Loyalty Oath
 

Do you see pacifism or religion as a reasonable objection against teachers signing this oath?

The story here.

An interesting side note... Yeah Berkeley, who'd a thunk it. Three years later it was added to the state constitution.

I find it interesting that to support and defend the constitution by default means to do so violently. I don't think that this is necessarily so. I know many pacifists who support and defend many things/ideas non-violently.

I joined the Army where the oath of enlistment is similar to the oath this teacher refused to sign. I think it is expected in the Army to close with and fight an adversary someday, not so with a teacher. It is expected that a teacher should teach.

Working at a state run school, she refuses to support and defend the U.S. and state constitutions, even in a non violent way, by teaching.....she doesn't get to be hired as a teacher.

I don't see the problem.

Berkeley?


*faints*

... the land of the free
and the home of the brave...

first, I find it weird that they have to swear to defend the constitutions against enemies (and not the country or state itself). How do you do that? fend off bugs and humidity? And second, why do teachers have to defend against any enemies? They are not law enforcement or military. Seems strange.

Yeah, Berkeley... just think how many English professors they have there..............

I would probably hold my nose and sign it... it's a stupid requirement for a teaching job. It would be interesting to see it litigated. Support? Defend? True Faith? Allegiance? These are all horribly vague concepts. Does voting for any constitutional amendment imply a lack of support for the current Constitution? What if a student states that the consumption of alcohol is detrimental to society as a whole, and that prohibition should never have been repealed? What if a student questions the wisdom of the direct election of US Senators? What form should the teacher's defense of the Constitution take?

EDIT: OH SHIT!!! This requirement is in the CA constitution, and I just dissed it!! I suppose I'll be hunted down next time I set foot in CA.

It has been, repeatedly, and upheld by the courts.

If you don't like the oath, don't take a government job. The only people besides government employees and military required to take the oath or something similar are naturalized citizens.

One question is what does Cal State do about employees who aren't US citizens?

I still remember discussing the oath with the ROTC captain who wanted to administer it to me (I was not really in ROTC, but that's another story). I was concerned about any conflict between being a US citizen and being a Zionist. He reminded me that the US and Israel have always been allies.

This was before the Pollard incident.

I took the oath and I believe in it.

I do still find it odd when I go our township meeting and everyone has to get up and recite the pledge of allegiance. To me it's something you feel or don't feel and reciting it won't change things.

Imagine making every husband in America stand up during public events and recite 'I will not cheat on my wife', as if that will cure infidelity. Do we measure patriotism by how loud and heartfelt the pledge swearers are? Do we give points for wearing a flag pin?

Patriotism means standing up for your beliefs in regards to your country, even when those beliefs are unpopular.

Yes. Oh, yes.

FUCK YEAH!!

"I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter."


yeah, yeah, I know allright, allright, big eyes, big eyes, yeah, yeah, I know allright, big eyes, goodbye.

I had to sign and recite it when I was commissioned as a 2LT. Had to repeat it when I became Regular Army after 2nd AD promotion {not to include 1st LT}. Yea, you better believe it. Otherwise find another job.

I don't think teachers should be doing it.

soldier is different than teacher. what about postal carriers? municipal court clerks? dogcatchers?

"...and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

What are they going to do? Throw mail at them? Throw legal papers at them? Throw cats at them? Teachers? Throw pencils at them?

How the hell are they going to defend themselves out of a paper bag? At Berkley no less? I know, they could get those pink ladies that protested in front of the Marines to defend them and the Marines could stand by and watch them get slaughtered. Good luck on that one. :rolleyes:

Bring on the brainwashing...

Its one stupid and two unenforceable.

I've been in contact with a teacher in California that is a proclaimed anarchist.

But if that teacher tries to promote anarchy to the students, through his/her teaching position, the oath is a gotcha. Termination with no convoluted excuses.

I think that is goal of Berkley.

I went to Berkeley. Dropped out, too.

is anyone surprised? :)

Depends on why you dropped out.

I entered college at 16, thousands of miles from my family and anyone I knew, got depressed (really, horribly depressed and didn't know enough to get help), and couldn't finish my classes. Went for 12 months, but sometimes--bigger is not better.

Eventually I got my degree elsewhere--that just was not a good year for me.

Does that make a difference in your assessment?

No assessing, you is what you post.
Just wondered if you were turned off by the Berkeley attitude/atmosphere, or personal matters, caused you to flee.

BTW - if tutors are really promoting anarchy, would they really have a class to tutor after the first semester?

Hey really good point. Sometimes I am surprised at how smart Cloud can be.
:D

Aren't you supposed to be protecting the virtues and ideas written inside the document, and not the document itself though? Is it really that literal?

Gee, thanks.

I think.

;)

That's because our founding fathers didn't trust the state, or what the state might become. In their minds, it was possible for the state itself to become the enemy. Remember that the founding fathers of the United States were rebels (insurgents).

From Jefferson's 1st Inaugural Address

Jefferson considered a situation where the majority (or state) could be an instrument of oppression.

Interesting point. Let me think about that for a while.

Good stuff Rich. That is sort of how I remember it as well. But we have developed into a different animal since then. I can't buy that we shouldn't or can't morph a bit along the way. Agree?