Can you beat Verizon?
 

OK, I've been on hold for 12 min to ask Verizon a question, but I bet I can get the answer here faster.

My wife just ordered FIOS internet with the phone bundled with it. No TV. Didn't know you could do that.

Will our old phones and existing copper phone lines within the house work with this service, or do I have to buy new VIOP phones and pull CAT5 cables all through the house to get phones to work?

The link they gave her for getting started talked about having an available 3 prong outlet by the new service entrance, and they say they won't snake wiring through the house, but they don't talk about if my old phones will work.

Can you beat Verizon with an answer?

Crap. They answered it. But it took them like 16 minutes.

What's the answer?

My old phones will work. They somehow convert the fiber optic signals back into regular old phone signals inside my house. All I have to provide is an available un-switched grounded outlet near the service entrance.

Sorry, it hasn't been 18 minutes yet.

They install these three things and then hook everything up to them. Somehow. But I was worried when I saw that they wouldn't fish CAT5 wiring. Who said anything about CAT5 wiring? That must mean if you have multiple PCs throughout the house and you want to network them.

It's the same method they use for phone-over-cable; they just unhook your external phone connection from the LEC and connect it to the modem, which then plugs either into the cable network (in my case) or the FIOS network.
Don't bother fishing cat-5; go for gigabit wireless (802.11n). Much less hassle.

ETA: sorry I didn't see your post in time! I certainly could have answered it.

It will all work and you will love it.

Question:

Why not the TV? That's the main selling point of fiber optic/FIOS. I'd love to get FIOS for the TV offerings but it hasn't made it out this far yet.

The graphic said they will install CAT5. But if you do network your computers together, I'd go with CAT6. I just ditched my wireless 802.11g wireless network for a hardwire network. I had an Apple Airport, which is good hardware, but it skips too much and I worry about security. I can see all my neighbors SSIDs so I know they can see mine. But, lucky for me, the previous owner installed network jacks all over the house so I really don't need wireless.

Can you beat Verizon? No, but I would sure like to.

They tore up our neighborhood for it over a year ago and we still do not have FIOS available.

Yes, Mr. Glatt. We are thanking you for your call and would like for you to know that we would certainly be happy for you to beat us, and we appreciate your patience in this matter. Would you like to be beating us with a stick or just with your hands?

.....or better still, why not upgrade the beating to our full service GPS package with the special oojimaflip phone, which is almost free after a mail-in rebate...

I don't know, but let me get a baseball bat... I'll certainly give it the old college try.

Smarter is to prepare for their installation. All networking, TV cable, phone, etc must enter and meet at a common service entrance with the fuse box. Simply prewire your Cat5 or Cat 6 cables to that point or where the WiFi router will be located (see below). If necessary, reroute all existing phones and cable TV wires to that point.

Install an AC receptacle on the box best with its own circuit breaker. Reserve an area on the wall to mount those Verizon boxes. Locate someplace (ie in the basement ceiling in the joists) where the WiFi router can have a mostly unobstructed transmission to the rest of the house. If not adjacent to the breaker box, then wire an AC receptacle for the Wifi that connects to the same above dedicated circuit.

Best is to install a separate duplex plug so that an existing receptacle is still available for other temporary equipment use such as a light to see and service the breaker box. And again, dedicated (separate) breaker because the system is essential for human safety.

Then get Fios installed.

FIOS is what AT&T wanted to do when was run by incompetent bean counters who basically sold off $130billion of defective networks to Comcast for only $75billion. Yes, AT&T executives were that dumb.

FIOS is not about TV. Fios is about any and all communication on one connection. Verizon refused to do it until innovation forced their hand. 3rd generation cell phones meant Verizon was completely out of the landline business. Copper wire terminated in circuit switched computers could not do what cell phones (ie Qualcomm) were about to do.

Once FIOS is installed, then you and future homeowners can never have copper wire service again. Appreciate the commitment.

Verizon and Comcast are creating a monopoly. They got the 1996 Communication Act revised so that nobody else can use their wires. To make sure no other company (ie Cavalier Telephone) can use their existing copper, they creates a rule that copper wire must be terminated permanently when FIOS is installed. It is the classic Coke and Pepsi monopoly so that prices are all but guarantees high and make it too expensive for competitors who might arise with superior service.

I get bundled service from Cox (TV/Internet/Landline) and am very happy with it. And Cox is wiring the area for digital so they seem to be staying one step ahead of Verizon. But I do realize that this area is probably an exception to the rule.

I don't know enough about the market to evaluate the idea that Comcast and Verizon have enough of an advantage to create a monopoly/oligopoly whatever but I have to wonder how long an advantage that hinges on exclusivity of a physical distribution system (wires, cables, fiber, etc.) will last. With wireless telephone and TV being widely available, wireless internet can't be far behind which would pretty much wipe out their current stranglehold.

I'm no fan of monopolies but they are almost a necessary evil. If monopolies were benevolent overlords then the economic inefficiency they create would not exist. And it is this inefficiency which provides an economic incentive to provide the same good/service for less by innovating new and better systems of production and distribution.

So in the long run, monopolies cannot survive. But they will always be around. Its just part of a natural cycle.

Cox is simply the Comcast of that region. Same monopoly - just change the two words - Cox and Verizon?

They don't rewire for digital. Your analog TV antenna is also a digital antenna. Same wires carry digital or analog - if wires were properly installed.

1950 copper telephone wires were sufficient for DSL. In every case, the bottleneck is what those wires connect to - not the wires.

Same with fiber optics. That bandwidth keeps increasing not due to more fiber. Existing fiber bandwidth keep increasing over the years due to the word that also makes America great - innovation.

Why was DSL not installed starting 1981? No rewiring necessary. But the local monopolist refused to replace that circuit switch computer with a packet switch computer. 1996 Federal Commication Act was Clinton saysing that if the company does not innovate, then anyone else can install that innovation on same company lines.

Notice how often companies will not innovate until required by government law - big steel, domestic automakers, coal fired power plants, etc.

Monopolies should only exist if their monopoly is due to innovation. Unfortunately, even those monopolies get corrupted as bean counters move in to stifle innovation - because their only purpose is profits.

What saves companies? Free market forces. For example the greatest America patriots bought cars manufactured in 1960 Moscow if those cars were the best. Buy American creates monopolies, destroys innovation, and undermines America. Threat of bankruptcy being one of the few tools that attacks the enemy of every company with vindiction. That enemy is a CEO who comes from business schools and only worked in fianance - does not come from where the work gets done.

Well, free maket competition saved 1990 IBM. Free market competition works because it attacks the enemy of every company - defective bean counter management. No matter how good Verizon and Comcast are today, their monopolitist market is ripe territory for MBAs to take over, stifle innovation, destroy jobs, and preach a doctine that always promotes corruption and threatens America: "The purpose of a company is its profits."

It was a silly myth that if multiple companies must install lines in the same neighborhood, then nobody would be profitable. Equivalent to saying only Intel patented technology can exist in an Intel microprocessor. Complete MBA bullshit. In free markets, companies even share the same telephone pole - despite what those MBAs say to justify monopolies.

It adds $40/month to the price. We don't currently have cable and try to not watch a bunch of TV. It's on 2-3 hours a day, which is well below the national average, but still too much. If we had a zillion HD channels, the whole family would watch a lot more tv, and we don't want that. Especially for the kids.

This is all excellent advice, and wasn't clear at all from the Verizon FIOS webpage they gave me to prepare for the FIOS install.

I'm not going to have the FIOS service entrance near our electrical service entrance because that's in my woodworking shop, and it gets very dusty in there at times. Can't be good for high tech equipment. I'll have them put it in the cleaner half of the basement in the area where the current phone and natural gas enter. I plan to run a dedicated circuit (which I believe must be GFCI protected because it's an unfinished basement) to a receptacle there. Then I'll mount a large, maybe 2x3 foot, sheet of plywood to the concrete block wall there to accept all the equipment. You have an interesting thought about the wifi being located in the basement. I'll have to think about that. I assumed we would put it in one of our first floor rooms right next to the desktop PC. We have no laptops, but that will probably change in the future, and guests visit often with their laptops. They will appreciate the wifi.

I'm pissed off at Verizon for canceling our perfectly good DSL, but in the long run this is probably a good move. The price for this FIOS package is roughly equal to what we are currently paying for phone and internet, and the connection speeds are 10 times faster coming down and 8 times faster going up. I'll miss our old e-mail address though.

You know, you're overlooking a lot.

A decade ago, most people in the US had:

- one choice for local phone service
- 3-4 choices for long distance voice
- three expensive choices for wireless
- three choices for TV cable (local wired, two satellites, max 100 channels)
- a large number of choices for low-speed Internet access
- a few expensive choices for medium-speed Internet access (ISDN)

NOW, most people in the US have:

- four choices for TV cable (two locally wired, two satellites, max 500 channels)
- 4+ choices for local phone (what with Vonage and Skype and whatnot)
- 4-5 moderately expensive choices for wireless
- basically no choices for long distance voice, because the industry has changed
- two choices for high-speed Internet access
- a large number of choices for medium-speed Internet access (wireless with data plan, DSL, the satellites)
- a large number of choices for low-speed Internet access (dial-up)
- one choice for satellite radio (two delivery systems, satellite or internet)

Both Cox and Verizon compete in this area (Northern Virginia). I can choose either one for any service (TV/tel/internet all from one, all from the other or TV from Cox and tel from Verizon or vice versa or TV from Dish, internet from Verizon and tel from Cox, etc., etc.).

They both can't be monopolies in the same coverage area when there are no restrictions on what I can purchase from either one. And neither one requires a contract - I can switch back and forth at any time without penalty.

There is no disadvantage to go with either Cox or Verizon or to get TV and tel from yet another provider. I don't see the monopoly. At least not in this area.

It's not the old punch-down blocks anymore. It's a big battery, a connection, and a router. It even looks nice. I had them put it in my living room, close to where the connection comes in from the street, and the installers appreciated it. When I added Fios TV, they exchanged my router for one with WiFi for free.

I think we're getting the wifi router for free.

Just don't use WEP security. Use WEP2. WEP is a joke nowadays.

Did they bring the fiber optic cable into the house and put all the equipment inside, or did they terminate the fiber optics outside at one box and have everything else inside?

Yeah the cable comes inside and is terminated at a nice putty-colored plastic box which needs AC power via standard outlet. I think it's a little UPS with the "modem" inside, translating whatever protocol they use over the fiber to standard IP for the router.

Do you have to have wifi with fios?

No.

Tell that to the many other soft drink manufacturers who competed against the 'not monopoly' Coke and Pepsi.

A Coke salesman and friend described their 'not monopoly'. Coke would walk into a grocery store with a 26 week contract that put major restrictions on all other soft drink sales AND required major shelf space reserved only for Coke products. Grocery stores had little choice but to sign. 26 weeks later, when the Coke contract expired, then the Pepsi salesman walked in right on schedule to provide the same 26 week contract. Not a monopoly - correct. But even the Coke salesman who was signing up those grocery stores said otherwise.

Why did a container cost more than the Cola inside? Massive profits because the 'not monopolies' could set excessively high profit margins.

Back in the early phone days, AT&T was using almost monopolistic powers to subvert all other phone companies. The government stepped in to break up AT&T. But AT&T management saw it coming. So AT&T quickly proposed massive changes to their operating standards and agreed to comply with something new - what we now called Public Utility Commissions. AT&T changed its corporate philosophy to 'we will service customers, not harm any competitors and expect the PUCs to keep us honest'.

This market model for a monopoly worked as long as the market did not change - as long as disruptive innovations did not occur. By the 1960s, modems were all but virtually banned because only AT&T's gold plated modem was permitted. How much was a modem line even within the same exchange? Somewhere between $200 and $400 per month. Even renting a computer terminal and printer from AT&T cost less per month. But they were a benevolent monopoly. And their predecessors kept another 1981 technology called DSL out of America until all but required by a 1996 Federal Communication Act. But the baby Bells really were no longer a monopoly? If they were not a monopoly, then why could no one get DSL?

Eventually, the courts broke up AT&T’s monopoly because even the kindest and most benevolent monopoly eventually becomes too corrupt.

When it comes to phone and cable service, most everyone now has only two choices. Sure, you can get Cavalier phones. But whose line get used and who sets the rate for those lines? Verizon. Its still Verizon hardware, wires, and buildings. Cavalier is permited just enough 'space' to reap a tiny profit - so that many will believe Comcast and Verizon do not 'share' the monopoly.

I have seen both configurations.

FIOS comes most often with the router (only four ports) and WiFi in one box. Never saw a FIOS without WiFi, however the option is probably available.

For what its worth, DSL comes up to 8 Mb. It screams despite those cable claims of 'slow' DSL. All three - DSL, cable, and FIOS are so fast that bottleneck delays are more often internet congestion or slow servers.

If I did not mention it before, I cannot say enough about WiFi software on computers that measure signal strength in dBs. Those 'five bars' is almost useless. This 'tool' is extremely useful in eliminating WiFi dead spots. One problem for WiFi can be the main metal heat ducts. Wifi is best located above so that these ducts do not obstruct the signal. I corrected WiFi installations by mouting the WiFi up in the joists on a 'table' nailed between those joists. It also do this because I love driving big nails into big wood with a big hammer that has big teeth.

So I'm reading the contract for the FIOS, and in the section where I promise I won't be a spammer or kiddie porn guy, it says "it is a violation of the agreement and this AUP to: ... post off-topic information on message boards, chat rooms or social networking sites." Uh-oh.

Yeah, we'll be watching you.

Because the company paid for the advertising that put their product in front of people. People chose to buy the product to the point of brand loyalty. Because people received value for their money and were satisfied in doing so.

The soft drink industry might not be the best comparison TW.

Yeah, now I'm thirsty.

What is annoying is to get someone new who reads through the handbook.

I find that esp when it comes to computer help.


So how is Verison as a carrier over all? The family plans are more expensive than T Moble and AT&T also ,AT&T does not seem to have much of a coverage area.

Got the FIOS installed on Tuesday. Went very smoothly. The installation looks neat and professional. I must say, the bump up in speed from our temporary dial-up to fiber optic speed leaves me breathless. My parents were visiting, and had their laptop. With the wireless transmitter located in the basement, they had an extremely strong signal everywhere in the entire house. I'm quite pleased.

I've been on vacation the last week, and haven't checked the Cellar. There are 179 threads with new posts, and today promises to be busy at work. It will take a week to catch up.

Describe what boxes you got and where they are installled? Was any of this installation outside? How was it mounted? Does the internet modem have Wifi, ethernet wires, and a connection to other boxes with a coax cable? Or does the wifi and ethernet router get connected by ethernet (RJ-45) connection? What did they provide as a UPS? Something separate?

As noted before, I have seen many variations of FIOS. Just wondering how many more are out there?

The fiber optic cable goes from the telephone pole at the end of my driveway through the air to the side of my house. It uses the same wall anchor that the original copper phone service uses. It drops down next to the original service box outside, and comes into the basement through the original service hole (which had been cleared of the original copper wires.) Inside, there is one large box mounted to the wall. The fiber terminates in there. There is a battery backup in that box. Coming out of that box are a phone line, a coaxial internet cable, a ground wire, and a power cord. The phone line goes to the original phone mounting junction located at a nearby joist and connects to all the phones in the house. The coaxial cable goes to a separate wireless router supplied by Verizon. This router has 4 Ethernet ports, and I've got two of them used by cat5 and cat6 I fished upstairs for the current computer location and also a future computer location. My father tested the wireless signal with his laptop, and it's very strong throughout the entire house. The power cord plugs into a compact surge protector that is plugged into a new GFCI outlet I installed. The previously mentioned ground wire is clamped to a nearby pipe that goes from our boiler to an upstairs radiator. (I think, but am not certain, that this constitutes a good ground, because metal pipes appear to be used continuously from the water service entrance to the boiler and then to this radiator pipe. They are also tied in to the gas pipes and the electrical panel ground.)

I can post a picture if you are interested.

I find the ground wire curious. I'm not sure what they are grounding. It must be the phones in the house, but I think that system is already grounded from the phone junction on the joist. The electrical system is already grounded. And the fiber optic cable is not conductive.

That seems to be the more common installations. Earlier installations put that FIOS to copper interface box outside the house.

That ground wire is improperly connected. Grounding to any pipes is no longer acceptable - a code violation. A ground wire must attach to the same rod that also services or served the AC electric box, cable, and old phone ground.

No longer acceptable is dumping electricity into any pipe. Any ground connection to pipes is only to remove fault currents from those pipes. The connection to existing AC electric ground must be via a dedicated wire; not through pipes.

Anything that can conduct electricity must be safety grounded which is one reason why FIOS boxes have a dedicated safety ground wire.

No cable TV on the FIOS installation?

For convenience, write the WiFi broadcast name and WEP code on a sticky label located near the assembly where that information is easily read without moving any boxes.

This sounds like the new FIOS standard hardware. No longer see new installations with the FIOS interface modem outside the house.

Nope. Not for us. We have a rooftop antenna.

Yeah. It's weird. I need to take another look at it. I'm not sure why it's grounded in the first place. It's also plugged into a grounded outlet with (I think) a 3 prong plug.

tw - why would they put it outside if they can do it inside? The nema enclosures are so much more expensive and having the connections internal seems to be smarter anyway.

My neighbor had FIOS installed about 3 months ago, but the box is on the outside (front too) of the house. OH and the cheapest green "clay" blocks the moisture from entering the box. It looks terrible and doesn't really seal the whole in the bottom of the box either.
I haven't done that type of work in 20 years and I easily could have done a better job than that.

We've been experiencing the first problem with FIOS.... slow DNS.

I've switched us to OpenDNS.

Outside for same reasons that a POTS (conventional telephone) NID, AC electric meter, gas meter and shutoff, etc are also outside. For example, service performed without anyone being home.

Electrical clay is perfectly good moisture protection. Normally, electrical clay is black. Clay is rarely applied 'pretty'. A better clay seal is a lump to make a moisture resistant barrier.

Of course, better installations also use a drip loop before entering a box or building.

If AC plug is removed, the box has no safety ground. A failure in TV isolation (for example) could result in a hot box. The earth ground may also serve other functions such as RFI reduction, transient protection, etc. Devices that are not moveable traditionally also have dedicated safety grounds. One could argue it both ways. But simpler and safer is to dedicate that ground - that may also be earthing a ground separate from the receptacle safety ground.

It just looks like crap and is on the front of the house visible to the street :headshake

I have another related question and seek advice from anyone who feels qualified. Our new service offers caller ID, which we never had, plus our current 900MHZ analog cordless phone has sticky buttons, so we want to get a new cordless phone with a caller ID display.

I'm curious if I have to look for a certain frequency phone to avoid interference with the wireless router. I looked at the wireless router for information on the frequency it uses, but could find none. The router is a Verizon branded MI424WR router. 2 Is there a specific frequency phone I should be looking for? I tried a Google search but can't find anything.

I love our current 900 MHZ analog Panasonic cordless phone, but its life is almost over.

I do not think so, but I am not positive - I have a Panasonic KX-TG5632 5.8ghz and no problems with interference.

According to MS:

If you have cordless phones or other wireless electronics in your home, your computer might not be able to "hear" your router over the noise from the other wireless devices. To quiet the noise, avoid wireless electronics that use the 2.4GHz frequency. Instead, look for cordless phones that use the 5.8GHz or 900MHz frequencies.

The frequencies are FCC assigned and per industry standards. 802.11G uses 2.4 Ghz which is also used by so many if not most electronics wireless devices (including portable phones, Bluetooth, and even remote weather monitors). That frequency is also used by microwave ovens.

What frequency will you router use? Well, negotiations determine that. If router and computer are 802.11N, then both may use 5 Ghz. Or may use 2.4 Ghz.

Problem is so few channels in so few ISM bands shared by so many wireless devices. Good news. All those devices are designed to use same frequency and work fine.

What is important? Waste no time with nonsense such as 'five bars'. Useful information is in numbers such as signal to noise ratios measured in dBs. Many other devices on the same frequency simply reduce that S/N ratio. Only then does anyone really know whether the device is and will be reliable.

Your father used his portable to measure signal strength? Then what were the dB numbers? Again, '5 bars' is one or two steps above useless.

I'm not big on clone threads but this thread could have been titled Cellular Dreamin'.

Ha! You're not big on them, but still, you're thinkin' of 'em. And having to tell us about 'em. Sucker.

The extra threads slow down my speed-reading of the cellar. The only clone thread I ever started had a reason for existing of it's own, so I didn't feel badly about that.

Verizon shows their academic prowess:

We are seriously contemplating getting the FIOS TV now. We've had just internet and phone for a few years, and the low price has crept up over time, and they are now charging as much for that bundle of two as they would for the bundle of three, including the TV. They have an offer now where if we sign up for TV too, they will send us a $300 gift card. Just have to sign a 2 year contract. I assume this is to keep us from looking at Xfinity/Comcast's low prices.

Anyway, we're inclined to go for it, except I don't know exactly what it will mean. Do they just run a coaxial cable from the router (which has a coaxial tv output) and flip a switch at their home base to send us the TV, or is there already a scrambled signal coming from that coaxial output, and they will just give us a set top box to descramble it?

I'm not too keen on a set top box and yet another remote. We've also got a subscription-free DVR that records content from our rooftop antenna while also passing a signal through to the TV. I wonder if that will work with the FIOS TV. If there is a set top box, I imagine the DVR won't work any more to record one show while we watch another. Actually, I imagine the DVR won't work at all for programming shows. We would have to be there to tune the set top box to the show and then start the DVR. And that misses the point of a DVR entirely.

We don't really want the FIOS TV so much, although it will be nice to have for the winter Olympics. It's just hard to turn down $300. I also don't want to get tricked into paying extra for a Verizon DVR or set top box. I'd only do this if we can switch over for free and also get the $300 gift card.

What's the FIOS TV setup like at the TV end?

You won't be able to use your DVR for FIOS programming, but if it works now, I don't see any reason it won't continue to work for antenna programs, as long as you have a way to switch between it and your FIOS box on your TV. So you can watch your FIOS while recording an on-air program on your DVR.

You may not be able to record FIOS unless you get a FIOS DVR, though.

So does there have to be a set top box for FIOS TV? The TV's digital tuner can't see the FIOS signal without a box to help it?

This is true although you can theoretically get "cable cards" to work with TiVos and whatnot.

I have FIOS and I love it. Prior to Fios, I had DSL and prior to that, plain-jane cable internet. As a gamer who requires uninterrupted internet access, it rocks.

I did nothing to prepare for install. Actually, I rented the house partly because Verizon said Fios was available for the address. Turns out they missed the 4 houses on my block (2 on each side of the street). After trying to weasle out of providing it, they sent a team out and put a line in under the 4 lane highway next to the house. They had to put new wires in the house and it didn't cost me a dime. We have wireless on all computers except my main box (there are 3 other desktops and 2 laptops). Once, the router pooped out on us, and verizon sent us a new one within 2 days.

I don't use the phone service, but it doesn't cost any more to have it than it would to not have it, so the single phone we have sits there, unplugged. I guess if the cell phones go kaput, we can always use the land line.

The cable is nice because we DVR shows we like and then watch them at our convenience. That way, we don't feel we are at the television's mercy. I pay $10 a month for the DVR, and one set top box is included. The other TV's have only basic boxes (no charge), but they don't come with the on demand menu or being able to watch recorded shows.

The whole thing is not the cheapest service there is, but I've had the cheapest and this is better, by far.

Yeah, it's looking like I have to rent some sort of a set top box for around $10-$20 a month to get the TV service. This makes me less excited about this package deal. I couldn't turn it down when the price was the same and they were giving me $300, but if the price is $20 more each month, then that's no deal.

I like the internet and phone though. FiOS is good stuff.