My check engine light is on
 

and the car (2001 Honda Civic/54,000 miles) is intermittently sputtering or jolting. I took it to the dealer, because I had to replace the airbag, and they told me this:

Engine code P1519. They recommended that I update the computer, which they did, and I drove it off. They also said that if the problem reoccured, I would have to replace the PCM (computer); to the tune of about $1,000.

Well, guess what? It reoccurred. The next morning I drove it about 10 miles. At first the the light came on and the sputtering occured. Then the light went off and it was fine. Arrgggh! I hate intermittent shit and also electrical problems!

I shouldn't have to replace the computer at less than 55,000 miles, should I? Do I have any other options?

Put a piece of black electrical tape over the "check engine" light. It will eventually burn out on its own.

At what point does he read the manual? DTC 1519 reports a Idle Air Control Valve Circuit Failure. How curious. That is also what your sputtering engine is doing. If the valve is stuck open, then too much air is leaking into the intake.

The valve is controlled by coolant. A cold engine must run faster. When the engine gets warm, then the valve must close so that the engine idles at a slower speed.

So what did he do? Updating a computer is equivalent to the computer tech who constantly updates the BIOS. He does it because it is easy, does not require thinking through a problem, and actually does nothing. It is called shotgunning. Just keep replacing things until something works. Replace the easy things so that thinking need not be done.

Intermittently sputtering especially at the point which coolant finally obtains maximum hot explains a periodically stuck Idle Air Control Valve would cause. How curious. The computer also identifies a failed Idle Control Valve. Located where the throttle cable connects to a pipe from air cleaner. The Control valve is just after the throttle plate - where the throttle cable connects to and rotates that plate. Easy to access. Easy to test.

Does the mechanic know the problem is intermittent? A symptom that is important. Does it happen just as the car is getting to full hot coolant temperature? When it happens further defines the suspect.

When you take your computer to a repair shop, does he automatically replace the power supply and blame it on no surge protector? He is just replacing parts in a desperate hope that the problem will be solved or disappear. It is also called shotgunning.

BTW is your coolant level full? Did you recently have the anti-freeze flushed (which must be done every two years or else the glycol eats engine parts). Low coolant and the resulting air bubble that rises to the back of the engine can also cause this problem.

A replacement control valve is maybe $250. Checking the coolant level? Priceless - near zero dollars.

Airliners crash more often than a PCM fail. Most PCM failures (from companies that were letting the engineers design them which GM was not) are mechanics doing shotgunning because electricity is just too confusing.

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I had the coolant flushed several months ago; and yes, it seems to sputter right when the engine starts to warm up.

I hate, hate, hate car problems!

I was told once that a change in fuel or even if the fuel door is open even a slight bit the check engine light will come on. I remember I had changed fuel and opened and shut the door on the gas cap and made sure the gas cap was snug. The light went out.

It's probably not your car's problem but it's something to put away for reference. I guess.

With computers and electronics, solving car problems has become significantly easier. Easier when one learns proper diagnostic techniques. Much more difficult if one still shotguns.

Hondas have a small air release valve on engine (just in front of the throttle pulley that the throttle cable connects to). In every Honda, engine design is so sophisticated that opening this little valve means water (coolant) is at the top of that valve when coolant is exactly at the correct level in the radiator. The idea: fill the radiator until water flows out of that little air release valve. Then no air pockets can form inside an engine block. An air bubble is one possiblity (but normally should not happen).

You can open the radiator cap (when engine is cool) to see yourself if coolant levels are accurate.

Your symptoms all point to a coolant problem related the Idler Control valve. Maybe low coolant (because the mechanic did not know how to change coolant). Or a mechanic did a fast flush (which should never be done because you will have water pump failure about 1 year later). Or maybe a failure created by putting wrong coolant into the car. Maybe an Idler control valve failure that coincided with coolant change.

By following the evidence (based only one what was provided here), nobody should have updated computer software or discussed replacing the computer.

BTW, the Car Guys (the tappet Bros Tom and Ray) discuss this constantly with routine laughing. That check engine light always reports problems accurately. Mechanics and others who remain in denial are a serious problem. Mechanics often because they did not do what they are expected and trained to do. Honda routinely sends mechanics to Japan for training and retraining.

In your case, Honda even provides a flow chart for how to find that problem. Nothing in that flow chart says start by blaming the computer. IOW you may want to find a more responsible dealership.

I had the same problem when I could no longer get fuel without ethanol. It ruined the fuel sender in my gas tank also. But on the positive side, I get less miles per gallon with the ethanol blend, and it costs more.:(

That light is telling you to clip the wire and trade it in.

Just a thought.

Be back later - on my way to hell at the moment. :)

Exactly. The dealer I don't think even looked at my valves or drove my car. They just updated the software, and marked my invoice "OK to trade."

WTF? OK to trade? I guess they think if it's not fixable, I just trade it in and get a new one.

Which, I suppose, if it's really not fixable, I'd have to do, but not with them. :(

The Cellar Car's check engine light is on. For a few days the engine was running poorly, like one of the cylinders didn't have full power. Maybe a fuel injector is clogged.

Could be a plug misfiring.

Without the engine code numbers, any answer would be wild speculation.

Some cars require a OBD reader. Others will flash the error code on the dash when a jumper wire to attached to a plug underneath the dash. Montgomery County library often has books for each car model that would describe how to get the "DTC" code.

Without that code, I could think of at least 12 different items that would explain that behavior. The actual list is far longer. First get the DTC number.

I think we discussed this last time? But access to the Cellar Car's OBD jumper is behind a big plastic plate to the right of the accelerator, and unlike every other 1995 Maxima, it's riveted on instead of screwed on. I can't figure out how to get this thing off. It doesn't just pull off.

drill out the rivets and them replace them with screws.

If I had a nickel for every rivet I've drilled out... maybe I could buy a six pack of very good beer. and a pizza. but that's probably it.

I always thought the check engine light meant it was time to write a check for the engine.

metal rivets, or those plastic things you are supposed to really yank on to remove?

It's just a big piece of plastic and where people have pictures of screws there is just plastic.

TW: I appreciate very much you taking the time to respond in full. I will be using some of the suggestions when I take the car in for a second opinion.

Pay no attention to the men behind the curtain!

Only 1996 cars were required to have OBD. The connector must be located within three feet of the driver and must not require any tools to be revealed.

Only later model 1995 cars had it. If the Maxima was built in early 1995, it may not have that connector.

However, most cars had other means of reading code. For example, some had an LED on a computer located under the driver's seat or beneath the front passenger's feet.

Yeah, when I talk about the plastic thingie that blocks my access to the OBD jumper, I'm talking about getting to the super-secret back door access to reading the code.

Here's the post with the picture I took of it

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...ca0001_300.jpg

tack puller avial at home despo/lowes ...those look like throw away clips. they'll have to be replaced after you yank them. look for them at pep boys.

http://www.eurotruck-importers.com/i...9000929051.jpg

http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.p...stant-download

$8.95 to download a repair manual

also, i have a friend that has a code reader if you wanna borrow it.

So, I had another place look at it. They are telling me that it IS the computer, so they are ordering me a re-manufactured one, with the same warranty, at half the cost.

(shakes head and sighs)

a remanufactured PCM?

yes. I was told it had the same warranty, and it is a 9 year old car, after all. Do you not think that's a good idea? My other alternative is to return to the dealer for a new PCM at twice the cost.

Wait, isn't the PCM part of the emissions control system? Any part of that system is under warranty, for 80,000 miles, by federal law.

I just never heard of a re-manufactured computer before.

the emissions warranty is 8 yr or 80K whichever comes first, and only for these components:

Guess that would be pulled out of a junk car and washed off. :haha:

I thought the Powertrain Control Unit (PCU), Powertrain Control Module (PCM) Electronic Control Unit (ECU) and Electronic Control Module (ECM) are different names for the same critter.

whatever you call it, apparently it's very uncommon/rare for it to go bad.

it figures.

OK, reading through the factory manual instructions for troubleshooting the P1519 code, Honda calls the computer the "ECM/PCM".
That means it would be covered under warranty if it were under 8 years/80k miles. Since you're well under on the mileage, it wouldn't hurt to cry on Honda's shoulder, starting with the dealer, and working your way up Honda's chain.

awwww; you looked up the codes for me. Sweet!

My check engine light is now off. After the application of $800+

it better stay off!

The Cellar Car had the nerve, again, to simply stop acting wrong. The Check Engine light is still lit, but the engine is now running normally.

I believe the Cellar Car is self-healing.

mutant transportation!

I had an '81 vw deisel rabbit that had that skill.


i can't remember what the hell happened to that car.....

it might still be out there somewhere .....

Right next to this one?

That is how most all failures normally happen.

For example, a car with about 100,000 miles sometimes would knock during acceleration from idle. Dealer swore they could not repeat the problem. Eventually I isolated the problem to but a few parts, but could not see anything wrong. Well I took out the distributor (the #1 suspect) and disassembled it. Found grease that lubricated the centrifugal and vacuum advance was sticky. Have since learned this going 'sticky' can be a problem with lithium greases in ten years. Sometimes ignition timing would get stuck until heat or extended operation freed the part.

Finding failures means first using logic to minimize a problem to certain suspects. That is what the check engine light does.

For example, what could cause intermittent failure - without that check engine code and other important facts? ERG valve gets intermittently stuck. Fuel pump is slowly failing - pressure too low - so that sometimes the injectors cannot compensate for that low pressure. Filter partially clogged. Intermittent leak in critical vacuum line. Temperature measurement device is intermittent - not always reporting correct temperature. Device that measures air flow is intermittent. Sticky or worn injector. Oxygen sensor reporting incorrect values. Cracked distributor. Electronic load sensor fails. Any connector is corroded causing varying sensor inputs to the computer. Bad spark plug wire. Partial obstruction in the exhaust manifold. Atmospheric pressure sensor failure.

And this is maybe 2% of possible suspects. A list that becomes massively smaller with that diagnostic code or other symptoms. In every case, the part is constantly defective causing intermittent failures. The problem has not gone away. It is simply a classic intermittent.

Based on how it was acting, this is my guess.

With the Cellar car, I thought who ever bought that part is responsible for its upkeep. Let me know if the ashtray is responsible for the problem.

I'm so anal - I went and found the damn thread and looked it up -
Brian got the ashtray
You had the glovebox

Thanks, classic, that's good to know - 85% of these problems are directly attributable to the ashtray.

Bwaaaaaaaaahahahahah

I stand ready and willing to replace the ashtray, if needed. :)

The ashtray is now my phone holder. It does a decent job of it.

Well that's the problem - nobody bought the fuel injectors!

How's my back seat doing?

See, even in a car that's up on concrete blocks, the back-seat can serve a function. You can sleep in it, you can read in it, you can...

It's getting beat up from hauling bass amps!

Good and hearty back seat, then. :)

Goddammit! My check engine light came back on!

and the car is still doing the same sheet (running ragged, engine hesitating)

NOW what do I do?

arrggh!

Take it back, say you want a refund on the new computer system since that obviously wasn't the problem, and tell them to figure out what the problem really is.

Oh...ugh.

Cars can be such a pain in the ass. :(

Go back and read what I posted. Very first thing to do (from that post): take off that cap (as described with the noted precaution) and inspect coolant level.

Meanwhile, yes, they need to discuss your refund.

Who did this analysis? A Honda dealer?

both a Honda dealer and an independent auto shop made the diagnosis. I'm not going to fool around with the engine myself, trust me--bad idea.

Then you also never do anything more dangerous such as put air into tires or fill the car with gas. Viewing a coolant level is about as complicated as filling the wiper fluid and safer than driving.

Otherwise just keep throwing money at it a few $hundreds at a time. It is a job most often given to the shop's temporary kid because it is that trivial and easy. They do not even trust the kid to drive a car. But checking fluid levels - even the kid can do it.

Not even that, I think i remember (full service gas only?)...

eta: http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php...hlight=service

(nods) and why I can't deal well with car shit.

Does your user manual give you any hints?

On my 98 Explorer the check engine light came on and the engine was not doing anything wrong. I drove 100,000 more miles with a smiley face sticker over that check engine light. :p: