Why do we need to keep talking about religion?
 

I hope to avoid turning this into a flame-war. I actually don't want to argue one side or another. But these past few years I'm beginning to wonder more and more frequently... why is there still so much talk about religion?

A lot of people rejoiced when Palin headed back to Alaska. "Finally we can start forgetting about her". No matter if you liked Palin or were glad to see her go, most people understand the logic: if there's something you consider inconsequential then it's best just to "forget about it".

Why can't people have the same attitude toward society's wish to impose our own personal view of the "right answer to the big question"? Most people don't feel the need to argue til they're blue in the face about other parts of philosophy, so why this topic? I'm not only talking about the religious zealots... it seems atheist zealots are increasingly vehement. We've all seen comments threads on fark like this one.

But why does it matter? If you're religious why not use India as a model, and let your neighbor have their own faith? Go feel contented with your unerring faith in God while you pass out your religious fliers. And if you're atheist feel content living free of the burdens of religion while you throw away the fliers the religious folks hand out. Why does it ALWAYS turn into a holy war?

After almost three years of living in China I've really had my eyes opened how an entire people can have complete impartiality toward religion. It's funny, when I was home last holidays I went with my parents to their church, and the pastor began talking about Christian persecution in China, and how we need more resolve to "penetrate the Great Wall".

I found it funny, because the truth is that the government and the people really couldn't care less about Christianity, or any other religion. It's just that the government takes extreme measures because that's the way they handle *all* groups. I live in Shanghai, and the government continually steps in to kill all attempts to set up an amateur soccer league. They're not fearful of soccer and fight to deny it to their people. They just fear any organization with a strong membership that's not loyal to the party.

And the local people... they're not hungry for religion. There's access to churches in even some of the smallest of towns. They're just very small and overlooked because most people really couldn't care less.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not citing China as an example of progressive cultural philosophy. I just think it makes common sense. I'd be overjoyed if we could get to the point when we didn't have to worry about not only did our President go to church, but does he REALLY believe in God?

What does it matter?

My parents are part of the Palin nation. My Dad was continually sending out emails claiming how wonderful Palin was for President. But why? If I was a school principal and I needed to pick a new football coach, would I interview coaches and ask football questions, or would I interview coaches and ask them about the rapture?

It's silly. I vote we just forget about it, and move on. Both sides.

PS: if you're Christian and you're trying to spread the word in China... please, don't be silly and try to lug 500 heavy Bibles through customs. They'll be nicked, the same way if you tried to lug 500 identical copies of anything through customs. Seriously, just put a copy of the Bible on a USB key, get to China and have a local print shop churn out 20,000 Bibles for the same cost you paid for your 500. Then stand on the street-corner and hand out as many as you want. Much easier.

Bad example. Horrible.

Anti-Christian attacks flare in India

10,000 Christians living in refugee camps in Kandhamal

Hindu extremists' reward to kill Christians

Not sure why you picked India, particularly, but it's not the best place to go looking for your post-religious nirvana.

It keeps coming up for two reasons.
Firstly, many religions instruct their followers that it is their duty to convert the rest of the world to The Path. Hence they get out and push pamphlets etc.
Secondly, non-religious types find it troubling when religious types get their hands on the levers of power and use those levers to push what the non-religious types consider to be a load of nonsense, and often quite dangerous nonsense.
Conflict is inevitable, but violent conflict is (sometimes) avoidable.

Why do we need to keep talking about religion?
 

You started it. :p

Because zealots are dangerous, whether they are for or against, anything.

I'm actually missing the flame wars on subjects outside of politics. Yeppers.......Where's RK when you need him?;)

I was hoping you'd step in for him Cic.

Screw you classic! You don't know what you are talking about! Especially if it's about where I step!! Damn you, you slack jawed idiot!!
How's that?;)

Outstanding! I knew I could count on you ya ____ ___ ___ _______!

Meh, *maybe* India isn't the best example, but I still have to think it's not as bad as it sounds. Consider that it wasn't long ago that I read a news article that some rednecks gassed a nursery in a mosque while it was in session, and sickened a bunch of Islamic kids. All this happened in Ohio. Based on that news article should we now deduce that all of America is a terrorist state?

India is maaaaasive. Sure you'll find examples. But even if it's not an idyllic paradise (and rarely when you talk about religion do you find find a bonafide utopia), then I think the overall point is valid.

Why can't we all just get along?

10,000 people displaced from their homes is not an isolated incident.

Ok, fine. Inda sucks. We should declare another Holy War on India and liberate the Christians. Instead of using India, let's talk about... oh, I don't know, Canada.

Go to Canada, be what you want, worship whatever golden calf you want, and we can all be buddies and watch hockey together.

/end insert

Happy now?

Aren't the Canookacadians having a problem with folks trying to implement Sharia' law?

Not to mention the ever-trying-to-secede Quebec. Just because they're not religiously-based doesn't mean culture wars have been eliminated.

Yes, way to not overreact to my post. A war of liberation was exactly what I was suggesting.

Don't get your panties in a wad just because your peaceful example turned out to be a war zone. I suspect the same thing will be true of any nation you choose to use as an example.

The only exception are places where the dominant religion is a homogenized civil religion, that makes no actual claims about the nature of God. If you think tradition, ceremony, and exhortation to general good acts are the sum total of religion, then there is no reason why everyone can't get along. But, if you think religion makes real claims about the nature of God, claims that can be true or false, and that those claims have real significance in how we ought to live, then conflict about those ideas is inevitable.

It's kind of like communism - you're free to argue it on the merits, but you'll have to do so without the benefit of an example. It turns out to not be very compatible with how people actually are.

Damn you and your logical-ness SM.

It seems I am becoming a spruiker for Roy Zimmerman, but the REAL danger isn't Muslims or even militant Hindus.

The truth is revealed here.

...and speaking of India, it's not looking so peaceful today.

My overreaction was intentional. I didn't want to waste time talking about India anymore. Even if the example was imperfect, I didn't think the example was core to the argument. I felt like if you were the chap sitting next to Forrest Gump on the bench and he told you, "life is like a box a chocolates...", that you would answer him, "You know, many brands of chocolate provide a product where a box will contain all of the same kind of chocolates. Others provide a clear 'map' to tell you exactly what you will get."

Yes. Very nice. But that's not the point.

But, what your last post sounds like is that you're arguing that it's enlightenment is impossible. There is no nirvana... everywhere in the world you will find either a homogeneous culture, or strife. So is your stance that we should just give up? We should either choose the path of ethnic cleansing, or just accept the fact that if we do choose a mixed society then holy wars and suicide bombers should be accepted as the norm?

No lie. :-/

Nonsense. Today is very quiet.

Yesterday, now that was fucked up.

God has placed a desire for himself in every person.

"You have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you" (St. Augustine).

A hole in our soul the shape of which only He/She can fill?

I used fix-a-flat on my soul, now it works just fine. :haha:

I don't need to.

Because I don't care what you believe in (not that much, outside of friendly curiosity) and you don't care what I believe.

Is it too early to pass on that my sis-in-law told me that my brother called her to tell her about what was happening in India (one of her employees is from India and it was just breaking news) and she said, totally without thinking "Holy COW!"

She didn't mean it. Eh, er...too early?

...Like if someone told me about something horrendous that happened in a Christian country, and I said "Jesus Christ!"?

:fsm:

That is funny! That's something I say sometimes; I have no idea where I got the saying from, but I have always been aware of the reference.

I guess when someone talks about illegal Mexicans, I ought not to say "Holy Guacamole!"

My son has morphed this into "holy whack-a-moley!" :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ddy_christ.jpg

.....that'd be the Church of England then? A church founded primarily on tea and scones.

A church founded by a despot who wanted to divorce his wife you mean? lol

That's the one. Seriously though, it's mainly about the tea and scones.

Oh those C of E ladies do a lot of nice things in the community. Most of the ones I've had the good fortune to know have been much nicer than the Catholic ones. If you want anything from them, you have to sit through the lecture first. lol

There are some foods I come close to worshiping. But I don't think that'd include tea or scones. :D

Well obviously you've not had a perfect devonshire tea then. ;)

No. I haven't. But I'm willing to try it the next time you're in Chicago. :D

Currently, I'm partial to Twinings Oolong - no sugar or milk.

I go to the American version of that church. Instead of tea and scones, we have coffee and banana bread.

I wonder if I should have put a footnote about the fact that a devonshire tea is usually something floral like earl grey, served with fluffy scones, topped with butter and strawberry jam and fresh cream?

I don't know if you can actually get a tea called devonshire.

If I ever get to chicago I'll look you up though. :)

There's an old story that's been used for a number of different religions. I heard it first about Unitarians, so we'll go with that.

A Unitarian dies. After going through the tunnel of light he comes to a signpost. There are two arrows. The left one says "To Heaven". The right one says "To a discussion about Heaven". Being Unitarian, he heads to the right.

The point being that religion, politics, relationships etc. will always be discussed. They are the big questions that everyone needs to answer for themselves. Who am I really? What am I doing here? What makes a good life and what comes after?

Different people come up with different answers. But it's always fun to talk about.

I resemble that remark! :p

But whoever came up with the 72 virgins thing, came closer to describing Hell rather than Heaven IMO. Sheesh!

Trying to see that one of God's female creatures (emotional) needs are met is more than a lifetime's work... 72 times over!! Thats not heaven in my book. Heaven is when I can sustain for a while my one womans needs being met.

It would be like trying to lick your way through a six foot thick wall of your favorite ice cream to freedom. (72 = 6') :D

I reckon a lot of people here would take the right hand fork.

Yeah, those guys are pretty concerned with the emotional needs of women and other property.:eyebrow:

Great point Griff.
No doubt my perspective in my post that I have isn't even close to those looking for 72 virgins.
I was just thinking aloud and troubled for both the men and women involved for all that they are missing. :sniff:

But then I get that way about all of the various ways humans mistreat and hurt one another. :headshake
Its so tragic... from my world view.

Riddel, what are the thoughts behind your asking?

A factor I don't think anyone has brought up is that we in the west who historically for the most part believe a person only lives once on this earth and thats it for here... when they die, they will nevermore get any opportunities in this world.

There is then an accompanying sense of urgency for us as people then to find the truth in this life.

If you had this world view and a true concern and caring for your neighbors and friends, and those around you, would you want to help them if possible to find their spiritual way if you had indeed found something special?

Love and caring hearts motivate at least some to want to talk about religion. It has been my life's experience that at least most christians I've known have had this for their motivation.

As well, many of us may want to talk about religion because we are still searching for more truth.
As much as I may think I know, I also know that others know things that I don't.

And if I have an open mind and heart I might grow further in my own understanding of truth and knowledge.
So if we place a high value on such, we want to discuss religion as well as whatever else.

Virgins female... and male
 

And if one of those seventy-two is Customer Service, or is it Customer Service Kirby -- eep. NSFW. [And this is just one of a bajillion such. Some people's turnons I just don't get. Some Rule 34 is clearly drawn on a bet, but this particular search tag is way beyond winning a bet.]