Burn A Koran Day
 

This is really bugging me. I don't generally get too upset about political stuff--I keep up, I listen, I have opinions but don't usually find it worthwhile to bother expressing them. Yeah, I'm a wimp. But this one hit a nerve.

First off, I just flat-out on general principle think that burning books is seriously retarded. But that's just the literature-lover in me, I guess.

On a sentimental, nostalgic note, this reminds me of the Waltons episode in which the townsfolk got together to burn a bunch of books printed in German. John-Boy rescued one big book from the eager pastor's hands (John Ritter!) only to find that, to everyone's shock, it was the Bible! Lesson: if you destroy something an enemy holds dear, you risk destroying something you also might treasure. Or something like that.

See, in the old days, when they burned books they did it right--they gathered up copies from personal libraries. But in some backwater redneck town, who's gonna have a copy of the Koran? How are they going to GET enough of these books to have a respectable conflagration? Order a couple cases from Amazon? Does this not seem a bit illogical?

Support your Koran publisher! Special book-burning packages available, just ask for our Crazy Christian discount.

My oh, so conservative hubby says he's in favor of it. Says we're teaching them a lesson. We won't stand for this Islam invasion. After all, he says, they do it to us. And worse.

But, I said, can't we be . . . I dunno, better than that?

Screw that, he says. After we send all kinds of aid to their people in times of need, they still think we're the enemy.

Well yeah, but we're doing what is right. Helping.

I wanted to say: I'd rather die doing what is right than live knowing I'd done something ethically wrong to protect myself. But I'm nowhere near that good. I'm certainly no Mother Theresa.

But you know, that's not really the point. The point is, if you're gonna have a protest, do it right. Don't support your enemies in the process.

Burning a Koran won't serve anything aside from making Saudi Arabia richer with all these nice books we'll have to purchase to build this nice little "autodafé".

They don't want help... Stop sending it.

You're absolutely right on every count, Juniper. :thumb:

*Self Sensored*

Aw let it out, otherwise you'll get heartburn and ulcers. :haha:

To me, it just shows how silly religion is.
I hate you because your magic book is different than my magic book.
So I'ma gonna burn it. Serves you right.

Ridiculous.

And I wish that the Muslims could realise that burning things means nothing.
And Christians could get over it too.
It's like the practice of burning or hanging people in effigy.
If your religion really is the one true faith, then burning a bit of writing means nothing. If you are a country with great power and weaponry, burning a flag means nothing.

Anti-Christian is not anti-American. Otherwise I'm anti-American, being an atheist.
Pro-Islam is not pro-terrorist - I live with churchgoing Catholics but I don't support paedophiles or the "real" IRA (or whoever the murderers were who left a pipe bomb in a school playground in Co Antrim THIS WEEK)

I honestly don't care what some chap said 2,000 years ago.
And to be frank, neither do many of the people doing the killing, maiming and shooting.
Give it up, let it go, and try to live by the stated ideals of the men you purport to follow.

I am completely against this event. It goes against most of what we think and believe.

But on the other hand, I am also against the KKK and NeoNazi's, the hate of Louis Farrakhan, and the support of NAMBLA members by the ACLU. And they all get to do what they want under the guise of Constitutional protections, so why should these idiots be treated any differently?

The best thing we could do as a country is prevent the press or anyone from showing up, no pictures, no front page reports on the NYT, and let them do what ever the hell they want. Just don't give them any press over it. The press is going to inflame this event by the coverage they give it. Just like any terrorist, give them the stage and they achieve their means. Take away the stage and no one can hear their BS.

:2cents:

He's trying to prove the hornet's nest is dangerous by whacking it with a stick. I'd call him an idiot, but I think he knows exactly what he is doing, which makes him evil.

But I stand by his right to freedom of speech, and I'm not going to prevent him from burning anything he owns. The asshole.

I'm not a book-burner at heart, but I do believe in equal opportunities and freedom of religion, so I'm thinking the authorities might want to intervene and make sure the religous book-burning is open to people of all faiths. I might show up and toss a few bibles on myself, just to balance out the pot as it were..... and perhaps a copy of "Oh Yuck". That's my kids' guidebook to life, apparently. I thought you were supposed to burn stuff you liked to appease deities anyway?

Do you think the Koran Burner(s) has actually read the Koran? If not, what do we all think about people who dismiss things without actually knowing about them? Judging a book by it's cover, as it were.....? Shallow, vain? Isn't vanity one of the Sins?

Koran, shit, you reckon he actually read the Bible?

I think I'm with Glatt. Free speech is an important thing, even if some dick has too be a total dick about it. Best thing is to ignore them, but it is too late for that, so a widespread public condemnation of the act is the next best thing.

:thumb:

Bold for emphasis.

It amazes me the stupidity of the press to cover this piss-ant (sp?) preacher and his church with 50 friggin people. Why the hell are they giving him the world stage. Who benefits? The nutters on one side get all worked up and carry signs and the nutters on the other just use it to convince more people to join their cause ... leading to more killing and fighting and and and. WTF?

I totally agree. Mostly i'm just going to ignore it. But yes, this sort of behaviour is darn irritating. Like cyclists who demand road rights and then sail through red lights.

I'm with Monster. Imma gonna burn a bible.

What needs to happen is that moderate Christians need to denounce the event as distinctly un-Christian.

That is after all what a lot of people asked the Muslims to do.

And it's easy, I mean, I could do it directly from the teachings of Christ, and I'm an anti-theist.

Burn a Koran....vandalize Mosques across the country.....denounce Islam as a cult...publish/promote nonsense of a coming Caliphate that is dangerous to America.....hold Muslim's right to free expression of their religion to a higher standard than others as a result of fear promulgated by haters.

Small degrees of separation that feed off of each other.

Hate is hate.

I'm chickening out of the clone thread: Burn a Korean Day :bolt:

It seems to me that symbolism is a big thing for Americans and those in certain parts of the Middle East – or perhaps it’s really just with religious folk.

You may, or may not find this relevant (and tedious).

Back in the late eighties or thereabouts, early days for what we now call ‘reality TV’, they ran a short series of programmes over here filmed in a small Spanish hotel. Tourists from four countries – England, Germany, the US and (I think) France stayed in the place for free on consecutive weeks understanding that they would be filmed. The guests didn’t know much about the show or that there were stooges in residence too – the idea being to see how the different nationalities would react to different situations. Meals would be served late, the bus driver taking them to an outing would be drunk, one of the stooges would steal drinks from the bar (the English helped him, the Germans tried to stop him and reported him immediately when he wouldn't) – that sort of thing.

Anyway, on their respective last days the groups returned to the hotel from an outing to find a large national flag that had hung in the dining room for the duration of their visit had been partly burned. No-one cared much, in fact if I recall correctly the Germans found it funny. Not so with the Americans though – there was anger and something approaching violence to the hotel staff. With the show over the participants were told that all the incidents, including the flag burning, had been faked for the show, and they all showed the expected amusement – but not, as you guess, the Americans. They were fine with everything else but not the flag, women were in tears, one of them insisting she be allowed to take it home to American soil for burial. Some of the production crew took refuge behind their equipment after someone from the team suggested that it was ‘just a piece of cloth’.

My point? Oh, you think I have one?

Well, I suppose it’s only that just because you find something important doesn’t mean everyone else does and if you do find some kind of symbol important to you be aware that others might have their own. Flags and Bibles and Korans don’t mean much to me but while I might be happy to toss one in a bin or burn it while clearing out I certainly wouldn’t do it in attempt to upset or antagonise others.

You forgot a few - flying planes into the buildings, murder, bombing, kidnapping, rape, stoning, terrorism...
yup.

That is exactly the point.

When you make that connection, by blaming a religion for the actions of those few (among 1+ billion) who debase the religion for their own political/ideological purposes, you feed into the hate that creates backlash.

And by promoting that ignorance and blaming the religion , you becomes part of the problem and not the solution.

IF you feel so strongly about blaming Islam for flying planes into the buildings, murder, bombing, kidnapping, rape, stoning, terrorism..why not blame Christianity for the extreme Christian Identity movement that relies on the novel The Turner Diaries for their mantra to exterminate Jews and non-whites in America and overthrown the government by force.

Or blame Christianity for Scott Turner acting on his Christian beliefs by murdering an abortion doctor in cold blood in Church.

Repeat...when you promote ignorance (Islam is a terrorist religion), you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

It's journalism. They post stories that will rouse emotion so people will keep reading their newspaper or watch their TV show. It obviously has worked, haha.

But just have a counter protest like the many against the Phelps family. Just burn something completely ridiculous next door and no one will cover the Quran book burning.

I pointed no finger at anyone - just listed a few more examples of things done as a "result of fear promulgated by haters" to add to your list.

I'll make the argument that his speech is not protected speech under the first amendment as it is tantamount to "inciting to riot" and "hate speech" neither of which is protected. While he is not literally inciting people to riot, his actions are dangerously close to that.

He is an asshole.

I'm somehow very proud of all the above comments by Dwellars

This AM on TV one of the reporters said the preacher was being pressured to cancel and was saying they would go ahead with the "event". The reporter then said the preacher had left some wiggle room by saying that he would cancel if "his God spoke to him"

What would he do if it was Allah that spoke ?

You made that connection, not I.
You are the problem when you twist what others say, misconstrue their meaning and create tangents that didn't exist.

I did not, nor do I blame Islam, just the extremists. Whatever their race, religion or ideology does not matter. It is you who continue to create this false argument that others are blaming islam, not I.
You are so extreme in YOUR views that you continue to perpetuate this completely incorrect argument.

fixed that for you ;)

Lamplighter's question reminds me of the story about Nasruddin traveling with a Jew and a Christian. They are hungry and have no food and come to an oasis where they see a chocolate cake cut into 4 pieces, so they each eat a piece of cake, leaving one. After a while they fall into debate about who should have the last piece. Eventually they agree to sleep on it and whoever has the most spiritual dream should be rewarded with the cake.

The next morning they awake and share their dreams. The Jew tells how Moses came to him, walking through the parted Red Sea, bearing the tablets, surrounded by burning bushes, telling him that he was most deserving of the cake. The others agreed that his dream was full of very spiritual imagery, but then the Christian went on to describe and equally elaborate, significant dream with angels and seraphim bearing gold, frankincense, myrhh, and chocolate cake. And again, they all agreed it was na exceptionally spiritual dream. They asked Nasruddin about his dream and he said, "I dreamed Allah told me to wake up and eat the cake, so I did."

Something they have generally failed to do in a big way.

Complete straw man argument. Stop trying to compare the recent violence of a limited number of extremist in this country to the immediate death of over 2800 people on 9/11.

I really don't trust the guy. He basically has a congregation of 50 people and now has the whole world looking at him for his greatest 15 min of fame, all fueled by the press coverage.

Same old bullshit from you too, dude.

The issue for me is bigger than some bigoted minister. It is the growing backlash against Muslims in America....from this preacher, from Beck and Limbaugh, from Chirstohpher Hitchins and from innuendos like yours.

And that backlash is fueled by ignorant associations of the actions of few with an entire religion.

Thats my opinion an d i dont give a fuck if you like it not.

How cool would it be if the "reverend" was struck by lightening today?

or better yet - fell into his own fire ... Now THAT would be symbolic!

this

First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Burning the Koran seems a little inflammatory, doesn't it?

Groooaaaan:D

I was just surprised that nobody else said it.

We were hoping that leaving it to you might put a lil fire under your ass to get back here and posting.

Vacation was rough. I had wifi everyplace I went, only tried to turn on the computer once, and that was in the one with the crappy signal that never managed to connect.

Looks like all aspects of one side" have no problem with public condemnations of stupidity or outrageous behavior, why not the other?

I've always been a member of the "catch more flies with sugar" camp. As a Christian, I am very much anti-evangelistic. If I should ever manage to sway anyone to join my religion, it shall be because they see how happy I am and how I choose to live my life and think, hm, I might want that for myself. Tell me how you got there.

So, here's a somewhat-related news item:

A Muslim teenager from Ohio says her father threatened to kill her because she converted to Christianity.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-03/j...im?_s=PM:CRIME

Now, I'm not saying it's right or wrong to attempt to sway anyone away from Islam--just that IF you were wanting to do that, would burning their holy book be a good way to start?

But why, you might ask, would I point that out? Is that indeed the goal of this Dove-hick-backwater-crazy-Christian church?

Yes. At least it says so on the church's Web site:
God loves you so much.. you can escape Islam and be free!
http://www.doveworld.org/shelter

Just some more facts about this man (according to the German news channels):

He has lived and started his cult (or whatever you want to call it) in Cologne/Germany. He stated that this town was the gate of hell, because (1) the mother of the Roman emperor Nero had founded the city and (2) because Karl Marx had lived there for a while. He said he founded and ran his group to watch over this gate of hell.

Also, a German court has found him guilty for assuming an academic title (Dr.), that he had not acquired.

Which man Scriveyn?

The pastor who intends to stage the Koran burning

That's just insane.

Doesn't he know that the hellmouth was located in Sunnydale, CA and that Buffy closed it already?

First, Good on Juniper for starting this thread.

I feel the majority of Dwellar views here represent the best side of people,
as also shown in this NY Times article

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/us...html?th&emc=th

In Florida, Many Lay Plans to Counter a Pastor’s Message
By DAMIEN CAVE
Published: September 7, 2010

In the UK we have a 'Burn a Catholic' night every 5th November.

:facepalm:

My point is that moderate muslims have failed to speak up about the years of violence. I am not a fan of polls but some of the ones taken after the bus bombings in the UK were quite interesting. In this country I see a huge outcry against this idiot from many Christian groups, his own kind.

I've heard them speak out several times.

I have to respond. 'Moderate muslims' continually speak out. Perhaps you're not listening or maybe you need to change your news sources.

Wow. You flashed on that too? I don't remember much of the Waltons, but that same thing came to my mind when I heard this.

What's funny is that there are so few conservative voices arguing against this even thought Gen. Petraeus has said it would be a bad idea. What happened to all those conservatiuve voices who warn 'this will hurt the troops' in response to any criticism of the war? Well, the commander of the whole f**cking war just told you what will hurt the troops and all I hear is.....silence.

maybe you need to change your news sources.

That was unfair - there are too many who are not looking at it that way. You're right.

If I wanted to really piss off the muslims, I'd just have lots of sex with lots of people.

Far more fun and much less hassle.


...did some more research......

OK, now I get why Americans Christians hate Muslims so much:

They're fucken socialists! Reds under the beds!

That's one of the reasons they hate the Jews so much, because they're the ones who invented monetary interest.

Not in a response commensurate with the level of violence over the last 9 years in all the countries we have been involved in. The sitting governments have responded, where there is one, but that is not the same. There is no hue and outcry from the Imam's from countries like Indonesia (where the majority of muslims reside), from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan, Bangledesh, Nigeria, Sudan, Algeria, etc, where are they. It has not and is not happening. To say there is a backlash and outcry against the violence that a minority of extremists have hijacked the religion is disingenuous at the least and borders on kool aid drinking progressive BS at the other end of the spectrum.

True. It that one case. One time. In 2004. Nothing but silence since. And that is good, because that is a from a "moderate" group, formed to moderate some of the discussion, and PR their point of view. All good.

They also went on to state in the article:
And there in lies the rub, the problem is not so much in this country where Muslims, generally have had a pretty good go of it till now, the problem is in the rest of the world where the majority live. Some 48 countries are muslim dominated. Hardly a peep in proportion to the level of violence.