ACORN'S HOUSING-RIGHTS HUSTLERS
 

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Are these the exception or the rule?

ACORN is indeed organizing acts of civil disobedience to help home owners facing foreclosure.

The Home Staying campaign is described on the ACORN website.
The details about the specific "victim" in Baltimore, as described by Michele Malkin in her NY Post editorial? Thats a different story.

Hell, its Michele Malkin, a habitual liar in pursuit of her personal political agenda. I would like to see the more questionable allegations in her editioral verified by a reputable source.

In any case, IMO, the ACORN act is much like those acts committed by groups like Operation Rescue in the past, who would use civil disobedience to block abortion clinics, including questionable tactics against women entering such clinics and or the doctors/employees working in such clinics.

I recall Malkin praising such efforts in the past as "front line fighters for justice." So whats the difference between ACORN and Operation Rescue?

The ACORN (or Operation Rescue) dramatic and very public type actions are not my style of political protest, but if groups want to engage in acts of civil disobedience and accept the consequences, its ok with me up until the point they approach physical violence, personal intimidation or threats of violence, or gross destruction of property.

ACORN is the douchebag organization that blackmailed loan companies to force loan approval for the unqualified hopeful homebuyers on the grounds that everyone deserves to own a home. Now that it has become apparent that maybe, possibly, these people couldn't get loans before because they didn't deserve them ACORN wants to come up with some noble civil disobedience. Bullshit. They're trespassing, arrest and try them.

Blackmailed loan companies?

WTF are you talking about.

This is the kind of bullshit that gives you zero credibility.

Yes...the should get arrested for trespassing. In part, that is their intent.

Love it or hate it, that is what is at the heart of civil disobedience.

Whether it is ACORN occupying foreclosed homes.

Or Operation Rescue blocking health clinics.

Or Black college kids in the 60s breaking public accommodation laws and sitting in at "whites only" lunch counters in southern cities.

The hypocrisy of the selective outrage of folks like Michele Malkin is what is laughable.

Look up ACORN's activities with mortgage companies in the late 1990's and the beginning of this decade. I challenge you to really look at it and then call it anything but legalized blackmail. ACORN is far far from black college kids of the 60's trying to get equality.

I know that ACORN is the latest and greatest bogeyman to the far right.

But ACORN did not commit commit widespread voter fraud during the last election as alleged by Malkin and others

There is not $$millions in the economic recovery bill for ACORN as alleged by several Republican members of Congress.

And ACORN did not blackmail loan companies as you allege, unless lobbying for the CRA is considered blackmail by wingnuts.

Filter out all the bullshit, including all of the above as well as the unsubstantiated and sensationalist allegations in Malkin's editorial, and judge the ACORN "home staying campaign" for what it is - a self-descibed act of civil disobediance.

I wouldnt participate in it, but I dont find it to be so outrageous...or at least any more so than other political acts of civil disobediance.

And that would go back to what was probably the first act of civil disobediance in the country (or soon to be country) - the Boston Tea Party.

ACORN had a nice racket before the housing bubble. They'd approach subprime lenders and let them know they didn't like their lending practices and they were going to be acting on the behalf of those descriminated against. (That would be non-white people) If the companies lowered their credit standards and gave a nice donation to ACORN they went away quietly. If they didn't ACORN called borrowers with hispanic last names and told them they might not have to repay their mortgages if they'd just tell a few little lies. Lies like "i don't speak english", "i didn't understand my loan", "I was declined because I'm not white". They would then take these fools on a nice PR campaign boycotting mortgage company offices with signs and geniuses wearing shark suits. Most of the claims were dismissed rather quickly in court - such as the one from the lady who claimed she was taken advantage of because she didn't know english... but gave her deposition in english. or the man who claimed he didn't understand the loan documents... until it was pointed out he was the guy who did all the purchase contracts for a large retail real estate company.
Unfortunately ACORN is well aware the damage bad PR does so most of the mortgage companies wrote checks and approved loans for the credit unworthy to avoid the hassle.

Don't pretend ACORN is some benevolent organization out to help the little guy. They are crooks.

YIKES....the ACORN boogeyman is everywhere!

Believe what you want....but you dont have any facts to support the bogus fear-mongering charges of the far right fringe.

Congraulations on your appaling ignornance or blind fealty to the wingnut version of truth, justice and the Amerixcan way. :)

The GOP Blame ACORN GAME - certainly as credible as Michelle Malkin.

Wow, you really are impressive. It's almost like you know me better than I know myself. :rolleyes:

From where I stand I see your logic as follows:
1) Michelle Malkin = stupid and bad
2) Michelle Malkin doesn't like ACORN
3) ACORN = Admirable organization

Did I miss a step there? It doesn't seem to make much more sense than the underpants' gnomes business plan. Do you normally throw out the "you believe differently so you must be ignorant" card so quickly or was this a special event?

My opinion on ACORN isn't based on some 2nd rate blogger or the latest Hannity/Limbaugh rants. The events I described are events that I personally witnessed. I am intimately familiar with the ACORN M.O. I can see how your logic is easier to grasp though, in a back of the shortbus kind of way.

The problem here is that if what I say is true and your great savior worked with them... then maybe he isn't so spotless either... uh, oh - better ignore that. Wouldn't want your head to explode afterall.

I am not defending ACORN.....I am simply looking for documentation of their alleged criminal acts.

When charges are made of blackmailing loan companies or having a crooked racket responsible for the housing bubble.....I would like to see something factual to back it up....not "google it yourself" or "I saw it firsthand."

WHy is that so hard to provide credible and independent documentatoin of ACORN'S alleged criminal activities if such activities are so wdiespread?

WHy cant conservatives ever provide FACTS? It's alway "I saw it first hand" or "I read that Joe Schmoe said on Rush Limbaugh or saw it on Malkin that he said his cousin saw...."

If you saw it firsthand, did you report it? If not, why not?

Facts, dude!

:lol2: I just read through your link. That is some excellent spin ya got there Tex. It doesn't line up with the facts as I experienced them, but it is a good read.
Maybe I should correct my phrasing. Criminal does imply they were actually tried and convicted of something and that certainly didn't happen. ACORN plays within the letter of the law as an organization. They certainly can't be held responsible if their members stretch the boundaries some. ;) Any challenge of their motives or methods is met with cries of racism and discrimination while they run for the cover of their "helping the downtrodden" mission statement.

But now that I think about it you're probably right. I mean, really, it's easy to see how those wingnuts rightwingers can be fooled by propaganda - they're stupid afterall. You and yours are much to intelligent to buy propaganda hook, line, and sinker though. My bad.

I dont claim the Nation is without its own spin....but I am not the one making allegations.

You made the charge of ACORN being crooked with some racket that caused the housing bubble.

Sepmats made the charge of blackmailing loan companies.

So..document it!

Support your allegation with facts from an independent source.

Why is that so hard?

Actually I did. That was buried somewhere in the multiple hours of my multiple depositions though. The newspapers and news channels were more than happy to run the stories of mortgage and loan fraud ACORN provided them with, but they weren't in such a hurry to run the news when those stories turned out to be false.

How is this a conservative/liberal issue? You slag off those who don't like ACORN and post a link to a spin article as your support. I make a statement and describe my personal experiences but somehow it becomes a "conservatives never have proof" issue? Brilliant.

I am just asking for facts to support your allegation...and the previous allegation of blackmailing.

I wasnt the one to make those allegations of illegal or crooked acts by ACORN.

In all these years and with all these allegations, why is there never any documentation....its all hearsay or second hand or regurgitation of the same talking points....but never any facts...never any sources!

If it is so evident, why have there never been any investigations or charges against ACORN for alleged blackmailing or corruption anywhere in the country?

So now you suggest it was "buried" in your multiple hours of depositions and ignored by the court and/or local media...who somehow would rather protect ACORN than investigate an alleged criminal activity or report a news breaking story about how they corrupted the housing finance market.

Can you understand why that might be hard to accept?

Good point. It must not have happened.

Shouldn't it be "innocent until proven guilty" rather than "guilty until proven innocent?"

Thats all I am suggesting.

However you want to look at it is cool with me. I know my personal experiences with ACORN over a period of 2 years. I know who they are and how they operate. They are a very well organized smash and grab operation with good PR. That doesn't jive with your view of them. I'm cool with that. In all honesty I believe I could provide you with video of the legal proceedings and transcripts and it still wouldn't change your view of things. Doesn't bother me a bit, you'll just have to pardon me if I chuckle a bit at your indignation at the "wingnuts" ability to be bite onto the talking points.

Feel free to post the video of the legal proceedings and transcripts and we can discuss it further. ;)

Yeah, I'll get right on that.

BTW, I worked with ACORN as well on national lobbying coalitions over time, particularly on CDBG issues.

I didnt particularly like their lobbying style...a bit too aggressive and confrontational for me and some others in the coalition. But when hardball was needed, they were the first to step to the plate.

In much the same manner as other advocacy organizations play hardball...the NRA comes to mind..or even AARP....those grannies can be bitch to lobby with or against. And both have massive PR campaigns on their issues of interest that dwarf anything ACORN does.

That doesnt make them unethical or crooked or their acts illegal.



I wont hold my breath.

No, but if they contacted people and instructed them to lie in order to squeeze money out of companies then, yes they would also be unethical. Then again, I'm biased as I think all lobby groups should be illegal but I know that'll never change. Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book.

Thank you for such an astute and objective observation. :eek:

"To generalize is to be an idiot...."

~William Blake

But then again, I do have general thoughts about wingnuts who can never provide the facts to support their baseless allegations. ;)

Fair enough. Let me be more specific. Individuals who choose to make their living attempting to buy politicians in a legal manner are human fucksticks who I rate just below child rapists on the scale of asshattery.

so take your little winking smilie and choke to death on it.

sincerely,

Lookout

Damn, dude.....All that anger and ignorance is really not good for your health.

But I wish you well.

From a former lobbyist who never spent a dime on a politician, relying solely on the facts on the ground and the goodwill of people with shared interests to make my case...sometimes more successfully than others. :)

Thats probably why you are a "former" lobbyist. :rolleyes:

Yep...after a couple years, I was burned out.

Not ashamed to admit that its demoralizing and it takes it toll when the deck is stacked against you.

Such is the life of a low paid, public interest lobbyist.

Now I have a cushy public interest job! I paid my dues and I earned it.

Damm right. As we have seen right here.

And yet with all this honesty and now Merc's added affirmation of the sincere wishes, still absolutely nothing to support the allegations made about ACORN.

Nice deflection, guys! :D

I trust the experince that lookout related. Combined with reports in the press about their practices during the election, that is good enough for me.

Merc...why am I not surprised that its "good enough for you" to believe hearsay ("the courts and the media hid my testimony and covered up for acorn") and sensationalism in the press stirred up by the right ("acorn's massive election fraud" that never resulted in any charges) if it supports your pre-determined belief, rather than seek out the facts.

Dont you want to at least watch his video and read his transcripts with me?

Maybe if you ask nicely, he will post it for us. :)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest." -- Paul Simon, The Boxer

Depends on who is giving the hearsay.

I also suspect that posting videos and transcripts may be legally fraught.

Knowing that you were/are a lobbyist Redux certainly changes the way I read your posts.

I do recall more than one interview with ACORN voter registration takers, they were quite honest about the things they did. Unless you are trying to say this was some kind of Right-wing Conspiracy ala Hillary Clinton, I have not seen much that supports their good work that wasn't published by them or equally partisan left-wingers. That is the problem with our Informations Super Highway (Thanks Al Gore!).

The courts didn't hide anything that I'm aware of. You asked why I didn't tell anyone about my experiences with ACORN and I simply stated that I did. My depositions disclosed my experiences.

1) I wrote loans for people. I don't read or write spanish so I've never done a loan for anyone who doesn't speak English.

2) Several of my clients, along with many more that ACORN rounded up, claimed they spoke no english so didn't understand the loans.

3) ACORN got plenty of press by having jackasses in shark costumes walk picket lines in front of our offices. The news ran stories featuring "poor families who were taken advantage of".

4) When the cases I was involved in (and many of the others I'm aware of) progressed they either fell apart before or during the first appearance in court. They all spoke english. They all read english. they all had crappy credit that is why they had 7-9% mortgages, language and skin color were irrelevent. In the end several of the people admitted ACORN representatives called them (ACORN admitted to pulling loan records and contacting clients) and told them they might not have to pay their mortgages if they said they didn't understand what they signed because of language problems. ACORN of course said maybe an overzealous rep or too might have stepped out of bounds (kind of like what they said when the voter registration fraud came up)

5) Like many other companies targeted by ACORN my company found it easier to write a big check to ACORN for their "community education programs" and make the story go away. ACORN cashed their check and moved onto their next victim(I believe Wells Fargo was the next to follow in our steps, but I'm not positive). Some of the AG's involved in the cases got bumped into governor's mansions. The company agreed to a gag order on any info beyond a touchy feely ACORN helped the little guy press release.

That's the long and short of it. No information was hidden from the courts. The courts simply didn't care. We were sued, cases were dismissed, negative press was affecting business, so the company wrote a check. ACORN wins.

A pretty good original source. LO has my vote.

Thats their M.O. Use people to get more money and more power. Illegal? ......Probably.
Provable.... Probably not.
Unethical ...Damn skippy

Jesse Jackson perfected the scam years ago, they are just following an out of the box system.

WHAT???? You racist you!

Filtering through all of the above, here is what emerged for me:

In the past, ACORN exercised its right of peaceful assembly and speech and held protest rallies in front of Lehman Bros or Wells Fargo to highlight what they considered to have been predatory lending practices and redlining.....and you dont agree with their tactics or their message and somehow that makes it unethical if not illegal.

And still lingering is Lookout's still undocumented "personal" account of alleged illegal activities that the courts ignored.

Bottom line is that ACORN has never been charged with any criminal activities in either their voting registration activities or their housing finance advocacy activities.

You just dont like the way they do business...and that is your right. I dont agree with all of their practices either.

IMO, what is unethical is making allegations of criminal activities that you cant document.

What sucks for you Redux is that we've had much more interaction with lookout than you and as such trust his word at face value. Your blanket suspicion isn't flying because you're the only one here who has an unfounded, inherent distrust of what he has said to have experienced.

Right...I dont find it credible that a court would simply ignore an allegation of illegal activities and that as lookout seemed to imply, it was because of some kind of unexplained court sympathy for ACORN...Perhaps they reviewed the allegations and found that they were w/o merit.

I have no idea, nor does lookout as to if or why his allegations were ignored.

And the fact still remains....ACORN has never been charged with any criminal activities in either their voters registration activities or their housing finance advocacy activities.

Unless its all part of a vast left wing conspiracy or cover up, this fact of no charges against ACORN anywhere in the country might lead one to conclude that their activities have not been illegal as charged here.

I understand why that sucks for the ACORN accusers.

Redux I think you may be operating under the incorrect assumption that I'm trying to convince you of something. I stated my experiences, you don't believe them. That's cool, move on. I will be after this post. I believe I clarified earlier that even I couldn't specifically prove that the events I witnessed were part of a formal ACORN business plan. That would be illegal. They are very good at keeping themselves out of trouble by using the rogue rep ploy.

I'm not part of the republican party, as I find them just as repulsive as the democratic party. My statements in this thread weren't a right/left pile on. I related my personal experiences which you can choose to believe or not, that's up to you.

Sounds like the mob! Everyone knows who they are and what they do. Not all of them have charges brought up tough.

Lookouts word is gold around here. You are a newcomer who is an admitted lobbyist. BTW - who are you lobbying for now? ACORN or one of their many shell companies, err I mean subsidiaries?

Thanks, classic.

I understand now that a member's word can be more golden than the facts and certainly more than ... :eek: ....an admitted lobbyist....particularly if you are predisposed to share that member's opinion.

And presumption of innocence need not apply.

Who needs officials findings of violations of law in order to point your finger at people (or organizations), with whom you might disagree, and declare "guilty" of criminal activity.

I accept the verdict of the lookout/merc/classic court.....ACORN is guilty of high crimes for being an aggressive lobbying and community based organization.

Should I presume you share this sentiment as well:

Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book...

Just nod, no independent thinking required!

Generally speaking, I hear stuff like the ACORN vote rigging, or their actions around mortgages, and I assume bias and misinformation. But Lookout, I trust. I don't necessarily share his analysis, but if he tells me he experienced those actions then he experienced those actions.

you're welcome. Yeh, I've been here for years and not that L123 needs it, but I will certainly defend him.

Dana...thank you for a reasonable and rationale response and defense of your friend's position.

Classic....thank for showing your true CLASS by acknowledging that defense of your friend's position required you to join his assault on the character of another member.

Just because someone'e been here for a long time doesn't mean they're right...or wrong.

My point?

Length of membership doesn't give you special priviledges...

...or does it?

It's not about length of membership. Well...maybe a little, but only inasmuch as, with someone who has been here longer we're more likely to have formed a 'reliable' opinion on their character. Having spent a few years getting to know Lookout, I feel fairly confident in suggesting that one of his character traits is scrupulous honesty.

ditto

I do remember that quite well. PUSH did perfect it. Seems like ACORN is not quite as good at the scam though.

Hey. Im not questioning his honesty in one regard. Particularly when he finally said, "I couldn't specifically prove that the events I witnessed were part of a formal ACORN business plan...."

What I think is dishonest is his blanket suspicion and unfounded, inherent distrust and characterization of every person who works in the lobbying industry with one broad stroke:

Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book...

Let me be more specific. Individuals who choose to make their living attempting to buy politicians in a legal manner are human fucksticks who I rate just below child rapists on the scale of asshattery.

I honestly dont know how any objective observer would not see this as having a bias that might impact his thinking on the subject.

But I understand now that his unfounded blanket suspicion carries more weight than mine.

Perhaps I should just proceed with the "knowledge" that every one in the housing finance industry is equally despicable because of a few greedy and unethical rogues in the business.

With that, I am done with this discussion.

Its been...interesting? ... to say the least.

Here..here.

I believe it was YOU who attacked him. He defended himself. It was you who challenged his credibility. I defended it. For the record, L123 is not my "friend."

And exactly what politician is going to challenge an organization like ACORN during an election year? They have to be nuts too.

BTW, you didn't answer the question - Who are you lobbying for now?

Right...asking him to document his allegations that ACORN is a crooked organization engaging in illegal practices is a personal attack.

And of course all lobbyists are a lower life form than child rapists and the housing finance industry is above reproach.

Predatory lending? bah, humbug...a figment of the imagination of groups like ACORN.

And a 2000 HUD-Treasury report on Predatory Lending that described past predatory lending practices is just a load of crap:

Over the last several years, our nation has made enormous progress in expanding access to capital for previously under served borrowers. Despite this progress, however, too many families are suffering today because of a growing incidence of abusive practices in a segment of the mortgage lending market. Predatory mortgage lending practices strip borrowers of home equity and threaten families with foreclosure, destabilizing the very communities that are beginning to enjoy the fruits of our nation’s economic success.

Shame on HUD and ACORN for bringing a little light to the issue of predatory lending.

And what I do now for a living is none of your business...since I think its now fair to assume you will use it against me, regardless of what I say.

Nope - just looking for a little perspective. I'm beginning to wonder if you are one of them. :tinfoil:

A very mature response.

Nope...I can say with 100% confidence that I am not lower than a child rapist.....how about you?

Cute - a very political response. FTR - I was referring to whether you were still a lobbyist or otherwise associated with ACORN.