Israeli naval commandos stormed a flotilla of ships
 

I think the shit has just hit the fan.

Right now, estimations run from 10 to 20 killed and many wounded.

You might hear references to the Altalena Affair in this discussion. This was an altercation between Jewish insurgents and the Jewish army before Israel independence.

Also there is the Karine_A_Affair which was 2002 and involved 30 tons of weapons bound for Palestine.

I'm curious if weapons will be found on board the ships.

Still, it was a stupid move. The loss of support will probably outweigh the short term tactical advantage even if weapons are found. Taking the ship in international waters could be construed to be an act of piracy. If Israel wanted to create a blockade, they should have declared one and intercepted the ship along their coast.

Botched to say the least: sending soldiers with paintball guns into an angry mob, as an opening move.

As I said in another thread, politicians react, they don't act.

I'm beginnig to think that to get elected, you have to be as empty headed as a blonde.

And comparing a politician to a blonde might be construed as an insult for blondes.

I wonder if they were in international waters or waters where they claim they are territorial, most countries have a difference and even those boundries are disputed by adversaries.

Everything I've seen says international. Bad move on a number of levels - IMO.

If they have found supposed ships in the past that were suppose to carrying "humanitarian aid" and was found to be full of weapons I think I would stop every ship too.

Thats your choice, but don't do it in international waters.

OH and I just read something about this group that has been found to be less than a charitable organization repeatedly in the past.

According to the BBC: "The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought."

Israel complains its soldiers were attacked, but what kind of welcome were they expecting exactly? Lei's and a BBQ?

Reminded me of this Time article about the Arctic Sea hijacking.

No weapons - kids toys, and medical equipment so far.

They went looking for a confrontation. They got one.

Biased, but worth looking into:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...897667,00.html

I also saw in the jpost that there were some "other things" found while searching. Again, I haven't seen it anywhere else so I'm not posting it. I'm waiting to see what happens.

I would like salsa with my tortillas.

BTW, NPR just did a great exam of the legality of the issue. It should be available Thurs on line.

Anyone placing blame for the need for the flotilla in the first place. Wouldn't be because Egypt shut down the tunnels that were smuggling weapons into Gaza, could it? These people have been acting stupid for years, and when they finally get cut off because they would rather have weapons than food, the world is supposed to be outraged. I'll trust the Israelis any time.

Hoplophobe?

There are no clear good guys in this.

Of course there are. Who just depends on which sides your looking from.

I agree. There is much to be considered here.

Do we believe Israel or support Iran?

Do we support the cause of a Two State Solution or not?

My own opinion on the subject is that :

1) That flotilla was clearly a provocation.
2) The Israeli's reaction was clearly over the board.

One possibility would have been to get the boats in a controlled zone, unload them, check every thing under control from UNO soldiers (there are some in israel) and check each person wanting to get on shore again under some external control.

Another would be to Nuke the whole zone and render the place unusable from Turkey to Afghnistan down to Sudan including Saudi Arabia and Israel.

End of the contention over the place and who has the right to be there. End of the problem.

Not sure... A bit extreme... Perhaps...

Just a bit, Gunny.

Sometimes, I wonder if a species as bellicose as the human race shouldn't be totally wiped out...

It'll happen. And the Earth will abide.

An Assault, Cloaked in Peace, points out Michael Oren, Israeli ambassador the the US:

Nevertheless, and previous to any further investigation,

Turkey will "never forgive" Israel, says Turkish President Abdullah Gul

Israel should say "Fuck Abdullah Gul."

Only the Dude Abides...

Gaza blockade: Iran offers escort to next aid convoy
more

I wonder if this is the diversion that Clinton was talking about over the weekend.

They should blow any Iranian ship out of the water.

Oh consarn it -- missed this thread looking for a place to post this: A Favorite Columnist

Just because you blow any Iranian doesn't mean the Israelis should.

Nice job... ;)

Revenge

At times ... I wish
I could meet in a duel
the man who killed my father
and razed our home,
expelling me
into
a narrow country.

And if he killed me,
I’d rest at last,
and if I were ready—
I would take my revenge!

*

But if it came to light,
when my rival appeared,
that he had a mother
waiting for him,
or a father who’d put
his right hand over
the heart’s place in his chest
whenever his son was late
even by just a quarter-hour
for a meeting they’d set—
then I would not kill him,
even if I could.

*

Likewise ... I
would not murder him
if it were soon made clear
that he had a brother or sisters
who loved him and constantly longed to see him.
Or if he had a wife to greet him
and children who
couldn’t bear his absence
and whom his gifts would thrill.
Or if he had
friends or companions,
neighbors he knew
or allies from prison
or a hospital room,
or classmates from his school...
asking about him
and sending him regards.

*

But if he turned
out to be on his own—
cut off like a branch from a tree—
without a mother or father,
with neither a brother nor sister,
wifeless, without a child,
and without kin or neighbors or friends,
colleagues or companions,
then I’d add not a thing to his pain
within that aloneness—
not the torment of death,
and not the sorrow of passing away.
Instead I’d be content
to ignore him when I passed him by
on the street—as I
convinced myself
that paying him no attention
in itself was a kind of revenge.

Nazareth
April 15, 2006

Taha Muhammad Ali

Outstanding Griff. Thank you very much.

What Hamas did during the flotilla outrage

Get elected, ban elections.

Stop that now UT!

They are just, just, just, peace makers.... not

Griff,
That is beautiful. It reminds me of this by Thich Nhat Hanh

Call Me by My True Names

Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow
because even today I still arrive.

Look deeply: I arrive in every second
to be a bud on a spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
in order to fear and to hope.
The rhythm of my heart is the birth and
death of all that are alive.

I am the mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river,
and I am the bird which, when spring comes, arrives in time
to eat the mayfly.

I am the frog swimming happily in the clear pond,
and I am also the grass-snake who, approaching in silence,
feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to
Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea
pirate,
and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and
loving.

I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my
hands,
and I am the man who has to pay his "debt of blood" to, my
people,
dying slowly in a forced labor camp.

My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all
walks of life.
My pain if like a river of tears, so full it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up,
and so the door of my heart can be left open,
the door of compassion.

Thich Nhat Hanh

Brilliant SN.

Wow, just wow. Thats excellent.

The Gazans can show their fondness for peace and tranquility by summarily hanging and shooting all the Hamas in town, without exception. Perhaps an Ishmael or two might be able to outrun the peace activists, to make it back to Iran and tell the mullahs that try didn't work.

Gaza flotilla deaths can be blamed on Obama
Link
Not exactly an unbiased source. Are these people serious?
Is Israel really that much under the US control?
Right down to the weapons their commandos use?
:eyebrow: Color me skeptical.

Israel under US control? I've always thought it was the other way around...

:tinfoil:

Everything is Obama's fault. Except good stuff.

Spexx, has it escaped your notice that Democratic Administrations have not for decades actually seriously attempted to decisively win any wars? They are no less eager, on the record, to get into the shooting than Republican Administrations, but the record says that somehow they never believe in actually winning in such clashes. They're not in it to win.

The Republicans, by contrast, think it is a virtue for the forces of democracy to win wars, especially with antidemocratic forces. And antidemocrats are the only foes we've shot at since 1898. Look it up if you don't want to just believe me. I already understand this and why shouldn't you?

(And the Libertarians potentially could think this way, and still, I think, be Libertarians. They don't -- yet.)

The last Democratic President to win a war was Truman. The last Dem President to attempt it was Johnson. For God's sake, even that was two generations ago.

Cool. When do we start "winning" in the middle east? I thought the mission was accomplished but we just seem to be wallowing in mediocrity instead of actually winning anything. There's no money in the cure.

The Bosnian war....with a combination of military force and forceful diplomacy (Dayton accord)....and only one US casualty.

It's not fucking worth it with UG, Redux. I made exactly the same point to him in exactly the same context: here and here. He did not pay attention. He is write-only.

Maybe if we say it louder.

HEY! URBANE GUERILLA!

BILL CLINTON WON THE GODDAMN BOSNIAN WAR!!!!

Just giving him a third strike to swing at.

I'll go back to my coffee now.

Bosnia doesn't count, because we didn't gain any land, or raw materials, for the American empire business interests.

Sorry about my late edits. My posts are first drafts for the first five minutes...

Rinse and repeat as necessary.

:rolleyes:

We should have ignored Bosnia completely. It was in the European backyard, they should have delt with it completely.

You wouldn't make that statement if it hadn't been

Bill Clinton

who stopped a genocide of ethnic cleansing including systematic mass rape and torture when he

won the war

HA! I, for one, am loving UT's new posting style.

Fixed that for ya.

:)

Good one!