Girl pays price of tribal honor
 

Girl sentenced to gang-rape for brother's offence

Re: Girl pays price of tribal honor
 

There can be no doubt that this is horrible, but I hope the police aren't using goon tactics in arresting the relatives.

I don't quite understand
 

If the girl's brother committed the offense (walking with an unmarried girl from another tribe without a chaperone)
then why is it that HE isn't the one being gang-raped? I'm mostly serious. I think what we have here is a case where the village elder(s) had the hots for this girl and saw a way to have their fun.

That said, I'm against this type of "outside the law" enforcement even though we have a form of it here in the USA, wherein we allow the Indian tribes living on the reservations to police themselves (more or less) and even set up different rules for them (witness the casinos and tobacco sales). But what can (should) we do about it?
Send the NOW hags over there to protest and generally terrify the locals who will (I guarantee it) resent any US intrusion and probably even the press coverage. Should we send in the Marines? I don't think so.

If I were the President, I would let this become a non-issue and let the government of that country handle their own problems according to their laws. I fail to see the national interest in this incident, however deplorable it may be.

Brian

Well that's the honor-shame culture thing again. I'm sure the idea is that their entire family is to be shamed, and in a culture that doesn't respect women, dishonoring him is much more important than what she gets. After all, she is a lowly woman.

Topic hijacking, but, they are outside the law because they fall into a weird place Constitutionally. The Big C reads that we shall have no nations w/in our borders. But, we violated treaties w/ the Native American nations and then gobbled up their prime real estate. That's why they get to do the whole casino/tobacco thing.
back on topic:
That kinda horseshit should never happen and I think the old eye-for-an-eye model of justice is appropriate in this case. But, something to ponder:
who would design and build a gang raping machine? My guess: Lockheed-Martin or Boeing. Maybe Colt.

This girl was raped because she is viewed not as a human with basic rights, but as a merely a female who is property. The judgement to gang rape was seen as no different than any property damage. It is a crime. At least Pakistan officially views this as criminal, the practices of justice and protection are another story.

The International Criminal Court has been established, just this week, to try crimes against humanity, genocide and crimes of war. And specifically is charged to protect those not given full protection under the law of their nation. Will it work? Who knows. Is it more evidence of globalization, sure. But maybe the good kind. The kind that attempts to protect individual human rights in the face of violent and abusive practice.


The US initially supported the court, signed by Clinton, but now the Bush Adminstration has removed the US signature. (Not good for war time strategy or perhaps too many skeletons in the closet, eh Kissinger?...)

I knew that already. I was just making a point.

Already done. I don't know the name of the manufacturer but it's the same one that makes the Sybian.
It's powered by a sewing machine motor and a system of articulated arms that provide a rythmic back and forth motion with a speed adjustment and an attachment for a phallic object. (family board, ya know)

If I can find my photo of it, I'll post it.

Brian

And you will all thank me when I open my casino and smoke shop in the near future. ;)

Dearest BrianR, now this NOW Hag is seething.
The fact that this violence seems to titilate you makes me sick. Yea, but she was probably just a hottie that they needed an excuse to fuck down to size. Fun, eh?

Yeah, Its not going to negatively impact your consumer goods, or stock prices and its not like it would ever happen again, or even ever happen here. This is only one primitive girl and she didnt even die or anything. It would understandably elude anyone with out a conscious.

Just out of curiosity, are you two people? I find it interesting that a NOW member would list "fireman" as one of her occupations. (Instead of "firefighter", that is).

toby

I am way more than two.

How is that possible?

Because warch is pizzimp. Don't question her. I'll have to beat you up. :)

found it!
 

But I feel that the post properly belongs in Quality Images

Go there and meet your replacement

Brian

This is a key statement here. I apologize for my anger, which, as usual, resulted in non-constructive sarcasm...(and a desire for hard liquor and cigarettes)

I think this incident reveals a global threat of injustice and violence against segregated groups- In this case two groups- women and a "lower caste". I agree with the belief that injustice/violence anywhere is a threat to justice/peace everywhere. And my interest goes beyond national to personal, because I am a member of one of the groups.

This is globalization. And this is why the UN is grinding its International Criminal Court into existence- To prosecute when nations fail to. Here Pakistan is making the motions, but probably only because the world is aware and watching. So its something.

So as a slight hijack, what do you think about the US attempt to have American peacekeepers exempt from ICC prosecution? The Bush Admin backed down a bit, the result being a temp one year exemption- Allowing the ICC to at least proceed in formation. But are American peacekeepers above law? Is the US the world's police, with its own justice? What do you think?

As the definition of war gets shifted and redefined, so do the definitions of crime, soldier, terrorism, protest, and martyr. I welcome the creation of the ICC, I think its necessary, but its influence? We'll see.

Warch - I forgive you.

The ICC on the other hand. I believe it's sole function, notwithstanding the fanfare, is to prosecute the United States for alleged wrongdoing which is pretty much whatever the court says it is. There was a note in an article, but I forget where, which detailed these "crimes" to include any peacekeeping or democratic counselling. Even advocating trials for the aforementioned rapists (I DO call them that) could be seen by this kangaroo court as an international crime.

The President is correct to keep us out of this. Somewhere in the Constitution is a proviso that the Congress shall make no law which subjects the American People(tm) to rule by any other body than the US government or state government. Which also calls into question the UN Charter but that can be another thread.

Brian

Well, we are technically re-in this. There is a 12 month Security council deferral for peacekeeping troops. I really think this legal body will be of substance and prove to be a useful peacekeeping tool. It will take time, but I think this is a pretty important step and forum- an attempt beyond the UN security council- at global justice. If you have international, global policing forces, you need international, global devices for justice on more than an ad hoc, or nation to nation basis. And for it to be just and for it to function, the cops can't be above the law. But understandably the US wants no added restrictions on their powers and military choices.

And so they dance...

(Many US citizens, charged with crimes in other countries, have been tried,convicted,and are serving sentences under foreign laws- nations with processes quite different from the closely aligned Rome Treaty and US constitution. And the process outlined in the Rome Treaty is much more protective of individual rights, than a US military tribunal.)

This just in:

Four rapists and two of the tribal council who authorized the gang rape have been sentenced to death by hanging.

Apparently they also sodomized the brother to punish him for having relations with a higher caste woman of their family.

Meanwhile, the rape victim and her family have received threats of death to themselves if the rapists are hanged.

Apparently, tent trash is a higher caste in Pakistan. Jerry Springer must be going nuts trying to book this Mastoi clan.

How did I miss that gem of misinformation? The sole purpose of the ICC is to deal with genocide type events(check the documents for exact definitions) and only in cases where the counties own legal systems refuse to. While I agree many UN bodies become vehicles for marginal factions the ICC would have *nothing* to do with this rape or US peacekeeping operations unless solid evidence of genocide by US troops could be found.

What the ... ?
 

Its like Islamic Jerry Springer

Oh crap! We've exported Jerry Springer to Aus? Now I know why they hate us.

Better than starbucks. We're not going to forgive you for that.

Is that why you won't respond to my email or post on the Cities board?

Jag - tell me again why Starbucks is bad? Sure it's overpriced, but it's not like they can drive all other coffee off the market.

Why is Starbucks bad? Well, they have shoddy labor practices, they actively seek out to shut down local coffee shops by flooding the area with Starbucks, and they are a great example of cultural imperialism. If you want to know more than that, check No Logo by Naomi Klein. That should explain a little more.

1) How are their policies shittier than any other retail outlet?

2) The only local outlet around my particular area that is not Starbucks has shitty coffee, offered in styrofoam cups, does not sell fresh beans, has a crappy tile floor, uncomfortable seating, no sense of style whatsoever, and is only open until 2pm. Please I beg of you, replace this with a Starbucks.

$1.25 bad coffee I don't want to drink is NOT better than $3 latte that I love.

3) Coffee didn't start in the US, isn't grown in the US, and in Seattle is probably the farthest point in the US from where most coffee IS grown. Coffee makes for a cash crop in South America, Africa, Central America, places which really need cash crops.

Erm...*contiguous US"...let's not forget AK and HI. :-)

Why is starbucks bad?
Well to add to what headsplice said....
Yes, they are an evil company, yes; its very good case of cultural imperialism but most importantly it’s so goddamn arrogant. One thing (with some exceptions) I think I can safely say is that the vast majority of the US has nowhere near the coffee culture of Europe.
My point entirely! That kinda of café lifestyle (and cafe latte to sell your soul for) simply does not exist, nor does the quality of coffee. Same applies here, Melbourne’s in particular has huge immigrant populations for Europe and thus we have a fantastic inner city cafe culture (which is where I spend most of my weekends). Entire plazas, little alleys full of made on the spot fresh and delicious food and the best coffee you can dream of in truly great surroundings. Live jazz in the evenings, the streets are permanently closed and full of tables, grab a group of friends and lap it up, no better way to spend a balmy evening.
Out of curiosity I tried starbucks, yes, it’s extremely overprice to stat with but the coffee is SHIT I cannot emphasize that enough, it was the most cruddy tasting weak POS I've ever come across. Some of the street stalls make better coffee, I thought I was drinking Nescafe for a second. In short, it’s an arrogant eyesore. It doesn't seem to be doing that well, so with any luck it'll close down sooner or later. It certainly hasn't dented the cafes, I’m not the slightest bit surprised.

Depends on how you look at it.

The major US cities have the little cafes where people sip lattes and watch the world pass by. Some have more than others, of course. (I'd rate our own city as "medium.")

Then you have another type of coffee culture, which occurs all over the US, at McDonalds, at restaurants and diners, everywhere. People get together (primarily older adults), sit around and drink coffee, and talk about the world in general. So I'd say it's definitely a coffee culture, just not like the Europeans.

Okay...this paragraph confuses me, jag. Are you saying that a cafe lifestyle does not exist here? (Which as I mentioned above, does exist.) And are you saying that the quality of coffee does not exist here as well? As far as quality of coffee, that's merely your opinion. You've never been to the States, our coffee comes from outside the States, and I really hope you're not basing your opinion on Folgers or Starbucks. And don't forget...most of coffee is water. :)

I don't know if you were trying to hang Nescafe on the US, but Nescafe is made by Nestle...a Swiss company. (I should know, as my stepdad has worked for them for almost 39 years. If you eat Bit-O-Honey or Laffy Taffy, it comes off his machine.)

I'm curious jag...what does an 8-12 ounce cup of coffee go for down there in Australia? Starbucks charges $1.80 for a 20 oz. cup. Dunkin Donuts runs about $1.50. Some of the shops on South Street run $1 and up.

Philadelphia is an interesting beast. If you ever drive through our city, you will notice that there are nowhere near as many chain places (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc.) as there are in other major cities. It was bizarre when I first moved here, but all of them seem to have a place up at Franklin Mills, so I'm covered. :) (I can't speak on the suburbs...maybe the chains are more prolific out there.)

To be honest jag, I doubt that Starbucks will leave Australia, especially if it begins to "localize" itself. (Like what McDonalds does...offering things that are of interest to the consumers of an area they are serving. For example, offering a McLobster sandwich in New England.) Obviously, Starbucks thinks they've found a market there in your land, and I'm sure some people are going to drink it up. If your local shops make a fine cup of joe, they probably won't have anything to worry about. Of course, when Starbucks kept putting up new stores in Chicago, the people went ballistic, and started vandalizing stores before they would open. (Now that WAS excess IMO...but apparently they figured they had a niche there.)

Been to Europe and compared? As fro quality of coffee across the Atlantic my opinion is based on the (in some cases almost violent) reactions to lack of decent coffee in America. best example I can think of is the entire crew that went with an exhibition round the US on tour with a collection of our National Gallery. I'm sure there are exceptions but is there anyone here that has lived in both who can offer an opinion? As for sitting in mcdonalds, if you think that counts you don't understand what i'm talking about by a mile.

No, it’s just that Nescafe is shite coffee, i'm well aware its swiss.

ounce? Damn backward imperial measurements :p ;) Average cup of coffee here is AU$2.50 (US$1.30). How many ounces that is I’d have no idea. More creative coffees (ice-cream, mocha, hundreds of varieties vary from place to place) can get up to AU$3 or so, but very, very rarely higher.

I doubt' it'll leave too, some people who naturally go past it will probably stop by for a quick coffee but our cbd is full of little plazas full of beautiful cafes, most overlap with a business disctrict. Between that and places like degraves where I live on the weekend the majority of the population is pretty damn happy with the ways things are. Starbucks won't be able to compete with the existing culture, it’s not something a corporation like that can do. We also have hudsons coffee which I believe is American. I often go past it on the way to school, they make a reasonable triple espresso (good for hangovers and pre exam) but I wouldn’t go out of my way to get there like I would my usual haunts.

Sometimes I wonder if you're really trying to be funny. "Starbucks sucks because they're so arrogant. Also, they're not good enough for us upper-crust <I>real</I> coffe drinkers who know the difference between good European coffee and American swill. Of course, I've never been to America, but I have a pretty good idea."

So <I>who's</I> arrogant? I fail to see the arrogance behind trying to expand into other markets. If everyone else has your same opinion, and no one goes there, then yes, they'll close up shop. But why are you so upset about their mere presence, if, as you say, they have no chance of lasting there?

I think I understand perfectly well what you are talking about.

You originally used the term "coffee culture." When you said that, I envisioned an umbrella group under which the "cafe culture" and the American variant that I mentioned are covered. As far as the "cafe" aspect, no, I haven't been to Europe, but I'd say I have a pretty good understanding of it.

Last I checked, there isn't an "official" coffee culture. And when were you last in Europe?

Hmmm...I dunno how you metric folks measure your coffee. 8 ounces (a standard cup of coffee here) is a half-pint (or about 237 mL).

Don't be so sure. Some lamented the arrival of Starbucks when it came to St. Louis 4 years ago. Starbucks has survived, the good coffee shops that were there before Starbucks survived. The Starbucks on South Street here in Philadelphia seems to exist peacefully with Cosi (another chain coffee shop) and the local haunts. Why? Because Starbucks offers some things the local haunts don't and vice versa. Maybe you and your crew don't like Starbucks coffee. Hey, that's cool. But I'd wager that quite a few Melburnians are going to fall in love with that coffee, or will want a Frappaccino. Your local shops will probably live long, Starbucks will live long, and it'll be one big happy-ass walk hand in hand down Main Street.

You exported Kylie Minogue, Kajagoogoo, and Crocodile Dundee...we're just returning the favor. ;)

Well, in any case, I suspect that anti-g's real hatred of Starbucks comes from the fact that it dares not to market itself to the lower-middle-class. Sure, McDonalds is bad, but it's also kinda proletariat... if for no other reason than that the proletariat seems to enjoy eating there. But no honest worker-type would be seen in a Starbucks, or if they were there, at least they wouldn't sit down.

Well, the Acme at 10th and Passyunk in South Philly has a Starbucks in it. Frapps for the masses? ;)

"Hey yo...gimme one of doze frappaccinas. You ain't gonna wooder dat down are ya? Don't buss my bawls he-yah."

Don't you see? Starbucks has you addicts wrapped around its proverbial finger. Caffeine is a drug! And Starbucks is its Corporate Pusher!!! They're milking you for all you're worth, and then playing with your brain chemistry to force you to drink more.

Your minds are not your own. Down with coffee!! Stop corporate mind control NOW!

Juju, you are an unAmerican Commie Pinko. I am calling the FBI field office in Little Rock as soon as I finish this.

"Aw shit, now I got maple nut scone crumbs all over my work order."

Oh shit...my bad. Kajagoogoo are from the UK. So, substitute Silverchair for them. :)

I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill!

Oh, so now you quote subversive Rush lyrics...go on, keep digging that hole, buddy.

Hardly a "real' Starbucks.

The Akammie Store in King of Prussia (proper local Fluffya pronunciation; three full syllables and may be nearly indistinguishable from the name of the famous content aggregator Akamai. The "store" may not be omitted) made space for a "Starbucks" too...even though there's a real Starbucks (that used to be an Arby's) in KoP up the road a block or two.

When will the Akammie Store Starbucks have WiFi? Not in our lifetime. :-)

Bloody typical, its been really, really windy all day here, i went to reply about 5 hourws ago and between me typing and hitting reply wind damaged the ethernet line running though the roof. (socket)

ok, ok point taken.....

Coffee came from Europe, the best coffee still does. After god knows how long America produces the McDonalds resilient for coffee and then because its the first half decent coffee around, see UTs earlier comment, try to export it to places that have had better coffee for decades. I'm basing my opinion of the opinion of over 60 or so people that toured all over the US, and that is just one example. If I felt like it I’m sure I could collect one hell of allot more. Why am I upset? Look back, the original comment was an extension of a joke about jerry Springer. I haven’t firebombed the place yet. But its a bit like me moving into Philly and opening a cheese steak shop. While not the case here, getting back to cultural imperialism, if it is successful it kills not only local culture and local creativity built up over decades. That alone is depressing. Here it also provides an outlet for new music acts to get some airtime and the occasional gig as well as undoubtably the best place to hang out.

Coffee, cafe, for the purpose of this one and the same. A cafe atmosphere is as much about the surrounds as the coffee itself. Somehow McDonald just doesn't do that for me. Neither does star bucks.

I'm sure it'll survive, I’m nearly 100% sure it won't have an impact on the existing cafes, it sure as hell hasn't so far but otherwise *shrugs* just another blot on the landscape.

Up with liquid pot er... Yerba Mate' and by extension Rush and freewill

Coffee is of African origin and the Arabs were the first to roast and brew it. So its you coffee drinkers that need to walk to your nearest TIPS informant and turn yourselves in for un-American activities.

Oh? Exactly which part of Europe does coffee come from?
Read your history. The Europeans found out about coffee from the Arabs, who had been drinking it for centuries.Talk about "cultural imperialism..."

See?? SEE!?!? If you drink coffee, the terrorists have already won!

Well, it's probably the closest South Philly will get to a real Starbucks. The closest we have to real Starbucks up here is the Acme in Bensalem, and the B&N at Oxford Valley. But if they're putting a Krispy Kreme in on Cottman, I have hope that Starbucks will slip a store in along Bustleton.

Are you referring to the Starbucks shop on DeKalb Pike (north of Valley Forge Center, right)? I sat at that one for about 2 hours one day. I had an interview out there with my previous employer, and they had discussed bringing me back in later that day for a second one. Rather than go all the way back home, I sat around at Starbucks for a few hours, drove around Norristown and Bridgeport, then down to Paoli. They decided to bring me back the next day...bastards.

You got me on that one. :)

The Philadelphia FBI field office can be reached at (215) 418-4000. :)

Pardon me maggie, how about coffee as we know it instead. Arabic coffee is a very different beast. Turkish is nice. Once in a blue moon. If you cannot see a difference between that and starbucks in terms of cultural imperialism.........

"Europeans invented coffee"="Europeans invented coffee as we know it" is a bit of a strech, but let it pass. Of course, Europeans also invented arabic numerals..."as we know them". :-)

Syc, you commie pinko!

you live in Lower Bucks or upper NE? I was just there for two whole days and you didn't even say hi!

You can't be my friend anymore.

Torresdale/Morrell Park...near Frankford-Torresdale Hospital.

Sorry Brian...I was in the house most of the weekend...didn't see any motorcycle guys in leather riding around the few times I was out. :)

No maggie, they didn't. Arabic coffee and european coffee are very different. Arabic numerals have not changed much at all.

You haven't shown that Starbucks has done anything wrong, you've just shown that different people in different countries have different tastes.

I happen to think American beer tastes like watered-down piss. I think it's hilarious to watch all of our beer commercials, and each one pretends like it's actually any different than the others. They all suck ass.. give me a good import beer any day; something with a little gravitas.

However, most of my fellow countrymen must disagree with me, because American beers happen to be very popular over here. You could even say there's an American beer culture.. going to the local bar on a Monday night to drink Bud Light and watch football, etc. I bet I could go to any of those places and find 60 people who drink nothing but American beer because they think imported beer is disgusting.

Now, there is a local pub here that doesn't serve American beer, period. Not even microbrews. They flat out refuse, because they share my feelings on the subject. Are they arrogant for serving only imported beer in a market that overwhelmingly prefers domestic fare? Of course not.. they're offering something a little different to those who happen to appreciate such a thing.

Most people here would never go into the place, but who gives a rat's ass? All of the places can coexist, serving their own markets.

And don't try to give some blanket dismissal of the comparison by saying "well, they're not some big corporation." That's not the point.. not the whole point, anyway. You're trying to say that Starbuck's is arrogant for opening into foreign markets where the locals in their little microcosm simply are above and beyond such slop. Well, you admit yourself, they're probably there to stay, so obviously there are enough people who disagree.

By the way, would this have anything to do with why you're jittery about Starbuck's?

They've both changed enough that they're identifiably different, yet both still work the same basic way. The glyphs are noticably different (especially 2, 3, 4 , 5 and 8), and the further back you go in time the more different they are, even before we get into differences in writing direction, and changes that happened to the glyphs of the original Indian system as it passed though Arab hands to the West.

The underlying principle of radix-10 positional representation is indeed constant, as is "brewing coffee beans in water to make a beverage".

Are you actually saying the differences between the coffees are somehow "more different" than the differences between arabic numerals as used in Arabic and as they are used in English and in Europe? We're way beyond "apples and oranges" here. Drink some coffee or something.

The 60 peopkle was the largest anecdotal saple i could find. Oddly enough i haven't funded a nationwide survey of the happiness with american coffee amounst visitors from Australia. Thus i ahve to stick with anecdotals. I've never heard anyone say anything but crap, and thus i have no reason to beleive otherwise. I've stated why i think its arrogant, i'm not going to repeat myself.

COFFEE! YOU IDIOTS ARE ARGUING ABOUT <b>COFFEE!</b>

It <b>ALL</b> sucks.

That was the last post in this thread on topic, I think.

I suppose this thread may demonstrate why juries sometimes deliberate for weeks. All it takes is for some idiot to start debating what coffee tastes best and which brand exemplifies cultural imperialism. :rolleyes: