Pakistan
 

We need a thread about Pakistan. There are probably some old ones, but they're dormant, so I thought I'd start a fresh one.

Why should we care about Pakistan?
Pakistan is probably more important than Iraq or Afghanistan. It's population exceeds the other two combined. They have nuclear weapons and an army that obeys the political government only when it feels like it. They have a history of political instability, corruption and violence. A significant portion of the country is not under the control of the central government, and in many cases, is held and run by Taliban-like Islamists. It's right next door to Afghanistan.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who are very active in support of civil justice and rights, who will protest loudly sometimes effectively, and they do have elections from time to time. And I have a friend from there, and he is cool.

More recently, Pakistan was probably a staging point for the mass shootings in India, and saw a team of gunmen attack the visiting Sri Lankan cricket team. Very recently, a police academy in Lahore was stormed by a small group of fighters and held for about 8 hours.

This (Northern) spring is looking "interesting" in Afghanistan. It is expected that the coalition will step up efforts do drive their enemies out of the mountain strongholds. My worry is that this will simply drive them, at best, into other places in Afghanistan or, much worse, into Pakistan. This would destabilize Pakistan further. Do we interfere inside Pakistan?

So I thought I would start a thread about Pakistan, and we can update and discuss as things happen.

Fascinating place, Pakistan. As is Kashmir. Lot of Kashmiris in my borough.

Even more than India, Pakistan is contradiction incarnate. Their gender politics are bizarre. Outlying traditional villages might be marrying off their daughters at 9, but the middle class Pakistani women are a completely different kettle of fish.

Great thread. And an important issue. I think we need to be very careful in our intervention in Pakistan. We are pushing the issue already with the missle attacks in the un-governed areas along the border, but I believe that is an acceptable risk. You really can't discuss Pakistan with out discussing Afghanistan in the issue. The ISI has supported the Taliban for years. And the problem most people have is separating the Taliban from al-Qaida. And it seems like the government, first Bush, now Obama, have no interest in ensuring that the public understand the difference. As you stated pouring more US troops into Afghanistan and increasing operations there has the potential for creating more problems in Pakistan, an already fragile government. I fear that Afghanistan will become a bigger quagmire than Iraq ever was, and so far history has proven that notion to be correct.

For some light reading on the subject and from a historical position there are some good reads here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/fs/search...words=Pakistan

I saw an interview with Jehan Al Sadat with Rachel Maddow last week. She was married to Egyptian president Anwar Sadat. She spoke about Pakistan. According to her, almost all the middle eastern terrorist groups work out of Pakistan. She believes peace is possible though. Egypt was the first Muslim country to sign a peace treaty with Israel, and it is still in effect to this day. You can catch the interview here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#29905028

I believe Pakistan is more important than Afghanistan for the stability of the region, but it is hard to separate those two countries when we talk about this. Clearly we will need to work in concert with the government of Pakistan. We cannot afford a war with them. We will never win over the people of those countries though if just continue to occupy the countries over there. That was their beef with us in the first place (well one of them anyway). We need to rethink our strageties.

I was dismayed when Obama announced he would be sending more troops to Afghanistan. Since we ARE planning on spending money there to build things though, I reeeeally hope they use the local population for as many jobs as they are qualified for, because that would go a long way toward creating good will. If we just bring in Americans, that won't help.

Same goes for Pakistan. I think a lot of the people don't support al qaeda or the Taliban, but they don't support us either, so they are choosing the (to them) lesser of two evils when they support terrorist or extremist groups. In order to turn that around, we need to be their partners, not their dictators.

Pakistan will most likely be, if not is, a failed state soon. Once that happens, Pakistan will need to be the number one priority in the region.

No no, he's a terrorist... kill him now. :haha:

The radical Islamists that are trying to minimize, if not usurp, the elected government of Pakistan derives major funding from the afghan poppy crops. They operate like the mafia making it impossible for the Afghan peasants to survive without growing poppies for the Taliban.

The central Afghan government has never controlled the country, because the power belongs to the tribal chiefs who have never bowed to the Afghan government or any foreign government.

If General Petraeus is given the tools and support, I believe his counter insurgency tactics of providing security for the peasants and doling out authority to tribal chiefs that help, can gain the cooperation of the Afghan people in defeating the Taliban and depriving them of that major funding.

I feel this is the best way to help the moderate Pakistanis regain and retain control of their country

Maybe WE could start paying farmers for the poppy growing. We do it with other countries. That is where a lot of our painkillers come from.

I thought we do...

At least pay for the final product.

The answer's been staring us in the face. The USA needs to become a producer of poppies and exporter of heroin. That'd fuck the Afghan poppy trade once and for all.

We do with other countries, but I don't believe we do in Afghanistan. I could be wrong though.

Cannot happen. The farmers are too busy screwing the oil producing nations by growing ethanol.

Worse, he's a post-modernist. I tried to argue some sense into him, but failed.

I like your lateral thinking. Australia grows some poppies, maybe we could expand.
And the USA could take the pressure of Mexico et al by becoming self-sufficient in cocaine.
To hell with energy security, food security, how about some DRUG security???

yea Zen, we are on the verge of a serious drug war here because of Mexican drug cartel violence spilling over into the border states. We have been so worried about Iraq for the past 6 years we have completely ignored our own borders. Yet another reason why I think all drugs should be legalized and controlled, except for plants, which should just be legal, because they're, you know, plants.

Even the Opium poppy?

But instead we have a poppy thread. :haha:

it is ridiculous to outlaw a plant, any plant.

Any plant? :eek:

bwahahahaha

Pakistan rejects U.S. plan

I do not think we can turn over that technology. I think we need other nations involved in this process.

What do we need other nations for? I'm not sure what you mean?

Because. We do not want to "go it alone" again. That has caused us enough trouble in the world community, so having other countries involved in negotiations and with whatever other kinds of actions (including diplomacy) we take in Pakistan and Afghanistan is key to success. Personally, I think we should get the hell out, but we won't, so since we are staying, this is what we need to do. We can't turn our technology over to a nation that is allowing the Taliban and al qaeda santuary in their country when they are supposed to be helping us catch them. That is just not acceptable. But since Pakistan wants that, we need help negotiating some other outcome that is acceptable to everyone.

36min long.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/st...deo_index.html

PBS Frontline shows are all on line now. Better video feeds than in the past.

Another, this one about the moderates struggle.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/st...deo_index.html

yea, Frontline has been online for ages Merc. I really like and respect that show.

How come the Pakistani football team has never won the world cup?


Every time they get a corner, they open up a corner shop.

You may continue.

Yes it has. I have been watching it on line at least since 2000-01. What has changed is the quality of the feed and the fact that the video is now embeded in the website.

Meanwhile, back in Pakistan, the Swat valley is getting very dodgy.

About a month ago, the Islamabad government made a very dangerous deal to allow talleban to control the Swat valley and have sharia law there, provided they behaved themselves externally - not helping their buddies over in Afghansitan or destabilising the rest of Pakistan.
Surprise surprise, the deal has collapsed, there is significant fighting. I've seen conflicting media reports, but the central govt is sending in forces, there is fighting 100 km from the capital, civilians are trying to flee.
I really don't know what is going on but it looks a bit dodgy. I just hope they keep their nukes locked up really really tightly!

Al Qaeda says would use Pakistani nuclear weapons

That is a very good reason to switch over to alternatives as soon as possible. Republicans only want to drill for oil though, which would take too much time, or build nuclear plants. We need something that we can do much faster. The sooner we can get out of those countries, the better.

There is no oil in Afghanistan. Nor Pakistan.

(Mind you, I'd like to see "us" all well out of these countries.)

I was responding to this

"Our goals have been the Americans ... and the oil targets which they are stealing to gain power to strike the mujahideen and Muslims."

in the article that was quoted.

I'd rather live in Purgatory than Pakistan:rolleyes:

I've got a mate in Pakistan. Mostly it is quite livable, he says. But if I was there, I guess I'd be constantly thinking about escape routes.

No oil? Maybe. But there are many pipelines in the those countries.

:lol2:

An hour long, but well worth the loading time for those who are interested in an intellectual assessment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsmJIwe9Q4

No surprise here.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6788782.ece

WOW, that is scary:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/n...ow/4879235.cms

Man, Pakistan is going wobbly right now. There have been 8 separate significant attacks on police, military, government and civilian targets in the last two weeks. They've attacked the training headquarters of the anti-taliban commando force.
The general public have little faith that the secular government can protect them, but they have a good enough idea of what life would be like if the taliban took over, and they don't want that. Good luck to them.

Yea but it does sound like they are trying to hit back at the previous no-go zones in a big way. Hopefully it is not just political grandstanding. I would imagine that with the support of our drones it has given them the kind of air support they lack to go into areas that they previously never would have gone to and begin the process of kicking some ass.

Pakistan is certainly participating in some ass kicking - its own. This just in:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_pakistan_violence

Yea I heard about that. I think it just means they are ramping up the pressure on the insurgents. They are obviously feeling the pain. It is about time Pakistan stepped up to the plate.

The Army made a deal with two of the South Waziristan warlords, to stay out of the fighting and not interfere with the Army crossing their land. Divide and conquer.

I saw a Pakistani army spokesman saying that the offensive in South Waziristan is meeting less resistance than expected.


That's because they enemy guerrilas have all slipped through your lines and are now behind you, blowing up your cities. Duh. Or D'oh! They're playing whack-a-mole. With guns. And armed moles.

Uh Oh, an American Predator hit one of those warlords with a missile, now they are pissed.

You don't get to be a warlord by not responding to that kind of thing.

Osama's really let himself go.

Bomb fucking video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43DKlEe8Ko8

Ok, that one fucking hurt. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zg2A9M6QqY

I wonder how the repubicans are going to spin that into a negative.

Good question.