Cellar car issue
 

I think it's amusing to put this in Meta.

Need advice.

On Monday afternoon the car wouldn't start. It cranked well, but would not catch. J reminded me that we have an auto plan now, so all I have to do is call them and have them take it to my mechanic. I figured I would have one more go at it that night, but then I forgot.

On Tuesday afternoon I remembered, and I went out to try it. It still cranked well, and coughed a few times as if it was gonna catch. So I kept cranking it, and after about a minute, it started.

I was thinking I'd put it at the curb so that it could be towed easily, because clearly something is up, but then I realized J's daughter was parked behind me, and there was a smell of gas like I flooded it badly, and so I just decided to shut it off and move it out later.

Then I got distracted researching it on the net, and learned that a new starter is like $100 and that it's not too terribly hard to replace it. Then I couldn't be convinced it was the starter... well, Wednesday I went back out and tried to start it again, and damn if it didn't just start right up, BAM, like she has always done.

WTF, now I have to figure out whether to just put it off, or get a starter, or take it to the mechanic and have them do better diagnosis. So I didn't do anything yesterday, but today I had errands to run, and the car started up BAM every time.

Should I just figure that there was some sort of intermittent problem that will never happen again, and if it does I can just crank the car for two minutes until it does start? Should I order a starter and try to replace it myself? (What if I fuck up?) Or should I just take it to a pro? Remember when answering that I still have no available cash at all. Thank you.

When you say "starter" are you talking about the starter motor? Because if it "cranks well" it sounds like the starter motor is just fine.

Or are you talking about the coil?

If it's cranking, it's not the starter. :headshake
Basically, fuel, spark, & timing are the three ingredients.

Yeah, it's not the starter or it wouldn't crank.

Fuel lines gummed up?

Does the distributor cap look OK?

It's either fuel or electricity that's the problem.

Or freezing up, ie water in the fuel.

may have had a clogged fuel pump


put some STP in thar

cap/rotor? If they are fugged up ...

My Saturn had that problem in cold weather. It turned out to be a faulty temperature sensor.

Bet tw's Honda never had that problem.

I don't think it was froze; it was inside the garage, where the temps are always like 10 degrees F higher, and we barely got below freezing this week.

Was it raining there on Monday? Or below freezing? It was warm and sunny in DC, but had rained on Sunday.

Rain could point to electrical problems with the distributor cap and rotor and/or spark plug wires.

Previous recent cold temperatures, coupled with a low level of gas in the tank could mean water condensed in there and messed up the fuel. Is the gas tank almost empty?

Edit: Screw it. I just saw it lives in the garage. I got nothin.

Cap rotor could simply be worn. That can make the starting sporadic or inconsistent. Just remove the top - 2 screws, I believe and take a look at it.
Should look like this:
http://www.mirage-performance.com/te...caprotor08.jpg

The problem is there are so many sensors and interlocks. Like it won't let the engine fire until the fuel pressure is up to a level that will let the calibrated fuel injectors provide a rich enough charge, or the oil pressure is sufficient.

I believe that car should be OBD-1 (On Board Diagnostics -1), so the best thing to do would be to check if any codes were set in the computer.
I don't know how Nissan works but American cars have method of reading the codes without a diagnostic analyzer.

GM, you short out the first two slots in the OBD connector under the dash. Some have a sequence of turning things like the key & brake lights on and off in a particular order. Your owners manual should tell if there is one for your car.

Then you count the flashes of the "check engine" light to get the numbers of the codes that are set, and look up the meaning of the numbers. Most of the information should be online.


edit, BTW, you can't sand the points with a matchbook striker anymore. :haha:

Dagnabbit!!

This page explains how to get to the ECU to check the OBD, but instead of two screws,

http://cellar.org/2010/ecucover.jpg

there appear to be two plastic rivets... no phillips slots in them like the picture suggests and they can't be pried loose after five minutes of trying.

http://cellar.org/2010/rivets.jpg

That doesn't seem right. They use the OBD for state inspection, for god's sake, disassembly isn't practical. You shouldn't have to go to the ECU, there should be a connector easily available to mechanic and inspectors???

Yah there's a connector, but I don't have the tool to read it. This is the back door method for people who don't have the OBD tool.

Oh OK, They don't give you a way to read the codes without a code reader? Pep boys should read the codes out for free, or so I'm told.

Take it to a shop with the proper diagnostic equipment, and let them figger it out it will cost less in the long run. I am a trained mechanic and I know this from experience.

Oh, you're no fun. :lol:

I'll go along with this. Temperature changes are a drag on car start ups. I put a half bottle of heet in my tank about every 3rd fillup during the winter months.

If it does it again... a half gallon of gas over the seats and a stick match will work very well.

No no, It's check insurance policy, a half gallon of gas over the seats, and a stick match. ;)
He said it wasn't cold enough to freeze but still could be water.

Nissan has all the codes the same way. They are a series of short/long flashes with each representing a number - then you can look up the code.
I'd still take a look at the cap - it only takes about 5-10 minutes.

How does Nissan activate the flashing?

Correction - looks like it's an OBD-2, my bad.

Thats looks just like my old car Tony, it is right behind there and there is a slot for a phillips head screwdriver to start the OBD computer. I don't recall it being a difficult thing to access.

Oh wait - are those the plastic push screws holding that panel in? I still have a few of them - never could get them back in.

Maybe the previous owner had trouble getting them back in too, and glued them in.

Two types, one with a center pin that can be pulled with pliers so the button can be pried out, and the second kind that gets destroyed taking them out. Fortunately they are cheap(less than a buck), and most auto parts stores have a selection.

fuel pump? filter? carburetor?

ah I dunno

Did you check your 710 cap?

Oh, good call mon.

Let's just get Tony a new car.

Good idea Cap, got you covered UT ;)

Sounds weather related my cruiser has been "burping" lately. Advanced Auto, Pep Boys and Auto Pro can read your codes for you free.

Just tell them NOT to erase any, in case they're needed later.

Distributor cap is OK.

Must be fuel then. I'm a lazy ass. If it were me, I'd pour some of that STP fuel stuff in there to take care of any water, and I'd make sure to keep the tank pretty full for a while to reduce the chance of condensation.

I wouldn't bother to get anything checked out unless it acted up again.

YMMV

It's running now, right? Don't fool with it. If it plays up again, then maybe get your mech-tech to diagnose it.

Well, all my discretionary charitable money is going to Haiti. If I got Tony a new car, he'd have to pick it up in Port-au-Prince.

If we send him to Haiti, he won't need a car. :haha:

No No No. This one. I don't think you'll need to worry about paying too much insurance, unless your neighbors store armor piercing ammunition.

And since the company is in the U.K., we can send Dana or SG to do the inspection.

How about an update, UT? Wassup?

Absolutely zero problems since that day. Did a treatment of dry gas.

Great! PMA at it's finest.

OK, the Cellar Car is experiencing intermittent rough engine and throwing the check engine light.

Some might remember that the check engine light was flashing earlier, and that I had to manage drilling out two plastic rivets in order to get to the computer to use the "back door" method to check the code. Before I could do that, the car repaired itself, which it annoyingly is failing to do this time. So I drilled out the rivets.

So the thing threw two codes, one "cylinder 4 misfire", one "multi cylinder misfire".

I looked up online and they said this is often a bad fuel injector, and how to test the fuel injectors. The resistance across each injector's connector spades should be 10-15 ohms.

It turns out that the front injectors are easy to get to and test, and the rear injectors require skill, patience and 3 hours to get to and test.

So I tested the front 3 (of a 6 cylinder engine, you see), and #2 and #4 showed 34 ohms while #6 showed 12 ohms.

So I might get two new fuel injectors and change out the known bad ones to see what that does. That's about $150 at Pep Boys. But it'll suck if one or more of the rear injectors have to be replaced too, and the only way I find out is by replacing the front bad ones and waiting for another check engine light.

Wow. you're getting quite handy, thar.

Thank you sir. I do know the electrical bits.

UT, you really only need three cylinders - the others are redundant, just like the extra engines on an airplane.

Hmmmm eBay has used parts, tested as good, for half the price... what do...

at the risk of channelling tw, you need know what's broke before you try to fix it by throwing parts at it. if you're getting multi cyl misfire, and you only have two cyls testing bad... how do you know that's the whole multi group? right, you don't. it is *definitely* OK to solve a problem like this in an iterative fashion, fix what you can see wrong in front of you, test again, fix what shows up next. That's a perfectly fine strategy.

I don't know--do you--what the possible repair/replace solution options are for a fuel injector that tests this way? What about cleaning it? Like I said, *I* don't know in this case. As for misfires, there are a hundred and one ways for a cylinder to misfire. fuel/air/fire.. it is a mystical trinity.

What to do, is still a good question. I'd focus on what it would take to get the electrical readings of those injectors you can reach back into the good range. replace or repair and then go from there.

Someone posted earlier about fuel, spark, air etc. Nowadays what with 769 sensors, computers all over the car, about all a regular Joe can do anymore is throw parts at 'em. Start with the cheapest, most pertinent-est ones.

definitely go to the auto parts store and get the code readings. being too lazy to research, what is the year make and model of the cellar car? a good friend, the same one that helped me swap transmissions, is very good at diagnosis and advice. when i get the Y/M&M i will consult him as well. if it is the injectors i recommend changing them all with new ones. another thing it may be is a bad cam position sensor if you have one on there. the Fixed Or Repaired Daily had that problem and would miss going down the freeway under stress (ie going uphill) but always cranked right up so maybe it'snot that. but worth a look see.

I got the code dude. Cylinder 4 misfire. But I can't afford to even replace the single injector that I think is bad.

This is a 1995 Maxima with a VQ30DE engine which is also found in Maximas through 2001 and Infiniti I30s from 1996-2001.

:smack: you did, didn't you. was speed reading and posting.

ok. RC recommends running prestone fuel injection cleaner through the engine even though you already ran STP through it. then let the car run for about an hour or drive it for that long before replacing the injectors. if it does come to it you can replace them with used ones. i'm on the phone with him now discussing this. lmao he just said you can go to pick a part and put them in your pocket and not pay for em. lol you have to know RC, he's got a heart of gold but will save money where he can. but do this in seriousness, take an old injector with you to make sure you get the correct ones. hope this helps.

It took forever for the eBay'd replacement injectors to arrive, but today I replaced the one saying it was bad.

Result

http://cellar.org/2011/fuckyea.gif

No more codes thrown as yet. Engine runs damn smooth. I've saved $300 by figuring this shit out off the Interwebs.

sweetness

good Job !!!

Now run some injector cleaner thru it

might as well continue the thread

$800 in brake work needed to pass inspection :mecry:

I'm doing it, but this is a tough one.

You can Do it UT !!!!

Just rember to Chock ( Or scotch , or put a block of wood) behind the wheels