Negotiating Salary/Benefits
 

So, I think I found my dream job. This week I'm meeting with the HR guy, I assume for them to extend me an offer.

I've already heard (through the grapevine) that they will try to lowball me, and I assumed that they might, as this is a new and very small facility (1/10th the capacity of my current one).

On the other hand, they do need the talent, I've already met the CIO (he loved me), and they're going to have to entice me to drive (and be on call) from an hour away.

I've never had to negotiate with an HR guy before.

*** What kind of Jedi mind tricks could he pull?

*** What tactics/ammunition should I have prepared?

*** What else do I need to know? What is your experience with this?

I call upon thee, oh Dwellars of great and mighty experience, plz help!

An hour away???

Yes. One hour. There just aren't that many of my specific job available in a given geographical region.

And I am willing to make the drive--if it means advancing my skills, career path, and providing for my family.

If I get the job, I intend to eventually move out there.

Whew...good luck then.

I would hate to live so far away from my job, and now especially because of gas prices, but mostly because it just blows. Moving in closer would be a good idea.

Is the lowball offer something you can live with? Or is it a real painful choice? (Obviously you don't knwo yet.)

I'm no expert in this, but I think the only real tool you have in any negotiation like this is the willingness to walk away. If they see you walking away and know it's only about money and that you otherwise would love to work there, then they may toss you a bone.

Oh wait, there's another tool. Do you have any pictures of this HR guy getting serviced by a hooker?

A little birdy told me I would have to counter-offer at least once.

The thing is, I'm not good at haggling. So, is there an official framework for negotiating these things--an ettiquette? Any advice would be helpful to me.

You've probably done this already, but..
Find out what the going rate is for that position in the area.

Decide what you want, not what you think you deserve, because you'll underrate yourself. You have to assume while you're, "advancing my skills, career path, and providing for my family", you'll also be taking care of their needs. It's not all one way.

Figure out what you have to get, just to break even. That's the minimum you can accept in return for the career move.

Set the minimum you'll accept in advance, but if they offer more, see if they'll go higher. And any promised increases should be in writing.

Good luck.

Thanks, Bruce. That is good "horse-sense," very practical.

What I am more apprehensive about is the actual meeting with the guy; I have some social anxiety...if he makes me nervous my mind might wander. I'm hoping I can get an idea of what to expect during an HR negotiation; or what I can stay focused on, to make it appear that I know what I'm doing. I don't like not knowing what the basic format of this encouter will be.

Try this site for some tips.

It's all in how you say it. "I really like what I've seen so far and I'd love to work for XYZ, but I just can't support my family on $XXX. I'd consider $YYY a reasonable figure."

It doesn't have to be those words, but something that indicates that you are interested in the job, but that the salary doesn't work for you.

Whatever you do, when you are in the meeting and your mind starts to wander, don't think of that Brady Bunch episode where Marsha was nervous about taking a driving exam, so she pictured her driving tester in his underwear, and she passed the test! Cause that will make you smile, and then the HR guy will think you like his low ball offer.

Flint:

1 -- GOOD LUCK!!

2 -- You are about to enter the phase of your relationship with this (potential) employer where you will have the greatest amount of leverage you will ever have with them. It is a short phase, and it will be all downhill from here. Right now, assuming you are given an offer, you have something they want and don't yet have. They want you and they're willing to pay a price to satisfy that want. What that price is is not yet defined, but since they obviously want to conserve their money, lower is better.

Keep in mind that there are many ways other than net pay that can help close the gap between what you require and what they are willing to pay. The smaller the organization, the more flexibility you can work with. Starting with more paid time off, or starting at a middle point of the time off earning schedule is one. Other benefits like employer paid health care costs, or an accelerated vesting schedule for your 401k, travel expenses (partially) reimbursed. A signing bonus. Be creative. Be greedy (for now).

Think about what you want. Oh! Would they be willing to pay for your formal training? And give you paid time off for the duration? Getting that cert was important to you in a different thread, right? Show them your self improvement drive.

3 -- I agree with xoB's remarks. Especially about getting things in writing. A good way to finesse this is to listen politely to their offer. When you get it in writing, or ask for it in writing if it's not delivered that way to begin with, then say something like "This looks really appealing. I'd like some time to talk it over with my wife, if you don't mind. Could I give you my reply tomorrow/Monday/whatever?" They'll say ok. And if they don't do you want to work with someone who's inflexible on such a reasonable request right off the bat? This is important. Do this even if the offer is way higher than your top dream number. It will let you consider the numbers and the offer more objectively. It will increase your ... what ... cred? respect due? grrr.. Don't be "easy". I think you know what I mean. This works once. Now is the time when it works, not later. Not after you've said yes. Only before. And it diminishes in effectiveness each subsequent time you use it. *note*

3 -- Do your homework. Now. Do the same research they've done to see what the going rate for talent like yours is in their (remote?) neighborhood. Salary.com is a good place to look. Use their job title. Then use a few other similar job titles. Round up. Print out the three most favorable close matches and bring them to the second meeting.

4 -- Yeah, the second meeting. Remember, you didn't wet your pants with joy when they said they'd hire you and now you're back with a counter offer. This offer will also be in writing, it will be the research you did online for similar talent. They'll recognize the numbers, since they already did the same thing you just did. You're calling them. Your numbers will be fair. How can they say no? Well, they might plead poverty "Oh we're so young and small and we can't pay...." etc etc. Then you have a decision to make. That's when you need to bring in the other non cash enticements. Expect them to respond to your offer like you did to theirs--let me think about it and we'll call you back. **DON'T FREAK OUT HERE**. I know you want the job. Hang on. Wait for their reply to your counter offer. Then you'll know what to do.

5 -- Here is a link to some examples of the kind of language I've used when this subject has come up. I try to invoke their self interest insofar as they want a quality product and should expect to pay *fair market value*.

As for HR jedi mind trixors.... Remember that the HR guy works for the company, and just like other managers of other company assets and resources (materials, facilities, inventory, HUMANS), his first loyalties belong to the company, not you, you puny human. Also, get stuff in writing. Don't be pushed into signing.

It's an exciting scary uncertain time, negotiating for a new job. But it is totally worth it.

Thanks, BigV
...my stomach is all messed up.

I already know a couple of things...

That Salary.com etc. will tell them an average base-salary number that exceeds my current base+on-call pay. (And I have many, many other sources that I have laid out in spreadsheets that I've been waving in the face of my current mgmt.)

That I come on a personal recommendation as exactly what the CIO is looking for; and he was very impressed with me.

So I'm going into this with the approach that, with the hour-long drive expense, I'd be taking a pay CUT unless they can offer me a certain dollar amount to leave my current, perfectly respectable position at a major, industry-leading facility/chain.

Benefits: They do have a 401k--it isn't matched but "profit sharing" is put into it. No tuition reimbursement (yet), but the CIO states that the FIRST thing they would do is send me for various training (big plus for me). The new training/experience in itself translates into many more $$$s over my career path.

I get excellent vacation time now (not that I can ever actually use it) so I intend to push for that, or some monetary compensation or bonus to offset that.

What does your current base+on-call pay have to do with anything? Have you already provided this information to them? I hope not, but if so, you've given away a big piece of your leverage. If not, don't. It's not germane to the conversation.

You and them are talking about the (potential) job at their company, let's talk about the pay for that job, shall we? It is not the case that they hold all the cards, but they do hold a lot of them.

Is that value you've been waving under the noses of current management one with which you'd be happy? Knowing what *you* want/need is a big plus. If you already have the number/package, great! That's your counter offer. In writing, naturally.

Just fyi, I used to have a terribly long commute. For me it wasn't worth it. Think hard about 2/16ths of your waking time spent burning $$ out your tailpipe... that needs to be "worth it". It has a real cost, both in fuel and hassle and in time away from your young family. Don't lowball that figure, Flint. You'll regret it.

Very good points V. Personally my new maximum commute is now 30 minutes. With traffic or other unforeseen issues it can quickly become an hour. Since you have younger ones that can mean the difference between making or missing ball games, recitals...
You are good - very good don't undersell yourself.

Whatever happens try to make them offer you a number first. Then no matter how high or low it is, know that you cann add at least 10% to it. Also, other benefits & perks can add up to a lot as far as compensation goes. Don't know much about your situation, but they are all bargaining chips - you can sacrifice (wink wink) for something else. Its just like the game of chicken - whoever blinks first loses.

Nothing, to them; but everything to me. I know that they are "running the numbers" on what my position pays, and I know that the results will be more than what I make now, but they don't have to know that.

I took the [internet sources] number, rounded up, added on the travel expense, and the cost of buying a new car for my wife. I took that new number and told the CIO that it would be a "lateral move" for me. In reality it would be, like, a $30k raise.

Then, I'm just going to move out there, anyway. Gas money goes back in my pocket, and commute goes back to normal. That's the plan.

If you do this. Move sooner, rather than later. As kids get older, the roots go deeper into the ground and tearing them out is harder.

It takes Dazza over an hour to get to work each day. He doesn't like it that much, but he gets to read the paper on the train, and he likes the lifestyle where we live. Everything is a tradeoff. Just like starting a new job, which leads me to the point.

My advice is to see what they offer. Maybe they've over-estimated what you're currently earning anyway and the offer might be higher than you expect. That being said, it would be unwise to accept the first offer they make you simply because it's good for you to give the impression that you're going to be worth more to them because they have to pay you more. Just keep in mind that the more you ask for, the more they will ask for. Once again, it's a tradeoff.

With regard to how much you should ask for, I'd recommend always asking for at least 10% more than you expect to be paid which should be about 20% more than you need to be paid. In the end you should end up with an offer somewhere around what you want. Also, don't be afraid to enter into some kind of enterprise bargaining. Perhaps they wont agree to pay you the whole value in cash each week, but maybe shares in the company or better benefits etc. There are lots of things with value that you could consider.

Good luck with it. I hope it goes well.

Oh and don't forget to get a "review" after a predetermined period of time as things can change rapidly in a volatile market. For example, if gas prices jump to $8.00 your commute costs just changed dramatically.

Que cards are your friend. 3x5s that should have the numbers you must keep in focus, but even if they are just hen scratching, they'll give you something you can pretend referring to, while collecting your thoughts. Avoids awkward, embarrassing, dohs.;)

OMG
 

The CIO gave the HR guy the number I told him, and the HR guy wrote up an offer.

I had said I need $X0,000 to $X5,000, and he offered me exactly $X0,000 as a straight salary.

I thought I'd have to haggle to get up that high, but now I'll just be haggling for extra money.

The CIO doesn't get back until Monday...maybe he thinks I'll just take this offer. But I'll wait until Monday and say,

"Okay, now, what about this? What about that?" --all the extra monies I dreamed up.

Congrats!
Sounds like they really want you

Sweet!

I love good news like this.

Awesome! Good for you.

I'm so excited/nervous I almost threw up in the shower, while brushing my teeth.

I was hunched over, salivating for like 15 seconds. I have a nervous stomach.

Click ahead a few times for some great ding dong jokes.

From an older comic:

http://collateraldamage.files.wordpr...07/08/pogo.gif

Man. I'm not going to be able to eat today. My valve!

Flint, you are an inspiration! Verrrrry happy for you and yours!

Dar, I love that cartoon.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

[wet blanket]Now, an observation. Don't ask for any extra monies. That ship has sailed. You asked for X and you got X. That's done. I would be pissed at a minimum and question my judgment in selecting you if you came back to me and started talking about more money **after** I gave you what you asked for. Please don't. You risk your credibility, and that is ... unrecoverable in this situation at this early stage.

Maybe, maybe, depending on the narrowness of scope in your conversations with the CIO, there remains some wiggle room in your negotiations to "get extra money". In my opinion, if you talked about salary, only salary... maybe. But look at it from his side... if you went out to buy a car and negotiated the price, and the seller said "OK, I'll sell it to you for ", you'd say, Great, I'll buy it for $X0,000. What would be your reaction if on the following Monday when you came to take delivery the seller said, "Now, as to the "extra money" I want". Deal or no deal? There are a lot of other cars in the ocean, so to speak. This one might be the perfect color, and have the power ashtrays and the led drumstick holders and everything, but...

Or, your budget might have been "$X5,000" in the first place and you must have this car. So, a little extra money isn't a problem.

You have to gauge the state of mind of the CIO. How confident are you with that?

If you're talking about a parking space, or relocation benefits, or extra vacation, or an accelerated review schedule, or other non-cash items, you have a better chance to continue the negotiations. But keep in mind, your only lever is an understanding in the mind of the business deciders that they still want you and they still don't have you.

If you've said "l'll start on Monday" and you want to extend the conversation about your terms, you're doomed. Y'all might talk, but you'll get nothing.

I don't know enough about the details of your conversations to advise you as to what path to take, but I do know enough that this is perilous territory. Don't renege on anything you've agreed to.

I already asked for more money. Because: they don't do 401(k) matching. I asked for that money to be compensated for, in my salary figure.

The HR guy will take this request "to administration" and let me know what they say by Monday .

I'm not really asking for more salary, but I am asking for my salary to offset the losses to my 401(k). Incidentally, this could still fall within the range of X0k to X5k; or possibly be offered as a signing bonus, as 401(k) matching is said to be planned for the future.

I think I was clear that the salary figure is acceptable (it would have to be), but that, considering total compensation, there are some corrections that could be made. If they can't correct them within the benefits, could they offset them within the salary?

That sounds reasonable to me.

Ok, that sounds better.

I just didn't want to see you walking in on Monday raising them after they called you.

There certainly is a distinction between salary and total compensation. Those can be two different conversations. Be aware that the bidding closes when (each of) you say(s) "I do."

Yeah, come on, dude, don't agitate my nervous stomach by telling me not to do what I just got off the phone with them, doing.

The CIO and I had previously discussed salary, then I met with HR and discussed benefits, and at that point was able to take insurance, 401(k), etc. into consideration.

hahahahahah


omg.

srsly?

Which part?

I just got off the phone with HR when I opened this thread and here's BigV saying, "DON'T ask for more money; this is PERILOUS territory!" I was like, "Oh noes!"

You crack me up.

I'm so sorry to give you grief on that. This is a good time to remind you (and others) that I'm so confident in the quality of the advice I give that I offer a double your money back guarantee. I promise that my advice is worth at least twice what you paid for it, and I will cheerfully refund that amount, no questions asked.

Now that we're clear....

If you've gotten past "I want more money" and they didn't hang up on you, I think you're in the clear. They obviously want you. That's great for you (and them I imagine). I hope you get all you want, as a total package, salary, and benefits, and intangibles.

...and then some!

My wife is online, looking at houses.

I'm online, looking at drum sets. lol

Look at this Sonor SQ2 Stratawood set:

Glad you've got your priorities straight.

:smacks you on the ass:

'Bout three years ago, Mr. Clod wanted a new TV. I told him we could get one "when I get a house."

But hey, I kept my word.

To clarify, she's looking at other houses (that aren't an hour away from this job).

It would be a little silly to look at your own house online, it's true.

Anyways, you ladies are always wanting bigger houses and what-not.

Spouses, not houses. Bigger spouses! :rolleyes:

That was included in the "what-not."

Flint, it sounds like you're in I.T.. I am also in that field. I go in with a positive attitude, and it's a good idea to print out a recent salary survey from certmag, or someone else as long as it includes your area of expertise, your certification, and your geographic area. This will show them you know what your skills are worth.

I'm not sure what your background or education you have, but BigV says you've got at least one cert. I'd bring whatever you've got. BigV was also correct in suggesting other ways of compensation (mileage, guaranteed paid training/tuition reimbursement, matching 401k, medical/dental/life insurance, profit sharing, stock options, bonuses, etc.

If you're working at a larger facility that does similar work, make sure you impress upon them the fact that you are in a position to help them now, and as they grow.


Good luck.

By the way, they did come back with an increase on the offer; and I accepted.

I turned in my two weeks notice yesterday. I really wasn't looking forward to that conversation--but it wasn't a surprise to anybody.

Awesome Flint. I'm glad this all worked out to your best benefit.

Was your current employer upset? That would, hopefully will, be a hard conversation to begin.

No, they were totally cool about it; but my avoidant personality disorder causes me to fret over these things.

Congrats on starting this new chapter of your life. Very happy for you.

That's great Flint. Glad it worked out.

Thanks. I wish lookout was here for this. Anybody heard from him?

He popped in to update the soccer thread, that was the last I heard/saw of him.

Do you get to train your replacement? :blunt:

Just reflecting, despite all the gloom and possible doom on Wall street, Flint has just landed a new and better job, and succesfully held out for more pay.

Similar results for Shawnee and someone else who I can't remember right now... who was that?

Anyway, it isn't all hopeless.

Like they will be able to find a replacement in two weeks.

Flint's old boss will be covering for Flint and will have the opportunity to see exactly how much work they asked him to do.

Flint? What was that link again?

It went to a nonsense Wikipedia entry.

lol
That was the right link. There is a link to the "avoidant personality disorder" page in the second paragraph; I'd never heard of it until I read it on that Achewood/Roast Beef page.

It's amazing how much I actually do--I'm noticing now that I have to consider not being here, ever again, and having to write it all down, step-by-step. I'm holding this system together with bubblegum and bailing wire.

I've been thinking the same thing. When they ask, "Has your life improved in the last four years?" I have to think, uhhh, yeah, if you call quadrupling my income an improvement. And I don't even have a degree.