08/07/02: Bitch.
 

There are certain groups of people, mostly guys, who enjoy insulting each other for sport. Calling each other bitch, gay, or just giving each other a hard time. It's like a form of joking around, and if you're around a group that does this you'll find yourself called all kinds of names and made fun of, all in the name of good fun. I guess you could call it trash talking. The guys where I work do this a lot, and it's pretty fun. I do it all the time, too, and it makes the day go by faster.

But there are some guys who don't realize that some people just don't like this form of jest. They talk to women the same way they talk to guys. This is amazing to me -- they actually think that they can insult the waitresses and not have them get really pissed off and take them seriously. It's not just between men and women, though. Some guys don't get it, either. You have to have been a member of a social group that does it in order to get it. When I first started working there, I thought everyone hated me. It took me months to understand.

I think that this is a huge factor in social chasms between people. A lot of people just don't realize when to insult someone and when not to.

I also think this could be related to my earlier thread about parents insulting their kids. Some people learn to communicate in a certain way around their friends. But they don't make that social distinction between their friends and everyone else, and they just talk the same way to everybody. They call their friends stupid in jest, so why not do it to their wife and kids, too? Believe it or not, I think this seems very logical in their minds. One mind, one form of communication.

I just want to shake these people, and say, "You moron! Do not insult women, they do not get it."

i cant imagine saying some of the things said in my group of friends to anyone else on the planet, and would probably deny it if someone asked me. that being said, maybe you would consider sharing some of the more... creative... insults youve heard. i can always use more material, even if it is stolen. :)

~james

I do this all the time with friends. "slut" "hussie" "ho"...

some of the more creative ones? "Ass pumping anal spelunker" is probably my most commonly used one. I just like saying it. :)

To a certain extent joking abuse is used among folks who know each other really well to ironically emphasize how close they are. It's especially common in all-male working groups. I used to hear this kind of talk all the time at work, before my transition.

But one fellow used to do it incessantly...and all of it of about the tenor of dhamsic's latest "Ass pumping anal spelunker". It was like reading "The Dilber Hole" every day for hours on end. It used to get wearying and distatsteful after a while, especially since the themes of it led me to conclude the guy was simply a classic, raging homophobe.

My revenge on him was my gender transition. Even though he'd left the department he was still with the company...and had to work with me occasionally. He was one of the very few people who really couldn't deal with it, and the *only* one that I took copious delight in how uptight working with me made him. :-)

Ah, but see, I am not a raging homophobe. I just play one on TV.

The way the original poster described those individuals, neither were they. Blatantly ignorant insensitivity is what this may be all about, homophobia being a societal undercurrent that is getting lost amidst pseudo-PC brouhaha.

Besides, <a href="http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php?threadid=1060&perpage=15&pagenumber=2">we've been here before</a>, dhamsaic. :-)

What some people think is perfectly acceptable and good jovial fun may often sting and hurt others. But then, lack of consideration and the cult of egomania and personality is the new religion, anyway.

X.

And in fact most of the guys that indulged in this stuff weren't either, for the most part. Of course, they were acting as enablers, too...and it's the implicit cultural assumption that queers are a despised class that is the fuel that makes this engine go.

How gay is that?

For the love of Christ...

I only joke that way with my friends. Sycamore and I do it. We have an understanding that we're just joking around.

I don't hate black people either. But I call some people "nigga".

I don't hate white people. But I call some people "cracka".

Big fuckin' deal. The easily offended can eat my poop.

Besides, when the fuck in this thread did I say "ass pumping anal spelunker" meant "homosexual ass pumping anal spelunker"?

Word up...D is my muthaphuckin nigga down in DC yo!!!

"I'm a nigga with cash, a nigga with a lawyer. Not a watermelon, chicken-eatin' nigga down south, but a nigga that'll smack the taste out ya mouth!"--Ice-T

I'd like to think of myself as an Equal Opportunity Offender. I like to piss off everyone. In our hyper-PC world, one innocent word could piss off billions of people. You can't please all the people all the time. ;)

Seriously though, I admittedly use slurs when hanging out with close friends...people that know where I'm coming from and people that I know won't flip out over it. I'll use "nigger" around Rho (who is black), "faggot" around my friend Bill (who is gay), and I'll use both with someone like Dave (who is neither). I wish that someone could come up with a great derogatory word for white folks, b/c I know I'd use that one the most. That's my new project!!! "Cracker" is weak.

(I also use them in certain situations for adding "effect," e.g. Rho's "Good Nigger Card." Use of the words in some situations seems to be well-tolerated.)

Could I eliminate such words from my vocabulary? Sure. But as I see it, those words are part of the deep end of my vernacular. When I use them, I only use them with certain people or in certain situations where they are highly unlikely to offend. I try to use good common sense when using such words, and I don't see a problem in using them in the manner that I do.

Now then, I hope this thread doesn't get retarded. :)

Nowhere. And "cocksucker" doesn't explicitly say "*male* cocksucker" either. It dosen't have to; the context makes it clear.

But since your epithet really does mean "*heterosexual* ass-pumping anal spelunker"...or even "ass-pumping anal spelunker with no implication of sexual orientation", I'm sure no one could be possibly be offended. Right? *cough*

Of course, the most powerfully-driven homophobes are the ones with connected unresolved issues about their own sexuality, and my personal suspicion is that this is exactly what was up with the fellow I was talking about (*not* dham). His focus on the issue was so constant that it went way beyond "just joking around among friends".

Ah. Well. Again, therein lies the difference. I also like to sometimes whip out the not-so-elegant "insults", such as "big vagina head" :)

Well, we're not allowed to get too bad, so I don't really have any good zingers. :) The kitchen isn't closed off from the dining area, so any insults run the risk of being heard by customers.

Still, I didn't really mean racial slurs or homosexual slurs specifically. It can be simple things, too. Like this one high school kid I work with. He asked one of the waitresses last night why her shoes looked like shit. They were pretty dirty, as they're prone to get when you work in a restaurant. He was just giving her a hard time about it, but she really got offended. He never even noticed the effect he had on her, even though she gave him an indignant tirade response. He just went off to give the next person a hard time.

People need to realize that some people will take them seriously. It's not a matter of the other person being stuck up or "too PC". They just don't get that you're joking, and then they think you're an asshole. I classify it as failed communication. :)

There's this one guy I work with who's seriously homophobe. The fun part is, he simply can not handle it when I hit on him, even though he knows i'm only joking. It's great, because if I ever get tired of him, I just make my advances, and he freaks out and flees the area. It freaks him out so much that he can't even handle pretending. Ohh, what fun I have with him. :)

It's always kinda funny when a bunch of guys are sitting around telling jokes.. usually it starts off with crude sexual jokes or whatnot, but no one seems to be sure whether they can tell that first racist joke. But then once the dam breaks, everyone has theirs to tell.

Then it ends with, "You know, I'm not <I>really</I> racist, I just think the jokes are funny." But for some reason people never feel the need to clarify that they're "not <I>really</I> sexist" after a slew of blonde/chick jokes.

I do. The woman looks at me funny if I don't. :)

i stay away from the racist jokes. i admit i have heard some that i have laughed out loud, and honestly, i feel bad about that. as for the sexist jokes, my wife is the perfect barometer. if i can tell her a sexist joke and she laughs, then i know i dont have to feel guilty. it usually helps though to start with a guy joke. she takes the follow-ups much better.

But, should you feel bad about telling the jokes? Though I don't make jokes about white men, I make fun of them almost incessantly (myself included). Is it wrong to make fun of other stereotypes if I make fun of myself more?

"Other stereotypes"? Are you a stereotype?

The bland assertion that "Of course I'm not a bigot, but..." is no more than an excuse when the "but" is followed by bigoted behavior.

I consider calling someone, for example, a "faggot" (when it's clearly understood to be a deprecation) to be bigoted behavior, even if the deprecation is in jest, and even if the people involved are "good friends" and everybody is "just kidding", because the shared context of the communications is "We both consider class {x} to be despised, and there's nothing wrong with that."

i suppose more than anything else it depends on the company. maybe im oversensitive, but i would be uncomfortable if someone in my group of friends regularly made racist jokes, and i would be vocal about that. not judgemental, but concerned. its perhaps a double standard, but i get away with more sexist-against-women jokes because im equal opportunity about that. but i dont care how many cracker jokes i make, i wouldnt be comfortable making a black joke. perhaps its my upbringing, or hypersensitivity, or whatever. and i do suppose there are jokes arent really racist, but play on ethnic stereotpyes in a playful manner. i would be comfortable with being told jokes like that, but even then i dont know if i could repeat it. its a blurry line, and i prefer not to risk crossing it. but thats just me. and on that note:

why dont single women fart?

because they dont have assholes yet.

~james

If I call someone a faggot, but I was only joking, and I didn't even know they were gay, my intented communication was a playful jest. Someone else's different interpretation of my words doesn't make me a bigot. Judge people by what they meant to say, not by what they actually said.

A person can joke about a class being despised and not really think that they are. Yes, sometimes jokes hurt people's feelings. But that doesn't mean it was intentional.

Your "joke" is based in a value held in common--that calling someone gay is insulting--absent that value the joke would be pointless. Your joke, even though your express concious intent was innocuous and playful, tacitly accepts, endorses and reinforces that value. Whether the person you were speaking to actually is gay or not is beside the point, as is what you conciously *meant* by the words .

My point is that what people say reveals things about how they think...things that often go quite a bit beyond what they *intended* to say. Dan Quayle never *intended* for his speech to reveal to people how confused his thinking was, and yet it did, and people judged him on it.

Obviously this case is a bit more subtle than "What a terrible thing it is to lose your mind". But you can't expect to not get called on the *implications* of your words as well as what you explicitly *say*...just like dham 's "I never said *homosexual* ass-spelunker" .

heheh. That was pretty funny, and <i>I'm</i> an asshole!

Dark Helmet: How many assholes do we have on this ship anyhow?
Crew: YO!
Dark Helmet: I knew it! I'm surrounded by assholes! (Pulls down facemask.) Keep firing assholes!

I think that you're wrong. It is possible to joke about something and not believe a single word of what you said. I guess we'll just have to disagree. :)

But look at it this way. I bet Dave would say that he doesn't think the least bit badly about Homosexuals. And yet you would turn around and disagree with him about himself. I think he knows a little bit more about himself that you do. It's true that words reveal things about people. But why not go directly to the source instead of investigating vague clues?

Eh, I get really uncomfortable when people use "nigger" or "faggot" seriously. Really really uncomfortable. That kind of intolerance is not something I'm in line with.

But... as far as words go, they're just words. I think "faggot" sounds funny. I personally actually use "fag", and only because it strings together really well with other words - I'll call someone "faggy mcfag fag" or something. I truly have no problem with homosexuals at all - and, as I've said before (but not here), I think everyone is a bit bisexual. Some more than others, but I think it's there in everyone. So yeah. I definitely don't have any problems with people different than I. Some words just make for better times.

Because firstly there's nothing vague about it at all, but more importatly everyone has a vested interest in denying that their behavior reflects and reinforces prejudice...as dham has proceeded to do. His protest that "words are just words" is feeble. All speech made up of words, and words have meanings, explicit and implicit. The sixties classic denial "Some of my best friends are {group}" is still very much alive forty years later.

Have you ever heard the archaic expression "nigger rig", for example? It refers to a design or scheme that is lazy, sloppy or unreliable. It implicitly calls black people lazy and careless every time it is used. If I say "The program is a real nigger-rig", my explicit surface meaning is something like "This program is a kludge.", but I send a secondary implicit message that says "At some level, I believe black people as a group are lazy and unreliable". Again, there's nothing vague here.

Calling people "faggots" as a joking insult (there's no other reason to do it if you're not serious, which dham says he'd never do) is very much along the same lines. If using the word is an insult, even in play, the word is derrogatory. Every time the word is used in this way, the idea underlying it is validated and reinforced. among the speaker and his audience.

<i> edit to fix typos </i>

My brothers and I always called each other "fag" when we were little. I had no earthly clue what it meant at first; I just heard it used once and thought it was a pretty cool-sounding insult. "You fag". And once I knew what it meant, I/we still kept using it because we were used to it. This continued all the way through high school.

Then, when I went away to college, a gay guy became one of my close circle of friends, and it became very difficult to remember not to use that word. I had to make a conscious effort, especially because he was the only other guy in this circle of friends, and I was used to saying it around the guys.

This one time in particular, we were playing racquetball, and he beat me on one considerably hard-fought point. I slipped and uttered "you fag!" It was under my breath, but I think he probably heard me. I still feel really stupid about that.

I'm not sure they're insults. It's really just to say something silly. The other day I exclaimed to my sister "You're a fat!"

What is a fat? I dunno. But it was pretty damn funny. Nothing against fat people. Nothing wrong with being fat. But I said "You're a fat!" anyway.

Also, I think you're trying to analyze something you've obviously never really taken part in or understood. I call my friends "boner" too. Does that mean I am prejudiced against boners?

Get real. People are just having a fun time with some words. Just like there is nothing morally wrong with saying "fuck", there is nothing morally wrong with saying "fag". The words themselves are just combinations of letters, and I submit that how you use them and what you mean are the things that make a difference.

Psychological studies suggest otherwise.It probably wasn't fair of juju to name Dave as an example to make his argument, which has a false hypothesis. The psychological study linked in this post applies to people generally, not to any individual, and I'd emphasize that this post doesn't reference any named person, but takes issue with juju's argument.

Juju's hypothesis that people know a bit more about themselves than can be learned from objective observation of their behavior is fuzzy logic, although he might be less likely to realize this than others. ;)

I agree with the quoted material. However, we're specifically talking about how dave feels about homosexuals, and what specific meaning he ascribes to certain words. Those aren't abilities, it's how he feels. We can nearly always be certain of how we feel about certain issues (even if that feeling is indifference).

Please use your own words.

Well, alllow me to clear up your uncertainty.
I think everyone in this thread has either participated in this sort of thing or at least been present when it was going on. It's far too common for you to make that claim.
No, there is no group of people in our society I'm aware of known as "boners". ...are you blowing smoke here or do you really not understand the point?
Those things clearly matter, but there are *other* things that are important too--you can't just dismiss them out-of-hand.

There is no issue here that "fuck" or "fag" or "nigger" or any other word in isolation is a good or bad word. But <i>how you choose to say what you say conveys meanings and reveals things about you *besides* what you intend it to, and has effects far beyond what you're concious of at the time you speak..</I>

The point I've been trying to make is not a moral one; each of us decides for themselves what is moral or immoral. But for you to claim that these issues simply don't exist because "we was just funnin" or "these are just harmless words made up of innocuous letters" misses that point profoundly. The issues don't exist at the level of words, syllables or letters, rather than focusing on minutia, look *up* the chain of abstraction where meaning, intent and social effects reside.

Unless it's just that you don't like what you see when you do...

Yet you get, to quote, 'really uncomfortable' around people saying certain words, and meaning them?

Logical fallacy. You can use a word any way you want, but it has an intrinsic meaning. You can attach any additional meaning you want in your own soci-etymological subset of existence, but - if you are even remotely aware what its genuine meaning is - you cannot ever truly discard what it stands for.

There is a difference between someone saying 'I don't like black people.' and saying 'I don't like niggers.' The second one establishes a psychological link between a derogatory term and a racial group. The legitimization of a pejorative term based on sexual preference or racial characteristics (or other fairly unchangeable facts of existence, something that makes the term 'preference' in itself somewhat ambiguous) through harmless joking around means that its impact on non-affected groups is blunted.

To put it simply: if many white people started using the term 'nigger' in perfectly 'harmless' and 'joking' ways, white people as a societal group would stop thinking that it's all that horrible and dreadful. Come to think of it, the way some black people have been using 'nigger' amongst themselves has already done that to the white populace to some extent: i.e. the thought process of 'it is being legitimized through use' comes to the fore.

If white people started using that term a lot, black people would still hate it and still resent it. Because it represents hate, fear, bigotry, and oppression.

If something represents a moral and factual evil, such as a word, you can trivialize it, make it banal, take its barbs, blunt it, by using it largely amongst people who aren't directly affected by it. I am aware that there is inter-ethnic and inter-[homo|hetero]sexual usage of slurs such as 'fag' and 'nigger', and there is a considerable debate in the black community as well, whether the usage of 'nigger' by blacks is acceptable and helpful.

The truth is that certain words carry an intrinsic weight with them, and that there are many people out there who are aware of that weight, and who feel hurt by it when they hear it. Trivializing such terms, and making them semi-acceptable creates a situation where people who have a right to feel worried and offended by hearing their usage are being told to 'Get real' and stop acting all sensitive over something that's just joking amongst friends.

I can't speak for Maggie, but I imagine that she probably feels just a tad unhappy at seeing people being completely oblivious of their own ignorance.

Thus we come full circle, answering my question to you in the first paragraph of this message: you get uncomfortable around people using phrases of hatred in earnest because you know what hey mean. And no matter how much joking around with those words you'll ever do, they'll still represent hate and violence to a group of people that you do not belong to. Since you're probably a decent person, you don't like seeing arbitrary hatred and discrimination against certain groups of people. Yet by legitimizing certain terms through using them, you are unwittingly aiding that discrimination.

Because 'fag' is a humorous insult used by people around the US, right now. Who may not even think about homosexuality when calling someone else a 'fag'. But they do it nonetheless. And 'fag' becomes more and more well-known and accepted as an insult.

Right down when you'll hear someone on a sitcom in 25 years' time calling someone a 'fag', immediately followed up by canned, taped laughter.

Hey, what's the big deal about. It's just joking amongst friends, I'm not a homophobe, dude. Just back off and go annoy someone else with that PC crap.

Jeez. What a fag.

X.

Words do not have 'intrinsic' meaning. They are phonemes, and they only have the meaning that you personally ascribe to them. A word that means one thing to Maggie could mean something completely different to Dave.

Alas, I have to go to work or i'll be late. :] I'm sure what Maggie is saying happens does happen. But i'm saying there are exceptions.

It's pointless to debate with people who insist that their words have unique and special meanings known only to themselves, which meanings may differ from the meanings of those communications generally understood by the society in which they try desperately to be understood.

dhamsaic argues that his words mean what he intends them to mean, regardless of what those words are understood to mean by others in this society. This argument shows a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of language as a communications medium. Otherwise, there would be no need for a common language, everyone being content that he knows what he's talking about, and that's all that matters, while everyone else is aware that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

So, don't get me wrong when I say you sound like a fag, yourself, 'cause I'm thinking of a cigarette ... and you're just blowin' smoke.

Nonsense. The reason why 'fag' and 'nigger' are used as 'joking' insults is because their universal meaning in the US-English language is well known; thus their intrinsic meaning. In Britain, fag is used much more rarely to describe homosexuals, and its intrinsic meanings there are usually different, usually referring to cigarettes or in more archaic terms certain Independent School pupils.

Universality of meaning results in words' intrinsic nature. You can sit there all day and claim that 'nigger' means a different thing to black rappers than it does to middle-class white suburbanites, but its core value is that of an insulting term ascribed to black people.

That is why 'fag' and 'nigger' are used as insults; Maggie and Dave may be thinking of different things when they use those words, but they use them in a pejorative way (arguably Maggie may not use them in pejorative ways, merely thinking of their meaning in that way). Because their intrinsic meaning is pejorative. This is what the whole brouhaha was about when quite a lot of educated Afro-Americans started being appalled by the use of 'nigger' by younger blacks in a non-pejorative manner, giving it 'new meaning.' That's the whole point of slang terms, especially relating to insults: the word is the meaning.

Nigrum.. negro.. negroe.. nigger.

Re-read the bit in my last message about people attaching meaning to words, and in what context that was written; please don't quote out of context.

X.

I think the difference here is that when I'm with people I know and I say those words (or they say them to me), the meaning is understood.. Obviously I wouldn't go around tossing them out in conversation around people I wasn't familiar with - walking through Baltimore saying "What's up, nigga?" isn't a good idea, for example. I understand the meaning they have.

Coming back to that, words are just words. They are combinations of letters. Of course meanings are attached to them. We've already been over that. "Fag" in Britain generally means "cigarette". "Fag" in the United States generally is a derogatory calling for a male homosexual. "Fag" in one of my tight groups of friends really has no meaning - it's just something we toss around (and like I said, generally in a completely bogus sense - "McFag", one might call another). What you've said is that in different places, words mean different things. Why can't this be any different in a circle of friends?

Now, when someone says "I hate niggers" or "Fuckin' chinks piss me off" and they're very obviously not joking, then it can be assumed that they are indeed meaning they dislike persons of the African persuasion and are generally aggravated by the Chinese. That is indeed pretty sad - I have friends of all colors (well, maybe not ALL, but damn close), including brown and yellow. I think it's sad that people have been indoctrinated with such hate. And yeah, it's possible that they could have picked it up by hearing their older brother joke with friends about "niggas". Which is why I'm responsible with my wording out in public, and I only use my choice phrases in my varous circles of friends.

Anyway, I think this is pretty much a dead topic as far as I'm concerned. We can just agree to disagree, because Maggie & Xug aren't going to see any validity to my argument and whatever they say isn't going to change the fact that what I'm doing, with my friends, isn't hurting anyone else.

Just got back from work. :] Sorry if I quoted you out of context. I was in a real hurry when I wrote that last post. I promise i'll read over all this more carefully later on tonight. I do see your point, though. Right now I have to go wash the stink of pizza off me.

It's a common ritual among young immature males to attack the masculinity of their male peer group, often in jest, as a way of asserting their own masculinity to the group, especially when there could be some uncertainty or doubt.

Often, to verbalize derisive epithets toward friendly targets is a safe way of asserting one's masculinity, lest there be any doubt. Mature heterosexual males seldom exhibit this behavior, which is common among immature teenage boys.

Tyson, wiith his girlish voice and speech impediment, is an insecure male who feels the need to speak out against homosexual males and make aggressive sexual attacks on females to assert his masculinity, which might be questionable.

It may be that Dave's personal preference for exceptionally long hair has lead strangers to question his masculinity when he's out with the guys, so it's a natural defense mechanism to verbalize homophobic expressions so as to make it clear that he's not one of them ... not that there's anything wrong with them, he'd assure us ... just don't mistake him for one of them.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, Nic. The one where I mentioned that I think we're all at least a little bisexual. Including myself. I have no problem admitting that, and I'd have no problem admitting if I were homosexual. If you're homosexual, you're homosexual. Big fuckin' deal. I'm not, and no one's ever really questioned it. My long hair is loved by the ladies and I think most guys know that. Nice hair is something you can have in common with a woman - at least that gets her talking.

I have no need to defend my sexuality, but if I did, perhaps your theory would hold water. However, what about my race? Is my ethnicity being questioned? Maybe that's why I call Andrea (who is half Chinese) "chinky" or "slitty eyed" (both joking, of course). Yes, that must be it.

Or maybe, just maybe, LIKE I PREVIOUSLY SAID, we're just picking names and calling them in good fun.

You're making much ado about nothing. One of my very best friends is a lesbian. Big fuckin' deal. She knows how I mean what I say, so I don't have to watch myself around her. You've obviously never been a part of it, and that's okay - just don't pretend to know what's going on with others. I don't judge you or Maggie or Xug or anyone else here, and you've no right to judge me.

I should also make it clear that my usage of "fag" is generally toward girls. I call my guy friends "slut" and "beeotch" and "vagina head" and fun things like that. So the verbalizing "homophobic expressions" argument falls kinda flat.

Well, if it's workin' for ya. Don't change a thing. I'm not accustomed to using racial slurs as terms of endearment for my friends, but it might work for some people. Maybe its a bonding thing, where their tolerance for your slurs confirms you're OK, since they would be offended if a stranger called them the same names. There's definitely something goin' on aside from the language. I'm not judging you. Just trying to understand the behavior.

Then how about asking questions instead of assuming?

Nic, don't ya hate it when you try to bait someone and they just don't bite?

I went over this again, and I don't think I quoted you out of context. I think that the above text is what this is all about. You seem to be saying that society as a whole grants meaning to words, and i'm saying that individuals give meanings to words.

Now, it's ideal that we all give the same meanings to our words. If we didn't all use the same dictionary, then there would be huge miscommunications between people. I'm saying that does happen, though.

Anyway, I agree with Dave that we'll have to agree to disagree. All we seem to be doing is reiterating our points over and over again. :)

I agree that giving words different meanings causes all kinds of chaos and miscommunication. Unfortunately, people do it anyway. I'm not saying it's a good thing.. just that it happens, and that people should be aware of this so that we can all communicate better.

It's interesting. According to their line of reasoning, even though you had no idea what a homosexual was, by using the word 'fag', you already had an opinion about them! It's pretty cool to hate a group you've never heard of before.

The Informer
 

Be an informed informer ... read The Citizens' Informer.

Nic, I will never click on any of your links.

Why? Did some words in that link offend you?

I'm sure the Council of Conservative Citizens don't mean nothin' by it. They're jus' been patriotic Amercuns.

As for me, I'm certainly not racist, bigoted or homophobic so if you can't take a joke, just ...

Surely everyone should follow the example of others and just use whatever words they like, just kidding around, without regard to the impact they have on others.

I think I've made my point.

I clicked it and it was blocked by the SAICnet filter's Hate category. Yay!

I've been essentially offline for a few days, so I'll add one last riposte, in the form of several posts since I'm quoteing more than one poster.

Dham, your opinion that "I'm not hurting anyone else" is indeed an opinion, not a fact, and (once again), calling it one doesn't make it so. If you really believe "words are just words", I think you need to read some Orwell. Or maybe read it again.

I *hear* your argument, but "words are just words" and "what I say doesn't matter except to those who hear my words" strike me as incredibly naive views -- so much so that when I hear them comming from someone like yourself who is so sophisticated in most other ways that I'm not sure what to think . We can close the topic for now; wouldn't want to trouble your rationalizations with any further cognitive dissonance.

Words shape thought as much as thought shapes words--sometimes more. What you say to your friends in private has implications far beyond the instant conversation.

<i>edits for typos</i>

Oh, but "it's just words".

I have to agree that it's pretty amazing to convey to a child the value that he's supposed to hate a group of people <i>even before he knows who they are</i>. This has the advantage of precluding the danger that he might form his own opinion based on something as trivial or unreliable as personal expereince. Prejudice is just such a marvelous mechanism for sharing the accumulated wisdom of the group.

I know, which is why I consider it important to be responsible with what I say. You would not, for example, hear me speaking anything like that to impressionable minds. I understand (and agree with!) most of what you're saying; all I'm saying is that it does not fit the position that I am currently in. I don't at all mind differing opinions, I simply get tired of re-iterating. But it occurs to me that you probably don't understand exactly how it goes on here, and that is probably my fault as I have explained it poorly.

Some of my better friends growing up were African American. I can't say that I still keep in touch with those people, but at that young age, I was taught tolerance, both by my parents being tolerant and by being neighbors with "colored" people (as my grandmother would refer to them). I'd hang out with Kedrick and play Atari and not think anything of it - he's just a little darker than me. Big deal.

The same is true of my sister, of course - though I don't think she played much Atari. Anyway, she grew up in the same environment and tolerance was something that just <b>was</b>. There were no words like "nigger" or "fag" in our vocabulary - they had no meaning to us.

When we moved in with some cretins that were our cousins (long long long story), we picked up these words. Dad had told me that "nigger" was a bad word and I shouldn't say it; until about a year ago, I couldn't even utter the word. "Fag", on the other hand, was picked up from my foul cousin. I didn't know what it meant - I just knew that it sounded kinda funny. When I found out what it meant, I was pretty opposed to its usage - my sister called me "fag" one day and I did all I could to get her to stop using it (including tattling - which was pretty ineffective). Eventually, we both came to know many gays online (I will use "gays" because it sounds so much less retarded than "homosexuals", which seems to have grown into an insult nowadays). Thus was born a true tolerance (neigh, acceptance) of gays. Like I said, one of my very best friends is a lesbian. One of Jen's friends is a lesbian too. I seriously don't think I could care less about the sexuality of my friends. It just doesn't even register as important. Anyway, we were never intolerant before, but we hadn't really had a chance to make up an opinion. Now we had.

So when I'm with my sister, who I know understands how I mean what I say (we don't even talk in full sentences - a few words and the other can complete it mentally), I use whatever word I want. One time we were making up "Racist Movie Titles" and I was coming up with stuff like "Ajapalypse Now" and "Nigley Down Under" - we were laughing our asses off. She knows that I have nothing against those of Japanese origin, nor do I secretly resent African Americans. The titles just sounded funny, and that's why they were said. I wasn't legitimizing the use of those words, because she understood what the whole thing was about. I'd never use racist or sexist slurs to seriouly describe <b>anyone</b>, though I will jokingly use them <b>around people who understand</b> from time to time.

Another case: Andrea. Andrea is half Chinese, half American - or, as I like to say, "Half Chinese, Half Redneck". She knows that I love her, so I don't have to worry about calling her "slitty-eyed" (she laughs at that) or saying I can't read a chinese package of Smints because "it's written in Chink!" It's <b>funny</b> because we understand that there's no real racist sentiment there. If I didn't like Chinese people, one of my very best friends of over six years (realize that's over 1/4 my life) wouldn't be half Chinese. I'd have some Aryan-ideal friend instead.

Now... one time my dad was relating a story - he and his brother were in a movie theater or something in Maine and he realized that the people there thought they were "fags" - his word. I got that awful feeling in your stomach that you get when a relationship ends or someone hurts you a lot. I couldn't believe my Dad just said that. I know he didn't mean any harm by it, but it <b>deeply</b> offended me that someone would use that word seriously.

Did he get it from friends joking? Did he get it from intolerant friends? I don't know... but know that I would never want to be responsible for someone using that word in a serious manner - and <b>that</b> is why I'm always careful when using it. Like I said, I use "fag" mostly on my sister or Paul - because they <b>understand</b> that to me, it doesn't mean "homosexual male", <b>never has</b> and <b>never will</b>. I say "nigger" (when I'm not trying to make a point here on the Cellar) only around people that <b>understand</b> that to me, it doesn't mean "person of African origin", <b>never has</b> and <b>never will</b>. I understand that it means that to some people, but not to me. I also understand that I have the power to mold more impressionable people, and I have the responsibility <b>not</b> to do so with hateful language. I also understand that I could unlock a sort of "unawakened" hate in people if I used such words around people that didn't understand how I was using them and that I didn't mean anything negative. Someone might hear it and go "oh, it's cool, he's down with me hating niggers" and now I'm responsible for one more mislead person thinking it's acceptable to hate others based upon something they can't control. I understand all that, and I'm careful not to be a cause of it.

I really do understand what you're saying, and I really do agree with it. I'm not even saying it doesn't apply to me - it does. But I've engineered myself a situation where I can speak freely with a select few and not worry about that. I hope that this post has mostly clarified that.

All minds are impressionable. And they're not divided into neat little compartments by impervious walls.
You can't honestly claim to have laundered the word of that meaning, either in your friend's minds or your own. Examine what you say you mean by that word (that special personal meaning that has nothing to do with "homosexual male"), and then why you use that word to express that meaning. "It sounds funny" isn't a complete explanation, it shirks off *why* you think that word "sounds funny", and the dissonance behind it that provokes you to laughter.
"I'm not saying it doesn't apply to me...execpt in this little pocket of immunity I've created for myself." Well, congratulations on yout true tolerance and self-percieved immunity. But I think you're kidding yourself. Your "some of my best friends" speech fails to convince, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Gay people themselves aren't immune from homophobia; internalized homophobia is one of the biggest emotional challenges facing many queer folk today. If <b>they</b> struggle with it, how can you claim to be free of it just because you're wearing a "some of my best friends.." button?

If I've ever seen flawed reasoning, that's it. Yes, because it's true of someone else, it must be true of me. Of course. Just like the black women that only date white men because they "hate niggers". I must also be a racist, because if some black people don't like black people, how can <b>I</b> like black people?

I'm not saying "some of my best friends". I'm saying one of my very closest friends. I'm not trying to hide behind some stupid cliché. I'm using it as an example - if I harbor strong resentment against homosexuals (as evidenced by my usage of the word "fag"), how does one explain my being good friends with one? And I'm not talking some cheap undervalued "good friends" BS that kids use all the time. I'm talking "you've been an integral part of my life for over six years and I love you and I'd die for you and if you ever need me to come pick you up at 3 in the morning because you're locked out of your car, well, it might be a 4 hour drive but I'll be there" good friends.

The truth is, I seriously don't see sexuality when I look at a person. I don't see color. <b>I don't care</b>. It's not at the bottom of my list of "things that matter in a person" - it's not even <b>on</b> the list. I don't give a shit! I don't care if you're fat, ugly, pale, brown, gay, short, disabled... I just don't care. All I'm into as far as friends go is their mind. I don't see the body as a part of a person - I see it as a tool for moving the brain around and protecting it and getting things done. Why? I dunno. Probably because I've been overweight most of my life and I've come to realize, through people not liking me <b>because I'm a pudgy bastard</b>, that the body doesn't really matter. Truly does not matter. It's the mind that counts. Obviously I am physically attracted to some things and not to others, but in platonic relationships, physicality is not a factor. I've seen your pictures, Maggie. I think you're ugly. Guess what? <b>I don't give a shit!</b> I don't care that you used to be a man and now you're not. It simply does not matter to me, and it doesn't affect my opinion of you. I wouldn't like you more if you were a hot 30-something housewife and I don't like you less 'cause you're not. Your mind is all that I am interested in. I like you at times and I dislike you at others, and any feelings I have about you are a direct result of what you say, not what you look like or who you fuck. The same is true of everyone else. My sister needs to lose some weight. So does Andrea. I don't care. <b>I just don't care</b>.

I'm not sure if I can make it any more clear for you. You are simply not qualified to judge whether or not a person's color or sexuality matter to me. I am quick to admit my own flaws and have been very introspective my entire life - all of my friends will tell you this. I am not perfect and I do not have all the answers, but I have spent more time with myself than you have and, contrary to what Nic might tell you, I know myself better than you do. I know what matters to me in other people and I know what doesn't. Wanna know what I hate? Nutball religious wackos. Yeah. I'm guilty as charged for giving a shit about a person's religion, but I couldn't give a fuck less about sexuality or race. And no matter what <b>you</b> say, dem's the facts.

[ Edit - added something I thought I had typed but obviously didn't. ]

I don't think we'll ever agree on this. But it has been really interesting talking about it.

I see this as a wake-up call to all those who like to trash-talk: <b>Be careful who you do it around.</b> Some people have been hurt too badly in the past and will never understand that you didn't mean anything.