Gas Prices: Who's to Blame?
 

Who do you blame for the recent increase in the price of oil and of gasoline?

As part of my job, I read a lot of articles on the cost of energy. Everyone is blaming someone, but no one is taking the blame.

Who do you think is responsible? I've listed all those that I've seen pointed at in recent weeks, though very few seem to be looking in the mirror.

Some of the categories overlap.

I also blame tw, but thats just me :P

A friend of mine was out on his boat last weekend. A friend of his who was further out on another boat called him and told him to come to where he was, there was something he had to see. When he got there, it was about 40-50 oil barges sitting waiting for the price of oil to go up. apparently, the price is set when they hit the dock, not when they leave the home port. how fucked up is that?

"How much will this cost?"
"How much have you got?"

I voted 'other'. It's all consumers, not just US. Humanity is seeing the tip of the iceberg w.r.t. our dependence on fossil fuels.

I blame everybody who was in a position to do something about US dependence on oil in the late 1970s and didn't.

I voted, but I have reservations about the negative connotations of the word "blame." Sure, it hurts in the short term, but the price of oil going up is inevitable and necessary. The price spiking is the only thing that's ever going to push alternative fuels beyond a curiosity.

I think (but don't actually know) that market speculators, the weak dollar, and increased demand from China caused the recent spike.

But I voted for consumers because we are a bunch of gluttons with oil, especially in the US, and our waste of oil is going to bite us back.

30% Greater demand ie China, India and others
15% Dollar weakness
15% Iranian asshattery
15% Hesitation over ANWR, oceanic, shale drilling
10% Refinery capacity
5% Failure of Iraq to come online at greater capacity
5% General inflationary pressure
5% Failure of ethanol as a moderating factor
3% Conservation failures
2% Oil company profiteering

DING DING DING DING! :thumbsup:

Spexx, I haven't heard from you in a while. How are things?

Clodfobble, I used the word "blame" because that's what everyone seems to be doing - blaming everyone but themselves.

I'd blame me, except that I know it was that other guy's fault.

Gordon Brown.
Well the media in this country reckon he is personally responsible for everything from knife crime to obesity to the teenage pregnancy rate (he must have a hell of a Saturday night!)

Then again, Ken Livingstone was responsible for London's crime rate, pollution, the overspend on the 2012 Olympics and Wagon Wheels getting smaller, so it might have been his fault too.

I like this new blame game. I'm going to start blaming Boris Johnson for the recent spate of acid reflux attacks occurring in my oesophagus. And for the noise pollution that stops me sleeping every Sunday night (also known as HM bringing people home from Open Mike Night). I demand action!

Wow, lots of choices.... since I drive an suv I just assumed it was my fault...

If it's blame you're looking for, why not blame George W Bush? Everyone seems to blame him for everything else.

I just read spudcon's comment, then saw this in an article on denverpost.com:

Maybe she'll come here and vote in our poll.

Yea, I agree, Bush. Well not really because that is sort of stupid. Like Pelosi is sort of pulling a Cheney (ala 9/11 and Iraq) and trying to link Bush/Cheney to the price of gas, if she repeats it enough people will begin to believe it.

I just had to vote for myself, cause, well it was there.

This was a very good example why the price is to high (hit listen now and enjoy):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=91573893

TheMercenary, I was hoping someone would vote for you.

I don't think prices are too high - I think they could go a little higher.

"George Bush and Dick Cheney and "politicians getting rich off the backs of working people." Her anger is misplaced IMHO, but it is a convenient excuse for people when they are unsatisfied with the current executive branch.

Check out my NPR link. I think it was very good at exposing both sides of the extreme and the rationality of some recent proposals.

All of the above. Maybe with different discriminations than UT, but still. No one is blameless here.
Also, I heard that gasoline prices on the continent hit EU1.99/liter. That translates too...$17.96/gallon. So us USians should stop bitching ;)

At 1.55 euro/dollar, I get $11.73/gal - still quite high.

Can anyone confirm the 1.99 euro/liter price?

Environmental issues are taken more seriously in Europe, and public transport is better. Fuel revenues also pay for social care that you pay for separately.

Yes we pay more (far more) but you can't make a straight comparison because of the above. Not having a car (and not living in continental Europe anyway) I can't confirm or deny the prices. I know everyone moans about them though.

I read that the primary cause is basic supply and demand economics and that the low USD value is compounding the problem. I'll have to find the article tomorrow, but it's by a Nobel Laureate economist, so it's fairly reputable...

There were "gougers"* trying to charge £1.99 in parts of the UK (there was a fuel delivery strike), according to the BBC.

* If the market will bear the cost how is that wrong? People who cry gouging seem to be the same ones who cry about life being unfair.

That pricing is why free markets work so effectively. You would have us implement socialism, communism, or government subsidized prices?

Fictional example of speculation: Market parameters suggest that a severe oil shortage will exist this winter. But oil is currently plentiful. So we should keep oil prices down? Yes according to those foolishly blaming speculation (as promoted by extremist propaganda). Of course not if one believes in free markets.

With plentiful oil, only market prices can send proper messages throughout an economy. Even though oil is plentiful, speculators (working for the benefit of all) run prices up. The market now conserves all summer as instructed by market prices. Then vehicles and homes still have oil six months later.

Speculators are why prices send useful and constructive messages throughout an economy. Speculators are also blamed because 'Karl Rove' types broadcast more Rush Limbaugh propaganda. It works on the naive. Blame someone else. Those who don't understand or appreciate free markets will blindly believe propaganda - blame the speculators.

Those who understand, appreciate, learn, and advocate a free market knew immediately that speculators are the 'good' market forces being blamed by ignorant and self-serving political types. Propagandists directed this 'blame the speculators' message to same people who believed Saddam had WMDs.

Blame the speculators. Then another major reason for higher oil prices - ie falling dollar - is not blamed. A most significant reason for a 60% depreciated dollar: George Jr's administration including tax cuts, "Mission Accomplished", massive government spending including corporate welfare, fiscal mismanagement, encouraging Enron style accounting, protecting 40% too high drug prices, inflation, cost of living increases created by 'stimulating the economy', and other problems that have not yet hit the headlines. Most of the world is not suffering such massive price increases found in America.

Better to tell the naive how to think: blame speculators so that other reasons (ie falling dollar, uncooperative allies who are tired of America blaming everyone else, administration efforts to keep mileage standard down and make passenger cars heavier, etc) does not get blamed. Government that can create bogeymen does not get blamed.

Often those barges are queued; not waiting for price increases. We have burned all the good stuff. Oil all over the world is being held because of sour or heavy type. For example, we must now burn Caspian Sea oil - some of the most sour. The world was built mostly for light sweet crude and assumptions that oil companies will continue to keep prices so low and oil supplies high by innovating. We burned up all the easy stuff as if it would always exist.

Saudi Arabia managed to find another 10 million barrels to add to their exports. IOW a zero increase because Saudi Arabia has no more oil to export. We kept asking the Saudis to increase production while making zero effort to use that oil more efficiently (see repeated posts about the 70 Hp/Liter engine as one example). Reality, as predicted by T Boone Pickens in the 1970s, is now taking revenge.

Who do we blame? People who were warning of this problem for generations? People who stifled innovation to maximize profits? Or the larger number (most of us) who denied all this was coming - even ignored the same history lessons from the 1970s.

I blame the bean counters at GM. They should have listened to the electrical engineer who emailed his application in on a weekly basis.

Back then (when the problem was being created), email did not exist.

I blame Al Gore. He invented the internet.

Debunked. You have provided no support for this statement.

Nor has he provided support for this statement:

I think it's far too complex to assign blame to any one component of the problem. Personally, I think the central problem is that we have become culturally and economically dependant upon a substance which is geographically limited at its source. If there were oilfields in every country then we wouldn't have this problem :P This of course is the beauty of many of the alternative fuels: windpower is everywhere as is solar energy. Much as I'd like to blame GWB, I think that would be a tad unfair.

Hah! So it was Boris! Bastard!


For Sundae: don't know if you caught the Headcases series, but their boris Johnson is wonderful.



Sorry for the immense drift peeps, I'm done, you can go back to your intelligent and meaningful discussion :)

I don't have to. Remember, I am posting just like TheMercenary. However TheMercenary did lie about his service record which is why he does not defend himself. Lying to attack others is normal for TheMercenary who will not defend his military service claims posted many years ago.

Wow!

What are you doing, tw?

He's not doing anything.

GLATT is doing something, which is why he doesn't not deny that he isn't.

Sorry...I just woke up...could someone get me a cup of coffee? I feel like this thread has become some sort of acid trip...that, or it had a stroke.

Sycamore again posts irrelevant numbers because he did not grasp what was posted.

GM developed a 70 Hp/liter engine in the early 1970s. Honda, et al developed their 70 Hp/liter engines about 1992. 30 years later and 15 years after everyone else sells 70 Hp/liter engines, GM still does not sell 70 Hp/liter engines in all vehicles. Sycamore posts 1988 Honda numbers to prove that engine did not exist after 1992? That is proof? Sycamore - read numbers? 1992 is after 1988. Get in the game.

GM products, 13+ years after developing a the 70 HP/liter engine, had 10% LOWER performance, lower gas mileage, higher pollution, more interior noise, higher failure rates, higher production costs, etc. Sycamore also forgot to post the standard number for most 1988 GM products - only 52 Hp/liter - 17% less performance. No wonder GM would teeter on bankruptcy in 1991. Numbers before 1992 demonstrate GM products were worse even before 70 Hp/liter became the world standard. Sycamore – how do I make this any simpler?

I have probably confused Sycamore by claiming 1988 and 1992 are different years. Nine numbers and two paragraphs. Sycamore foolishly praised GM's 2008 J-car that is finally doing mid-1990 gas mileage numbers. GM's J-car was renamed after a long history of bad products. The Vega, Sunbird, Cavalier, and Cadillac Cimarron all were the same J-car platform. Cobalt is a J-car now renamed. Putting lipstick on a pig does not make a thoroughbred.

No wonder GM stock is now worth less today than in 1982. GM stifled technology for 30 years. GM opposed every higher mileage standards. It's still the J-car doing today what the world was doing 10 years ago. Sycamore again forgot to read (grasp) numbers before posting.

Of course, TheMercenary or UG would then call Sycamore a dumb fuck because he acted as one - buying and praising a GM product that is 10 years obsolete. But that is what they do - attack others.

Goddamnit, Merc and UG are bashing sycamore now!

UT, will you not intervene in the name of all that is decent?

Prove that claim tw. Where did I bash Sycamore?

Oh, and while you are at it, prove this one:

He didn't not say that you wouldn't have not already said it, PAST TENSE--pay attention! But that's not the style of the new Cellar. I guess you didn't not learn that in school.

See what happens when you use words like "blame" in the thread title?

Dear Cellar,

As posted previously in a number of threads by me and then further quoted by me in other threads, I have already covered all the information you are finally beginning to discuss now. If you were interested in facts and truth you would have listened and learned when facts were previously posted, but instead you insulted me for being intelligent enough to question those who do not answer and not being swayed by those who say "trust me". You dumb stupid poopoo heads then felt the need to respond with insults and name calling so now you must reap what you sow. Dics. Stinky rotten dics. With warts.

The question at hand which is before and is pressing at this current time in our future history is whether or not you have learned your lessons. The intelligent among you may have but I doubt you are intelligence. Cuz you're stupidz. And I'm smartz. MBA's think they're smartz but I'm smarterz. With only 7 minutes to spare mental midgets do nothing when prudent people would have responded more intelligently and done the correct and obvious thing becaue of reads sun tsu. Facts and strategies made apparents in Military Doctrines and other fun party tricks 101z tells us that scrambling jets immediately would have put bootz on the ground which would have served to force the misunderstood Arab Brethrenz back to the negotiating tablez quickly. So 2 then U shuld knowz by now that 70hp/L was always available from the earliest dayz and only neo-con conspiracies are to blame for our troubles. If theyz had just used diplomacies and given said engines to the Brethrenz then we not B fightin now. K?

Soz az I've now made abundantly clear uR stupidz fer not listenin B4. Check the footnotes. Speaking of footnotes - UT has major footfungases. Apparent this is Bcuz he has not provided proofz 2 da contrary. That iz da St8 of da cellar now bcuz that iz what da fungases want. No? Where is da proofz to da contrary?

Love,

Lookout

You know guys, I think that TW really has been onto something here. Plummeting through the depths of insanity is actually kind of fun.

Shut up, dickhead--I'M POSTING LIKE LOOKOUT. Ha, thought you had me there.

Liar. You've lied about your drumming experience. If it were true you would have provided proof already.

No, I was lying like YOU. I was posting as a child posts. You obviously know that, or you wouldn't be claiming to post a denial of what has been lied about by yourself when I posted it. Duh!

Obviously a misdirection promoted for the sake of not finding Bin Laden. I have caught your lie about not lying when you were lying! haHAA!

You can go suck an egg; but I only say that because it's exactly the type of thing YOU would say.

This animosity directed towards the most honest and unemotional posters, such as myself, which may be indicated and thus vindicated, and possibly irradicated, but certainly irritated is exactly... huh, what was i saying?

oh yeah, this is what the cellar has become because of UT's footfungus fetish. Prove it isn't true, I dare you. I dare you to prove that you posted proof to the contrary before this thread. You can't do it. Liar. with your lies and your lying lies, stinky liar.

News flash, Einstein: I'm rubber and you're glue. Do the math.

GM sucks because of people like you. See? that was sharp enough to stick in the rubber... er, nevermind.

You played right into my hands. Welcome to a little thing called OPPOSITE DAY.

genius

Just remember: 15% of all problems are directly traceable to shitty employees.

Well, Tommy, you certainly wrote a lot of words...words that mean nothing, because--again--you have provided no support of your statements. Some of what you've posted might be indeed facts, but since only you and 20 other people probably know of it, it would help if you provided sources.

Now, let's get to the meat here. Remember this thread? Let review some of your cute statements:

I used 1998 numbers from our friends at the EPA, but let's go with some 1993 models, okay?

Cavalier: 26/33
Civic: 35/41
Corolla: 23/31
323: 25/33

So...what standard are you talking about from 1993?

To which I pulled the following information:

1988 Toyota Corolla with 4A-F engine: 59hp/L
1988 Honda Civic with 1500cc engine: 61hp/L
1988 Chevy Cavalier with 2.0L engine: 55hp/L

Almost 20 years? What does that mean? That generally means 19 or 18 to me...not 15 or 16. Who's having problems with numbers now?

But let's go with 1993 models, shall we? Nah, let's go with the first model year of a new generation after the glorious 70hp/L motor became the "world standard":

1996 Honda Civic DX (with the D16Y7 engine): 1.5L, 115hp, 66hp/L
1995 Chevy Cavalier (with the GM 122 engine): 2.2L, 110hp, 50hp/L
1998 Toyota Corolla (with the 1ZZ-FE engine): 1.8L, 120hp, 67hp/L

(All of these are from their respective Wikipedia entries...who the hell would try and doctor some shit like this?)

Close...that's not 70, though. Again, who's having problems with numbers now?

I'm in the game, Tommy. I'm at Citizens Bank Park, waiting for the first pitch at the Phillies game. Meanwhile, you're sitting over at a ball field somewhere in Montgomery County all alone, wondering where the action is.

You hear that whooshing sound, Tommy? Listen closely...

*whoooooooosh*

That's the sound of the last remaining pieces of your credibility slipping away.

Americans have it really easy with fuel prices. Here's a comparison:

In Australia we are now paying A$1.70 per litre for unleaded petrol, $1.80 for diesel. A$1 = US$0.95, 3.785L = 1 USG.

1.70 x 0.95 x 3.785 = 6.11 US$ / US gal
1.80 x 0.95 x 3.785 = 6.47 US$ / US gal

I think I know what tw meant. Maybe the more efficient engines were developed as a concept car that was never offered in production.

There's a number of possible different reasons for that: maybe they were unable to offer the product at a marketable price point, maybe there was a lack of interest, and... maybe they were suppressing the technology.

Sheer brilliance - "Hall of Fame" material.

Paging Ms. Wolf
 

Clean up aisle three.