93 Year Old WWII Vet Freezes to Death at Home...
 

after his electric use was limited by the power company due to an unpaid balance. How sick is this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090126/...llYXItb2xkZg--

Sadly, this is the only answer. If he was not in a position to come to an agreement with the electricity people - and older people often aren't, having been raised to obey orders and respect authority - then there are no warning signs for the electricity company.

They cannot know whether the user lives with children and grandchildren who are capable of dealing with this, whether he is short of funds and refusing to pay, whether he needs social care. They are a business after all.

I do feel this is very sad (we have cold weather payments in this country to help the 60+ and higher for the 80+) but it could happen here as well. I'd like to think that our OAPs would at least have daily carers that they could speak to, but tbh my Grandad often only mentions things in passing. Like to Mum - there's wires coming out of my bedside lamp. X (carer) mentioned it the other week. Mum went off her nut - why didn't you TELL me?! You could have been electrocuted! And straight off to Argos to get a new one, all the while blaming herself for not checking every single appliance in Grandad's bungalow on her daily visits.

I like this part: "[Bay City Manager Robert Belleman]... said Bay City Electric Light & Power's policies will be reviewed, but he didn't believe the city did anything wrong."


Maybe we need to rethink our definition of wrong and right.

It should be against the law for a utility to pull the plug on a customer for unpaid bills if the temperature is below freezing. Cut him off in the spring.

I agree. Can't a little humanity remain, even if it is business?

Our paper reported that those that found him also found his bill on the kitchen table with a large sum of cash paper clipped to it, so it seems he was going to pay it.

I wonder if he served with Patton's army when it went through Germany in the winter, he might have believed he was reliving that experience.

This article also quotes the medical person doing the autopsy as saying he died a slow and painful death but I think I've read that death by freezing is not so painful as you just slip off into a sort of coma.

I agree, regardless of what he did in the 40's.

Why?

it is a business designed to make money. While this outcome is terrible, the reality is it is not the company's responsibility to provide anything for free. The man, family, friends, or neighbors should have been able to spot a problem and take the proper steps to prevent this.

Just...humanity?

Then where should we set the line cutoff line for those unable to pay and those unwilling to pay?

I could be mistaken, but I believe PA has a law against utilities being shut off if there are children in the home. I know it doesn't apply in this case and it's a different state, but the arguement can be made...if so for children, why not for seniors. He was 93 for Christ's sake!

Edit: I believe the PA law is if there are children in the home AND it is winter. Should have been more clear.

It could be a problem of population density and city living as well. I know in places that you tend to live close together more people are apt to just mind their own business, and most want you to stay out of it. And then there is the assumption that someone else is always doing the thing that you considered doing yourself, like checking in on the old guy from time to time.

Do you really think there was some guy sitting at the power company laughing with his buddies and saying, "Watch this poor old bastard. He made it to 93 but I got him now."?

If noone had spoken with the company to raise flags then what are they supposed to do?

***
Mind you I'm not arguing in favor of freezing 93 year olds, but the knee jerk reaction towards the evil company is a little overdone.

Found this in a news story from KDKA...

Under the law, utilities can shut off your service for failing to pay your bills -- even in the winter.

There are exceptions -- for medical reasons, of course -- and here's a big exception.

From December 1st until March 31st, utilities cannot be shut off if your family income is below 250 percent of poverty.

That means for a couple, utilities cannot be shut off if family income is below $35,000 a year. For a family of four, there can be no winter shut-off if your family income is below $53,000.

I think if the electric company is going to take such a drastic measure in the middle of winter, they should damn well know who is in that house. That's all.

35K cannot be 250% below poverty. And 53K sure the hell is not.

Not 250% below. 250% of.

Look at his date of birth (in their records)? Some sort of logic loop like:
if ($Customer_Age > 70)
{
$action->Followup($family);
}

Now, really, was that so hard?

Utilities are not your standard business. They get special treatment. They have their wires all over land that they do not own. They are permitted a virtual monopoly to provide power (or gas) in a given area. They get that special treatment because they provide a critical service.

It should be part of the deal they have with us that they follow certain rules before turning off service for lack of payment.

If you are a landlord (and you know this) you have to follow certain rules before you evict someone. Why should it be any different for turning off someone's power when it's below freezing?

How many months can you go without being shut off up there? In Arizona you can go a bit over 90 days before they put the warning tag on your door. The bright red 5 x 11 tag says "Please contact us to make arrangements and avoid loss of power". If there is no contact within a week the power is cut. It isn't a surprise when things get shut off.

When I've gotten shutoff notices from PECO/Exelon, they always have in big print the number you should call right away if there is anyone infirm in the house.

There's a lot we still would need to know. Did he have family close by? If so, why were they not in contact with him or otherwise helping him? Was he suffering from dementia? If so, that would explain his non-response to any shut-off notices.

I agree dmg, but we're talking about one really unfortunate, bizarre example. if it wasn't rare, it wouldn't be worthy of a news story. people fall through the cracks sometimes. sad, but true. my point was simply that the company is not responsible for doing anything more than they did unless they were contacted for assistance.

And my point is that they should be. If they followed the rules and this guy ended up dead, then the rules are bad and need to change.

The utility didn't shut off the power, they installed a current limiter, which restricts the amount of power he could use.

one man fell through the cracks and that means a whole company needs to change the way it does business?

A limiter which shuts off the power if he surpasses the "allowed" useage of power. What is allowed? One space heater? Two space heaters? Hell, he could have been asleep when the limiter killed the power in turn killing him.

I agree that it is a bizarre example and one that fell through the cracks. However, how many times have we heard the phrase "if one innocent person is wrongly executed, it's one too many."? Now...I AM NOT saying he was executed by the electric company!!! I am just making the comparison...one slipping through the cracks like this is one too many. Especially someone this age. It's just terrible.

You're barking up the wrong tree with me on that one. ;)

You can't be serious. We are about to enter the largest age of what is good for the greater masses and not for the individual. Those on the margins of the bell curve will be left off by design. Better get use to it.

It was just an example...I'm pro-capital punishment myself.

I hope I'm not on the margain. Although I do feel margainilized much of the time. :neutral:

If he had a working telephone then he need not have gone without power. The media loves this type of story, and they would have kept the power on. It is a sad story but I'm not going to condemn the utility company unless more damning evidence comes to light. And btw, if I cannot afford electricity, please freeze me in winter rather than cutting off the A/C in summer, okay? Thank you!

I wouldn't be surprised if this article had a lot of spin to it since a lot of information was left out. There should have been some contact between the power company and the WWII Vet though, that was a very large mistake (unless that was not included in the article).

TheMercenary, from the picture it looks like he lived in a low density neighborhood. But that could mean anything and that "neighbors should watch neighbors" is a bad argument.

What if we had to chop firewood to survive?

I didn't say that they should and that was not an arguement I made. What I said was:

My wording was bad. I was commenting on the article making the "neighbors should watch neighbors" argument. The only thing I meant to reference to you is the low density neighborhood part.

And what if he was a very grumpy, irritating and disagreeable old man? If a person has no one in their lives to turn to in times of trouble, chances are they fit the above description.

Maybe he gave the utilities company a serve when he got his overdue notice? Maybe he has a history of not paying bills?

If the utilities company followed normal proceedures, then they've done nothing wrong, particularly if this is an isolated case, which it appears to be. Why blame big business for doing what's considered normal? That being, user pays policies. If you don't pay, you don't get.

And while we discussed this, how many homeless Americans froze to death on the streets? Perhaps even War vets? Who "should" have looked out for them?

Obama!

but they aren't more important than the 93yo, so how come obama is not responsible for him too?

Who said he wasn't?



To be serous. In the way that our social structure is set up, very nomadic and not very communal, it becomes very tough for people who can not look out for themselves. In other cultures, this person would be living with family and try to find of a homeless Somali.

Point is that our way of life has both positive and negative aspects. This is one negative aspect and when we live in a society that does not have many safety nets for the old and alone, incidents like this will happen. It is sad and I believe we should work to avoid these situations on a reasonable level, but unless we decide to change our culture altogether, events like these are inevitable.

Maybe the dude didn't have anybody to look after him because he was a prick.

Come on, it's possible

Yes, but do pricks deserve to freeze to death? :neutral:

eh?

I ran this through babelfish and it didn't make sense in any language.

It is extremely rare to find a homeless Somali because mosques will provide shelter for any Muslim. Our culture doesn't provide as much shelter for the homeless as different cultures do (in reasonable amounts of course). Since our culture differs in this way, one negative aspect is that people can easily get left out in the cold.

The point is that very few resources go into taking care of the homeless because of how our culture works. The same can be said about 93 year old men, especially if they are old pricks.

What do you mean by "our culture"? Do we have only one?

I'm still trying to figure out why we should take care of the homeless ...

Pennsylvania has an emergency heating assistance program for low income individuals and families (LiHEAP), and also won't shut you off when there's code blue or code red type weather going on.

This.

Yes they are businesses, but they are also amongst the providers of the country's basic infrastructure. They take on the rewards as they take on the responsiblity.

I just thought someone should note that it was not a business that killed this man, it is a municipal operation.

oh, ok, thanks, goddit now. More punctuation preferred :lol: (not that I would have got it then either, but I at least wouldn't have wasting time wondering how a person living with their family would be helped by a finding a homeless Somali.... :rolleyes:)

I was under the impression the man was killed by extremely cold temperatures... but I get your point.

I do not mean to say American culture is completely homogeneous, which is obviously false but I am generalizing. We as Americans do share a general culture, but that doesn't mean their aren't variations or subcultures between them. "Rural culture", "suburban culture", and even "urban culture", while different, share the same basic values as opposed to Arab culture, where the value system is much different.

It would be like commenting on the American political spectrum. Yes, there are Republicans and Democrats and they do have their differences but those differences are very minisual compared to Fuedalism, Fascism, Monarchism, or communism. Both Democrats and Republicans stem from the same basic values while monarchy and fuedalism stemed from different values, hence why they are so different and would never be accepted by Americans.

Thank you Mister Knowitall. ;)

Why would it matter if they were vets?

I am so sorry to the dudes family but that was a :lol2:

No comparison. Really, I hear this all the time. It does not matter if it is economics, military issues, politics, etc. There is no way you can compare our society to many of the European and Middle Eastern societies because of many things, and I know that you know all of this. If you are going to compare our society to any other you could use China and Russia based on diversity and demographics alone, but even those cannot compare. I find it funny how people want to compare our healthcare system to those that are about 1/50th the size of ours as one example. The list is endless of poor comparisons. If anyone doubts this hit me up with your best example.

Merc, by your reasoning then no other culture or economy or blah blah can be compared to that of the US considering the situation.

I think it's naive to think that lessons can't be learned from others who are perhaps not so powerful or established or wealthy.

My point is the comparisons are not so easily transferable. That is a fact.

I'm more disturbed that the population of the world doubled in just 40 years.

Well, I don't think comparisons are meant to be an exact science. When making a comparison, you acknowledge both the similarities and the differences in order to reach some conclusive thought.

For example, many people have compared my extended family to that of an Italian or Greek family structure, but we're definitely not the same. For one thing, we speak a different language and eat different food, and there's not the same strict heirarchy, and we have a different religion, and a different culture, but there are definitely some striking similarities in that we all know our second and third cousins and associate regularly, and in general, any minor feuds are patched up pretty quickly for the sake of 'the family' at large in order to create a good environment/example for the kids. We've stuck together when lots of other families are becoming very nuclear.