Rumors and Truth
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080901/...palin_daughter

Looks like Gov Palin's daughter is pregnant right now.

Um, so what. She has kids who are being kids. Kids do the damnedest things. They drink, experiment with drugs, have sex, and generally test the waters of life.

I don't see why this is newsworthy, or why it will impact the vice presidency if McCain is elected. Oh, other then I can definitely relate to this ladies family life a little bit.

This all reminds me of an old quote attributed to Samuel Clemens. "If you don't read the newspapers you are uninformed, if you do read the newspapers you are misinformed."

Not much I hate in this life, I sometimes hate the media.

I think it rebuts perfectly that nasty rumor that Palin hid her daughter's pregnancy and used it as her own. I find spreading false rumors for political gain repugnant and telling the truth refreshing. Obviously Mrs Palin felt the same way or she would not have made this announcement.

McCain is trying to sell her to conservatives as an effective traditional mother and politician who is able to balance family and career. While parents may not be responsible for the actions of adult children, they are held responsible for their underage children.

McCain's camp says that he knew about all of this and chose her anyway. Personally, I think that's bullshit.

While it's refreshing to see a Republican sex scandal that does not directly involve the candidate, it's still trouble.

BTW, determining the age of a fetus is not an exact science, so the "she couldn't be pregnant then because she's pregnant now" argument may not fly.

I'm not sure if even liberals would be able to ignore something like this.

I agree its trouble but it does not speak of Palin herself as the one committing the subterfuge.

Some may find pregnancy at this age morally repugnant, but the age of consent in Alaska is 16. This is the age at which an individual may consent to have sex with someone over 18, legally. I am not sure underage would apply to her daughter if you are going by the legal definition for that state. The minimum age to marry in Alaska is 18. People under the age of 18 can marry with the consent of both parents.

Again, one of the reasons for her selection was her appeal to social conservatives, with the implication that she could be a mother of 4 underage children (1 with special needs) and manage the number two job in the US. This incident does not support that. Will her husband be Mr. Mom while she is VP or will she require a nanny? Who will care for her baby when she travels overseas, especially to countries to which embassy personnel are discouraged from bringing dependents.

Most liberals and real libertarians won't care, figuring that anyone has the right to mess up their own family, but social conservatives will have a mental image of the baby crying for his mother while she boards Air Force Two. The fact that she already has a family crisis while simply a state governor is not going to reassure anyone.

From here

Do you think Obama's kids will be crying for their Daddy when he boards Airforce 1?

Moot point, the girl is 17 and could have been 16 at the time of the event depending on her exact BD which would have been the legal age of consent. Statutory rape does not apply.

How many of your good friends are social conservatives, Rich? I posit that you have no idea what one would think.

She would be considered underage, if she needs the consent of her parents to get married.

I wonder if Palin secretly wishes now that she had taught her daughter to use birth control...since the abstinence teachings obviously didn't work.

That is not how the law reads BC. There are two different laws and they do not necessarily work well together. ;)

If a liberal has a daughter who accidentally gets pregnant while using birth control, do they secretly wish they had taught the kid abstinence, since the birth control thing obviously didn't work?

Most people genuinely believe what they believe, across the board, and it's foolishly partisan to assume they don't.

So this isn't what the law is in Alaska?

I guess it depends what you mean by underage, underage to have sex and get pregnant? Nope! Underage to get married ? ... yep!

No, it's not foolish. The liberal VP-candidate parent might wish something like that, and a host of other things when faced with such a situation. However, as a liberal, the parent and his/her child are free to choose from a variety options to deal with the situation, without looking hypocritical.

Exactly what is the scandal? Where she and most Americans come from, an abortion would be the scandal. I think liberals will be the only ones not ignoring this. From here it looks like a family addressing a problem inside the bounds of their belief system.

By "variety of options," one can really only assume that you mean abortion, since pretty much every other option is available to the non-hypocritical conservative. And again, you are assuming that the big concern would be looking hypocritical.

Let's say someone does something horrible to your family. Do you secretly wish you could murder them, but don't only because you have publicly spoken against murder in the past--or do you genuinely believe that murder is wrong, and the fact that you are in difficult circumstances doesn't change that?

We're still talking about politicians, aren't we? Because looking hypocritical is a pretty big concern when running for office.

Yes, I meant abortion--and adoption, and the daughter raising her child as a single parent. I don't think adoption is available as a hypocrite-free option to the conservative politician.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to prove with your analogy. Are you saying that Palin is so pure in her beliefs, that she could never regret her decisions leading up to her daughter's situation? Are you equating birth control with murder?

And there's the rub. Currently, the Feds only fund abstinence-only education instead of ABC. Whether she likes it or not, the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out against abstinence-only education, deeming it less effective and safe than including contraception.

The federal government, however, has tied conditions to it's funding contrary to the opinions of most experts due to social bias. Schools are not even given a choice.

Her personal situation only highlights the fact that she's in denial about teen sexuality. The fact that her daughter is getting married is nice, but ignores the fact that marriage due to pregnancy is not the recipe for a lasting marriage, and that girls and boys do not always have sex with individuals that they would choose as lifelong partners in marriage.

I'm saying this is not the scandal that some people want it to be. She believes that teaching birth control methods in schools will encourage teens to have more sex, and she believes that abortion should be illegal. I happen to disagree with her on both points, but the fact remains that she is reacting to this situation in a manner completely in line with her belief system.

I'm saying I don't think she "secretly wishes" that she had encouraged her daughter to use birth control--and to suggest that she does implies that her daughter's pregnancy 'serves her right,' and that the only reason she is against birth control education is because she was too stubborn to imagine what it would be like to experience an unwanted pregnancy in her own family. I think it's patronizing, and like I said earlier, partisan to the point of cruelty.

My analogy was attempting to draw a comparison with some moral belief that I guessed you would feel strongly about, just as she feels strongly against abortion and birth control education. I don't know if she regrets her childrearing decisions or not, but I would say that her behavior certainly doesn't indicate a change of heart, so speculating about it beyond that is at best irrelevant and at worst haughty. When you say

you are saying that she is not "free to choose" a path that you believe is ethical, for the specific reason that she would appear hypocritical. I'm saying she has already chosen not to follow those paths because she believes them to be unethical, and for no other reason.

If her daughter had an abortion, everyone would be screaming that she was a hypocrite. Because her daughter is going to keep the baby, everyone is screaming... that she's still a hypocrite, but one who is so desperate not to appear hypocritical that she will take the genuine path? That sneaky, sneaky politician.

All of which are reasons why you think she is wrong, and for the record I agree with you. But her own daughter's pregnancy doesn't illustrate that any better or worse than any other teen girl's pregnancy.

And furthermore, it still doesn't make it a scandal--if anything, this whole thing may very well give her a boost among social conservatives, because she's walking the talk, 100%.

Anchorage Daily News, covering the gubernatorial election in 2006:

In all of the politics threads, UT is my hero. That is all.

Okay. So basically what you're saying is you thought my remark was mean.

The thing is, Palin's stances on these issues make me angry. So sure, it was meant partly to be mean. But haughty? Uh uh. I feel too strongly about the importance of sex education to just have a "haughty" attitude about her daughter's situation. Maybe Palin hasn't ever wished she did things differently, but I do. And since she's running for second in command of the country I live in, I feel like it's my business.

The fact that her 17 year old got preggers does not refute it. It really means nothing more than her 17 year old had un-protected sex. I mean really weren't you 17 once? Did your parents control your actions when you were 17? Have you heard the 17 yr old on this very forum talk about what they have done? Drugs and sex have been part of it. Why have their parents not controlled them and prevented it? Why attack the girl, why didn't the boy wear a condom? No parent controls what their 17 year olds do. I have been through it twice with 2 kids and we have another about to be 17. How many 17 year olds do you have?



Who cares. That is their problem. Who cares for the babies of our deployed and deploying soldiers, sailors, marines, and AF personel? Who cares if he becomes Mr. Mom. Sounds like a personal choice they made when they got into the race as a family. Who cares if they have to hire a nanny. Why don't you think women should be successful and still have a family? You don't think they can do both? She has already proven that she can do both.

Who says she "messed up her family"? You think that plenty of normal families have not gone what they are going through? Or is the fact that her 17 yr old made some poor decisions make them different. Social Conservatives will more likely look at them and think at least they supported her 17 yr old in her pregnancy and did not run out and get an abortion. Most people who support her in her run will not focus on some fantasy of her baby crying while she boards a plane.

I still don't get why you are perpetrating the myth that a 5 month pregnant teen is a crisis. It is a crisis come and gone. The crisis occurred when they found out she was preggers, not 5 months after that. Or are state governors not allowed to have family crisises. Maybe you think they should just not have families. Hey, let's take a look at the things Clinton did while he was governor and see if any of them could be raised to the level of a "family crisis".

My fear is that, unfortunately, as a result of this VERY high profile teen pregnancy, teen pregnancy rates will climb. Thats not a good thing.

What's the big deal, especially if the daughter is getting married? I would assume that the daughter will set up housekeeping somewhere with her new husband, not move in with Mom and Dad. So who cares if Grandma has to go somewhere on Air Force 2? The child's mother is traditionally the one responsible for her own child. And if Grandma (and Grandpa) want to slip the newlyweds a few bucks, so they can buy their own home in Alaska or anywhere else, who cares about that either?

Did/do you have the same fears wrt Jamie Lynn Spears' pregnancy?

The rates actually started to increase a bit after that one....this one will only add to its impact. Rates had been in decline since 1991.

I dont mean to demonize teen pregnacy, but there are negatives associated with it....and those negatives are even more pronounced when the girl does not come from a rich family.

Do those pregnancy rates include abortions? That is, is it that the overall pregnancy rate is going up, or the rate of teen abortions is going down?

Abortion rates have fallen.

Could we maybe get a link?

Cool, I havn't read that article.
How about something recent enough to show the impact of JLS pregnancy?

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/heal...us-reports.htm

Not a direct correlation, but the numbers are up.

A more current article, but same report.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/07/10...ncy/index.html

Thanks!
I'm trying to find the actual data on the cdc site, but can't seem to find anything post 2005 (although the article you linked has cdc data from 2006). Am I just blind?
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/teenbrth.htm

I will amend that this statement is not backed up by any data. I made a quick assumption, however, it still does not change my viewpoint that Palins daughters pregnancy will only add fuel to the fire of the increasing rates.

There is no evidence to support that statement.

Its pretty hard to find evidence for something that hasnt happened yet.

But since teen pregnancies have been on the rise for the last couple of years, a high profile pregnancy like this might only help to increase its acceptability.

I do hope, though, that it will bring to the forefront that giving teens good information about sex and contraceptives is better than telling them to just dont do it.

I still don't buy it. That is like saying there was a spike in drunk driving when Princess Di died. Just because the daughter of a high profile person has a teen pregnancy there would be no way to prove, much less measure any direct correlation with teen preg rates.

Some woman on the news has a kid that got knocked up. That won't change the decisions of the teens in the back row seat of the van. Not at all.

"But mom! Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnant!" :lol2:

comedy gold!

My kid's don't know who Bristol Palin is, but watched the show Jamie Lynn Spears was on regularly... Her pregnancy was a great opportunity to talk about such things with my kids, several times actually...

I think events like this provide a great chance for parents to talk to their kids about it. Everyone should follow your actions in that regard.

I felt like that was a bad example as well.

Whether or not these high-profile teen pregnancies/births result in higher rates, my concern is that they send the message that it's okay for teens to give birth in this day and age.

Yes, it happens, it's always happened. But IMO, it's NOT okay. I'll appeal to everyone's common sense here, and state that most teen mothers do not receive the level of emotional and financial support that the Spearses and the Palins are assumed to be able to provide to their teen mother family members.

When I was in high school (80s), there were so many pregnant girls that they started a separate school on our campus for them to attend. I don't know how many stuck with it, but the program ended before I reached my senior year. Sex education was never part of our curriculum in regular high school.

To me, the very fact that Ms. Palin is able to run for VP with her views toward women's and girls' reproductive rights is worse than ironic; it's a slap in the face of the strides that (should) have been made over the past four decades.

Wait a minute. she doesn't share your beliefs and priorities so she shouldn't be eligible for office? please tell me that isn't what you meant, because that is no different than a christian sitting at home saying the reverse of obama. that misses the whole point of having an election to begin with.

Absolutely. Young people are going to have sex, or not. It's happened since the beginning of time (gasp...even before television!) and, barring mind control, will continue to happen in the future.



Using the occasion to talk to your kids about sex...perfect! As a parent, isn't that the most you can do? Ultimately, the kids grow up and make their own decisions, but opening the lines of communication (i.e. education) is the best defense.

Certainly better than fire and brimstone and you better not have sex nor shall you have access to birth control because it will just make you have sex and don't watch TV or movies because you will want to have sex...blah blah blah.

Sex talk in my household?

"DONT get her pregnant"

Thats me to my teenage stepson.

I hope he listens.

I thought this thread was going to be about Fleetwood Mac.



sigh.

Eh no, that's not what I was trying to say. What I meant was that if it weren't for the advances in society that women have achieved, largely because of rights that Palin opposes, she wouldn't even have the chance to run for VP.

she opposes abortion. that has exactly zero to do with her ability to run for VP.

i'm pretty sure she supports a woman's right to work, right to vote, and things like that, so i'm not really sure what exactly you are saying.

Bush believes all those same things and we have not had abortion outlawed, madates to teach creationism in school, a ban on gay marriage, so I don't really see the problem. Esp as long as there is a Democratically controlled Congress. So many people don't understand how this Republic works. It would be worse to have a Democratically controlled Congress with a Democratic President, as bad as it was to have the opposit for 6 years of Bush.

Got this email from an old friend - just thought I'd let you guys have at it.

World News Daily? FFS, just because UG gives you a cup doesn't mean you have to drink the koolaid, buddy. Arcade at home, emulators and ROMs? Yeah, that's where I go to cite my political truthinessifications.

It is a shame I have to soil my deleted items box with crap like this.

I just posted it - that's all. Never said I agreed or disagreed with any of it. I must admit to finding some of it rather amusing tho.

It doesn't survive Snopes very well...

Thanks HM.