North Korean Missile Test
 

U.S. Ready to Respond to N.Korea Missile
Admiral Keating Tells ABC News U.S. Prepared to Shoot Down Missile If Obama Gives OK

I wonder if this is the type of thing Biden was referring to during the election.

Glad to see North Korea got someone to smuggle in a copy of Biden's speeches. Now all they have to do is dust off one of their missiles, the ones with the unique, patented, squirrel in a hamster-wheel gyroscopic guidance system, and point it at Japan for a while. Until everyone goes into hysterics, and then they'll throw their toys around the pram while shouting "but its just not fair, mom" to anyone bored enough to listen.

I doubt Obama has the balls to order a shoot down.

Dude, its a North Korean missile. Shooting it down would be redundant.

Anyway, so long as they keep sabre-rattling, the Japanese have a legitimate excuse to ignore and bypass Article 9 of their Constitution - a reason which the Chinese cannot openly protest without looking paranoid anyhow. And that fits in with overall US strategic plans to use the threat of Japanese attack to keep the CCP in line, should they start getting any funny ideas. And Russia gets to bluster and feel important because its part of the six nation talks.

Everyone's a winner, except China, South Korea and the starving people of North Korea.

The only cure for the NK's is a coup d’état.

Nuke 'em is always the solution advocated by every nation's extremists. Extremists make good cannon fodder but not good for nations that solve problems intelligently and without war.

Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out.

The only way to stop the majority from poking you in the goddam eye.

North Korea has always acted crazy in order to force concessions. No-one is fooled by it any more. In the 70s and early 80s, they were truly crazy. Tunnels under the demilitarized zone leading directly into Seoul (which you could march regiments down). Blowing up the entire South Korean cabinet, barring the President, in Rangoon. Infiltration missions down the coast line.

They don't do things by half measures, and if North Korea really wanted to nuke someone, a lack of a missile delivery system would not have stopped them by now. Seal up a warhead in a boat and you can float it into any harbour in the world and let it go boom. They're threatening because they want concessions. Fuel, food, maybe the a DVD of Season 6 of The Shield for Kim...hell, they may even be trying to establish a decent negotiating position for the reunification of the country. Maybe not just yet, but Kim boy won't live forever, and he has few suitable sucessors. Not to mention the country is falling apart.

There are things even worse than war, tw. Understand that, or understand nothing, ever.

And since "intelligently" isn't how the DPRK seems to solve any problem, and "without war" is also clearly not an option the DPRK picks, place the blame where it belongs: on the nondemocracy. These people aren't going to do anything but fuck it up, and get their regime extinguished -- and why not by force? Will they yield to anything else? -- in the finishing up of Communism.

Touche'.


Add in the Japanese abductions. The NKs sent commando raids into Japanese coastal areas and islands and abducted scores, maybe hundreds of Japanese citizens, to take back to NK and 're-educate' (brainwash), probably with the idea of returning them as secret agents, or at least using them to train their own agents.

Can anyone say "act of war"? "Causus belli"?

Um, how come we are allowed to wing missiles over the Pacific, every now and then, but they are not? :eyebrow:

Good point. Probably the same reason you're allowed to have nuclear weapons, and they're not. :right:

Although, in the past their short range tests have gone directly towards Japan, and their long range tests directly over it. The Japanese get a little twitchy about that shit. Imagine Cuba testing missiles over Florida. A post-nuclear Florida.

Because we know how not to use them.

Except Japan doesn't have an armed force who can go in and deal with such things (yet). Article Nine of their Constitution specifically forbids them, though as North Korea get more threatening, there will be more popular support for constitutional revision. Also, the (likely) incoming government has made noises to the effect that they do not want to be reliant entirely on American military power, which is usually the stealth argument for remilitarization.

Besides, its a little late to go to war now, since they have been returned.

Its because we don't have to use them...we are too big and strong to be seriously threatened enough.

Yeh and a lot of the banks were too big to fail...

not being sarcastic - just sayin' I wonder if that argument holds true anymore.

*cough*historical-rise-and-fall-of-empires*cough*

You underestimate Japan's "Self Defence Force".
True, a section in the constitution forbids them sending troops overseas. But they have a large and well equipped military oops I mean Self Defence Force. Almost 250,000 troops, and, as examples, more than 800 tanks, 100 F4 Phantom fighter jets, 200 F15 Eagle fighter jets, dozens of destroyers, 18 submarines.

However, you might point out that they lack capacity to deploy force overseas in large amounts. That, and public opinion and the constitution, are the only things holding them back.

According to many Japanese, many abductees have not been returned. I don't know the facts on this.

Have the ones that came back been probed?

Thoroughly.

The Japanese also have some of the best BMD technology in the world.

Aegis Combat System. Courtesy of 'Merica.

I disagree. The SDF does not attract high calibre recruits, and many can quit at any time (being, technically, civilian forces). Conditions are hardly what would be called "attractive", even by the relatively low standards of military life in general, and their main combat experience has been as U.N. Peacekeepers and in aid relief. They're highly reliant on the USA for any sort of credible form of deterrence. Their navy is incapable of even defending their own vital trade links with the rest of the world.

In addition, there are problems with large deployments and popular opinion yes, though in the case of self-defence the latter would no doubt vanish fairly quickly.

I've heard the stories too, but without evidence they are little more than stories. Lots of people go missing, for lots of reasons. Some people may prefer the idea that their loved ones were taken by force. Its better than imagining they left of their own accord, or are dead. Some may be true, but without evidence...who's to say?

True, but that is true of most countries. It depends on who they're fighting. Japan Vs North Korea, I'll bet on Japan. Japan Vs China, I bet on China (unless USA jumps in, in which case... arma-bloody-geddon). Japan Vs Australia ... ahh, I don't think we could actually reach each other.

Again, true, and again if we are comparing to North Korea I suspect that if push came to shove we would find that a large portion of the people in the NK military only joined because it was the only way to get food on a regulr basis.

Yet again, there are many "possible" abductions, but I do believe there are several certain cases - abductees acknowledged by both govts. As for the rest, you're probably right about some.

Makes power projection very tricky, that.:cool:

And I end up imagining JMSDF and RAN frigates waking people up somewhere in the Philippines with gun reports and explosions coming from out to sea.

The respective submarine forces might be the most lethal combatants. Collins-class boats seem to have all the range they need, being designed to operate throughout the I.O.

Or we're faced with the spectacle of each country's P-3 Orions (they'd have the range) popping at each other with aircrew pistols out of the pilots' windows. Determining the winners would have to be by decision, though... counting the bullet holes in the planes' skins. Quick, install some rails for Sidewinders.:D

But if either nation had to work up its own complete, blue-water navy, their likely urgent theaters of operations would be the Indian Ocean and the western Pacific, covering both the majority of their shipping traffic and their connection with the Persian Gulf oil states.

We may get a show, yet.

This explains our policy of kissing America's butt as much as possible. We're hoping you'll decide you like us better than them.

For any "them".


(Seriously though, it's only China we're wary of.)

And India.

And Lumberjim.

If the Indians invade, we'll just play cricket with them.

Lumberjim, can you bowl?


FTR, If my sources are correct (daughter of a guy in the air force) Australia does have mid-air refueling capabilities so we could, in principle, bomb Japan. Just a little. Kind of a sony-minaturised bonsai bombing.

I thought Bush took care of the "Don't Fuck With US" era. Some people never learn.

Once upon a lifetime I unofficially worked a project with an Australian Air Force pilot who flew tankers.

Puts the "do little" in Doolittle Raid, doesn't it?

Likewise, there's an RAN underway replenishment capability for surface action. One of the pages I hit on was an article about one of Australia's two AORs unrepping a US carrier -- the captain was moved to remark that the replenishment was on a larger scale than he usually saw. Probably pumping over a lot more JP-5 and vertrepping more food.

Article.

Your link goes to JP-8 not JP-5

Pass the keys to Michelle, she does. She's scary.

This missile launch does not become front page news until later in the week when a three stage rocket is expected to be assembled. What happens after than will be interesting. One question that does remain unanswered: is Kim still in charge?

Sure, the Iranians who came to help out brought a letter to him. They would know who to address the letter to.

Kim had a stroke a few month ago. In two months, the Iranians provided Korea with a three stage rocket to attack Japan. Now I understand. The Iranians are now in charge. All they had to do is put the correct name on a letter.

It starts with JP-8. Then I suppose for the sake of completeness, it gets around to its seafaring brother, JP-5. The JP-5 refs start in the first paragraph. And there's the JP-5 link at the bottom of that page for the insatiable curiosity.

Bird away!

Shit's gonna hit the fan now.

The most devestating thing we could do to North Korea is ... ignore them.

Fine, nice launch (allegedly not, actually), cary on.

No. After all the posturing and ultimatums, nothing will happen.

It could have been problematic if the missile had failed and N Korea blamed an anti-missile. Or it could have been a problem had it crashed on Japan. Then we might have discovered who is currently in charge - Kim or his extremist military.

Maybe the rocket did not do as well as they expected. We don't even know that. But there is no indication that anything obtained orbit implying the rocket was not as powerful as they claimed.

I saw one report, "quoting a reliable source":rolleyes:, that said there was no satellite on the rocket. Maybe they didn't have that much confidence in the rocket to risk the satellite on the first shot... if they actually have a satellite.

Ahh, Japanese school uniforms. There should be playboy bunny logos on their socks, though.

So true.

The NK 'news' is reporting that the launch was a complete success and the satellite is in orbit. The reporters here said that's prolly all the "citizens" would ever know.
I don't think the common citizens in our country really have a clue about whats really happening.
We trust the news reporters. And I think there's usually two stories to most everything on a global level... the true story, and the story the government wants us to hear. I strongly doubt these two stories collaborate.
Propaganda is a strong tool in their society. We all know that. Makes me wonder how much propaganda we hold as the absolute truth.
Our country is prolly closer to the truth than most of the rest, though. We can investigate and dispute w/o too much of a hassle.
Sorry about the random thoughts.....just thinking.:eyebrow:

When you have access to many sources of information much propaganda from any country can be disputed. When you have only one access to information from a single source you will never be free. I am sure that the majority reports were correct and the rocket was nothing more than an empty payload and an attempt to draw attention to themselves during the G-20 meetings in Europe at the time. The NK pattern of saber rattles is pretty predictable in that respect.

Very appropriate at this time, I think.

Spider Robinson once wrote that the government lies, and the press lies -- and in a free society, they aren't the same lies. Emphasis in the original.