just being people isn't worthy of coverage. Those of us in the <a href="http://www.pinkpistols.org">Pink Pistols</a> locally have gotten a fair amount of press being photographed shooting at things, with emphasis on our female members....lesbians with guns has serious erotic potential for some guys.

I dunno, there is just something endearing about a drag queen.

A tale of closed closets in the NFL locker room....

Reality check. Any minority anywhere is going to get a bit of persecution. Simple as that. People fear things they don't understand or are not familiar with, doesn't matter whether its the chess club, gays, furries, white bball players the list is endless. I think the short and sweet of it is get the fuck over it. From what I’ve seen gay bashings now are about as common as KK killings and other extremists movements, that is not going to change and I think zorg does have a point that establishing separate events where it is highly debatable they are needed does alienate people which certainly is not going to help. There is a huge difference between a bit of insecurity and killing people. One of my best friends is a lesbian, she’s been abused verbally for PDAs in public by strangers, big deal, anyone who stands out and is different is going to cop crap, I’m sure we all have at one point in our lives or another.

If we're going to talk about White basketball players, or hell any professional sports where blacks dominate. Remember that it hasn't been that long ago that blacks were not accepted. And it wasn't protesting that brought about this change, it was some progressive white male who realize that blacks had skills and refused to care what others thought.

The most recent major controversy regarding minors in sports has been the hiring of black coaches in college football. I think there are something like 4 black coaches in NCAA division 1 football. Notre Dame's new head coach Ty Willingham is black, and his hiring brought this disparity to the medias attention, and now some people are getting up in arms and planning on "forcing" the NCAA and NFL to force teams to hire black coaches. Would this gain anything? Willingham went 7-0 to open his first season I would bet that this has more to do with future blacks being hired then anything.

For any Minority to be accepted in sports it is necessary for someone in the Majority accepting the minority and giving him the chance. But then that minority has to prove himself or herself. The sad thing is that the minority probably has to prove himself as better than the majority(The greatest human flaw is our inability to accept difference).

We have no idea what would happen if a football player came out when he was playing. I'm sure some people would have a problem with it, homophobia run rampant in our society, it's a sad fact though it's becoming a lot better. However, I would also guess that the majority of players wouldn't care as long as he played hard and produced. But the scary thing is, is that if this player came out, and really wasn't that good, and found himself cut a month after coming out imagine the controversy. People would be picketing NFL games for "discriminating against Gays". Even if this isn't the case, they would be “discriminating” against poor athletes.

Okay so I have a bunch of unconnected thoughts sprawled through this post but I guess my point was going to be that if gays are going to participate in the Olympics they have to go about it the same as any other athlete. If a gay athlete proved himself or herself, capable of competing and winning then they are going to be able to compete. Sure it’s going to create controversy, anything regarding change in minority status usually does. However, if the athlete proves that they are able to compete as well as any straight athlete they are going to be accepted by the mainstream in the end.

Discrimination either way is not only disgusting, but foolish, being persecuted inteh past does not justify doing it yourself in the future, it only makes it deeply hypocritical.

There is an extremely funny french movie about a guy that is about to be fired, so he pretends he's gay so if they fire him they'll be up for discrimination, very good. Completely forgotten the name, damn.

Maybe things are different in Australia, but in America, if you're openly gay, you can expect to be harrassed about it every single day. There's so much hatred and dest for homosexuals here that most gays just prefer to keep quiet about it.

It all depends on where. I've known plenty of gay people who aren't harrassed about it every day. I'm sure "queer folk" have an easy time in places like San Francisco, too. Sure, in Arkan-fuck-your-sister-sas, the homophobic mentality reigns supreme. But it's not like that all over the country.

My point was that white basketball players are not being discriminated against. There just are not that many great ones out there. I think the last great white basketball player to play in the NBA was Larry Bird, or I guess you could say John Stockton. Both of those players are great though not becuase they are more physically gifted then others(in the NBA) but becuase they worked hard. So it isn't discrimination it's just letting those who have the skills get the job.

Hockey is a sport where the opposite is happening. There are very few black hockey players, and those that do play usually find themselves met with scorn. It's a sad reality, but becuase no black hockey player has come in and dominated, it makes it more difficult for the average one to make it to the NHL.

Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you? DISCRIMINATION!

This one comes back to haunt Jaggie, I guarantee. :-)

Then I suggest you suck it up and take your own advice when queer folks decide to have their own events. Get over it.

cam someone above me I forget you cited that example, I don't know anything about it I just assumed it had some basis.

I guess the kind of persecution is based on where you live, these are global gay games, not the Sydney gay games. Rural Australia is no better than deep south US, with an even more intolerable accent. Anyone that screams minority! Victim! Poor little I etc tend to piss me off. The madi gras in sydney and the Chinese community here has a history of doing it, it pisses everyone off, including members of both groups. On the other hand I think the Madi Gras is a truly sweet event, I'm hopefuly going next year with a few friends next year actually, the gay games on the other hand just seems silly. I mean the masters games/grey games is for people that otherwise wouldn't have a venue for competition, the gay games seems more about a statement that gays are somehow unique and different and therefore cannot compete in the ordinary Olympic games. Well gee sorry maggie, last I checked we were discussing it. Sure its none of my damn business, sure as hell doesn't stop me holding an opinion.

You're missing the point of the Gay Games. Screaming "victim" would be *not* having the Gay Games. Straight people utterly control mainstream culture. Having events like this establishes (on a temporary, limited basis) an alternate space where the norms are different, where you can be gay and be out and have it not be an issue.

It's not that "gay people can't compete in the Olympics"; as was already pointed out they can and do. But when they do, if they don't closet themselves, they're asking for all kinds of trouble; they must carefully keep their gayness hidden. Which is why you'd even ask a silly question like "why can't gays compete in the normal Olympics?". (As opposed to the *abnormal* Olympics, right? :-) )

Your advice was "get the fuck over it". Well, this is *how* we "get the fuck over it". Go to the website (since you're unlikely to go to the Games) and check out the social activities; imagine what it muct be like to be there. That creeping sense of alienation you're feeling about it (go on, deny it) is a *tiny* sample of what queer folks feel in mainstream culture 24/7. Is it any wonder that they make their own spaces where the tables are turned?

And they instant they do, they're criticised for "factionalism". What a joke.

I think the Gay Games disappoint me because it's a reminder that homosexuals don't feel comfortable being themselves in society. Many don't feel able to just "be gay". As I've said before, it really doesn't bother me at all - I just wasn't raised to believe that it was wrong or right or anything.

And it's sad seeing places like the Westboro Baptist Church breeding hate in people - especially children. They're making the problem worse. They are the same as any other far-right bunch of lunatics - they want to keep America "uniform", without blacks or hispanics or gays or Jews. One of the defining characteristics of the United States is that we are of all races. We're the melting pot of the world. And it's beautiful and good that way.

So is it really the Games that disppoint you?

Or is it the society?

missed your coment Nic, don't know about where you live but its not going to be privately tollerated here either, you're misinterpreting what I said either way.

I'm yet to see any evidence of this. As for your normal olympics comment, what woulld you prefer i call it, the striaght olympics? The evil olympics for the repressive majority?

As for dave's post i think its just the gay games remind him about society, thats always depressing. As for alientation maggie, not there, sorry. My closest 3 freinds are all bi and I've got plenty of gay and lesbian friends, while ill avoid the gay bars purely becase it pisses people off lots of the parties etc i go gay/mixed, it just doesn't phase me in the slightest, generally it tends to be more fun coz the music's better. I guess its becase i live where i do and mix with the people that i do that i don't really notice much of the discrimination, in public here its the abusers of gay couples that cop the dirty looks.

Dave is saying that it's society that makes him sad, and I'm agreeing with him.

I'm recalling the way I felt, and I think the way USians felt, the weeks following 9/11. As much as I don't bring it up, it was an odd feeling at times that all of a sudden we weren't all different groups any longer, but that all of a sudden everything that everyone felt brought us completely together. We weren't straights and gays, whites and blacks and asians and puerto ricans, poor rich or middle class, etc. We were just americans trying to figure out what happens next.

Depending on how jaded you were, it took between a week and a year for that to feeling to subside to the point where you could safely feel disdain for your fellow man.

But for a while there was no need for any gay games or segregated parades or anything else. Wouldn't it be cool if it didn't take a national emergency with deaths and destruction, to feel like post-9/11 all the time?

"The straight Olympics" works for me. They're not evil, but they're not a reason to not have the Gay Games.
Really? Seems to me your disparagement of the games is driven by that very alienation.

If you truly do live in such a totally liberated utopian space that there's no reason to have Gay Games, then good on you. But I don't think you'd have to travel very far before you'd be outside such friendly spaces. We're also within spitting distance of the old "some of my best friends..." canard again...maybe you'd have to have been around in the 1960's to know how hollow that sounds to those of us who were around then.

The world I live in is *vastly* more gay-friendly than it was even twenty years ago. But my glasses aren't rose-colored enough for me to pretend that this is a world that's safe for queers; it isn't, and that's the truth. Maybe you should walk a few more miles in queer shoes before you tell me how good everything is.

I do hate gay bar music, though. :-)

why? what do they play?

~james

Well, that's what I thought; but his words didn't exactly say that. I thought I'd comment on it.
There's a lot of truth in that; the threat we felt at that time was monsterous enough that it made a lot of our differences seem small by comparison.

But it didn't take long for that to evaporate for some folks. Two days after the attack, Falwell and Robertson were on TV blaming gays and lesbians (among other despised groups such as pagans) for it, saying: 'I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen".'

Idiotarians of the Right, indeed.

Four weeks after 9/11 the AP ran a picture worldwide of a sailor loading a Taliban-targeted bomb bearing the graffiti legend, "High Jack This, Fags." Pretty ironic considering the Taliban punished homosexuals by sharia law: lining them up against a stone wall and then pushing it over on them.

Around here it's non-stop dance mix at what seems like 100 dBA; totally destructive of any ability to socialize. When I want to bathe in sound I'll go to a rock concert. But then I'm a notorious old fart.

Never been to a gay bar, been to a gay nightclub, that was pretty good (friends first time wanted me to come with him, first time a guy tried to pick me up, odd experience. Sets just seem to be better, this is techo we're talking about keep that in mind. I guess events that attaract diverse audiances tend to have better music. Some of the big ones held down at the warves like hardware were just fantastic, pity they shut that down, now the best events are ones like earthcose held out in forrests, great fun and attract a really good mix of people. Maggie most decent events ahve chillout areas where you can chat/socialise etc, they're called raves/dance parties for a reason. 100db is tame too ;)


UT you reminded me of this fantastic song by Tom Lehrer, absolute legend that guy.

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

...

I was trying to point out, in a humorous way, that you misspelled publicly as pubicly, which is especially funny when we're discussing toleration of gay sexuality.

It may be coincidental that I live in Toronto, Canada, which is known for being the most gay friendly city in North America after San Francisco.

We're less tolerant of those who can't spell tolerated. ;)

I'm not doing well today

Originally posted by jaguar

As for your normal olympics comment, what woulld you prefer i call it, the striaght olympics? The evil olympics for the repressive majority?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The straight Olympics" works for me. They're not evil, but they're not a reason to not have the Gay Games.

_____________

But gay people aren't barred from the Olympics so I don't think "straight Olympics" works either.

Re: Re: Hmm
 

Hold the mayo.

I have but one question. Do they separate between men's and women's events? If so, how?

Good point. Last I heard, they did have separate men's and women's events (at least for sports where that's traditional). There was indeed a huge controversy at one point over transsexual women entering as women.

As far as I know they didn't get to the point of genetic testing like in the straight Olympics. As I recall, the final resolution of the issue was based on a judgement call by medical personel who were to take into into account stuff like sex-reassignment surgery and hormonal therapy. Goodness knows *I* don't have the upper body strength I used to. I've even lost about an inch of height, although my skeletal frame is otherwise pretty much what it was pretransition.

I doubt that the figure skater whose image started the thread would be permitted to compete as a woman.

Maybe they could use a weighted average. They would have to assign each competitor something like a male/female ratio score. Your score or time in each event would be adjusted based on that ratio (kind of like a degree of difficulty adjustment in diving).

I guess that would just be one more thing to argue about. "I got screwed, they said I'm still 45% male, when I'm sure I'm no more than 30%." Or something like that.

I have a better idea - why don't we just drop the male/female distiction, just like we are supposed to do in most workplaces, in writing (so you see the artificial (s)he). Let the men and women, straight or gay, black or white (or green with purple polkadots), all compete - and let the best person win!

And where would that put Tonya Harding? On one hand she's got that biker chick toughness, on the other hand she appears to be enthusiastically hetero. As a matter of fact, considering the fact that she is an Olympic athlete and a little on the tough side, I think I would place her in the on my just now formed

"Top 10 Women it Would Be Dangerous to Literally 'Screw With' (But might be worth it)" list.

Candidates would be those who from non-B&D sexual activity, would be most likely to place their partners in the emergency room (or morgue).

That could be a hot thread, if you'd care to start one!