Female Muslim medics 'disobey hygiene rules'
 

From the Telegraph.I hope to hell the hospitals don't cave in to this foolishness. Muslim doctors... make that any doctors.... risking the lives of patients, in the name of religion or vanity, is absolutely unacceptable.

They should have to tell their patients they wont be scrubbing up properly before surgery in the interest of full disclosure. If the patient is happy to take the risk, then so be it (as long as they can afford the risk financially).

Surely it would have to go against their hypocratic oath though. Knowing they're likely to be putting their patients in danger...or something.

It also puts at risk, the hospital staff that have to treat this now infected patient.

I don't think that it is as much a check on extreme modesty as much as a fear of reaction among the ultra macho men in Muslim society, who may enforce their own brand of sharia if they find out the women would be doctors do scrub. Police so far has been inadequate in handling this regard. Yes, I'm saying that the men may kill them.

Your suggesting that Muslim women don't take the tenets seriously and only comply because men force them?

Fire them like you would any other non-compliant employee.

This threat of MRSA is real, once you allow the bacteria to enter your bloodstream, only God will have to save your life. Patients as well as the doctors are at risk of contracting this infection unlike HIV & Hepatitis. One study found 60% of doctors had their hands colonized with enterococci after handling a patient with enterococci infection.

This refusal to wash and scrub their hands will leave the doctors or medical students at risk of carrying MRSA home and spreading this micro-organism to their own family and children.

As patients, please refuse to be touched or treated by any doctor , nurse or medical student who refuse to wash their hands adequately (below elbow using soap and water for 15-30 seconds). You may be hated for being harsh, but this could save your life.

Only worry, I have is when people start treating all Asians to be Muslims, when there are Indians who are not Muslims, Afrocarabians who could be Muslims and Egyptians who look like Caucasians are Muslims.

Nature has its way of cleansing the society, this is one of the ways and I am sure there are a few more to come.

Please visit safecannula

I doubt that the hospitals will make exceptions on these grounds. It would be unreasonable to do so.

No hope for us atheists then.....

your first post? A link without description? I'll pass, thanks.

- - - - - -



I already thought it was mandatory to be bare-armed and scrub up to the elbow. No way should this be allowed. There is clear evidence -and has been for a long time- that this is essential for hygeine.

Would Muslim women wearing long sleeves be allowed to work as doctors in countries where the law requires them to be covered?

Are we going to go back to the days where females were diagnosed and examined with their clothes on and doctors didn't wash their hands? Absolutely ridiculous.

Deadbeater may have a point; though if your male relatives are so fundamentalist as to kill you for showing your forearms when it is an absolute medical necessity, and if these women are so all-fired modest--why are they doctors? Or nurses, or whatever. Doesn't seem like a good career choice to me.

Can't these women do their surgical scrub in a private area? I mean, is it permissible for them to see their own elbows?

they need to keep their sleeves off their forearms post-scrub and during all patient contact, though, splode. The sleeves carry the bacteria. Unless they could maybe wear elbow length disposable surgical gloves?

Usually links are not permitted in the first post, but after checking it out decided it was pertinent and allowed it to stay.

OK thanks, I might even click on it, then....

but the link doesn't work

Yes it does.

hmm. not for me. I've tried it several times, and I get the blue website not found screen

It's about a normally harmless bacteria that lives on your skin. Can get into patients' bodies during invasive surgery and attacks the immune system.

I can only go by the doctrines in most religions that put health and safety above dogma.

Most religions allow medical personnel to work on the Sabbath to save lives and ease suffering.

Most religions allow adherents to disregard dietary laws or forgo fasts if such actions risk lives.

I can't believe that the core Islamic faith would have an issue with this. Orthodox Jewish women have similar restrictions and I have never heard of this as an issue.

The stipulations of faith aren't that doctors can't show their arms though rich, rather the stipulation is that women can't show their arms. Times change and now women are doctors...puts a little strain on some of those tenets.

I can't imagine how a woman from a Muslim family can have been allowed to study medicine if the family is that fundamental. Srsly, can you?

This is a case where a caliph may help, rather than a Wahabbist imam, so as to guide Muslims on the right direction. In a weird way, Osama bin Laden may be right.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, religious fucktards. Here's another warning: when we ship you back home, they might chop your cunt off.

ouch

wait, doesn't surgical garb cover your arms to the wrist and surgical gloves (2 pr IIRC) cover the hands totally?

I know Muslim women can undress and bathe privately and with members of their own sex, just not around men.

Doctors usually scrub privately and dress before surgery and the patient generally doesn't see the doctor just prior to surgery due to anesthetic prep. I've been operated on twice and neither time did I actually see the doctor, I was out before he even got there.

So what's the problem? I'm missing something I guess.

It sounds like the old uniforms did, but it's been determined that the sleeves are worsening the spread of the diseases. Emphasis mine:

Ship them back home? Who said they weren't British born moslems?

Sorry, I should have said "ship you back where you belong" ...

So why don't they provide long surgical gloves? It seems that it would be even more hygienic to cover the bare skin with gloves.

Then they'd have to go sleeveless. From my interpretation, flawed as it may be, it's keeping the clothing from contaminating the glove that is considerably important.

I completely agree. Well, I hope never to get sick there. :greenface

Scrub areas are not in a private location. They are located as close as possible to the operative theater, usually with glass over the sink looking into the OR. This is so immediately after the scrub, the doc walks immediately into the OR with dripping arms held above the waist hands in the air at about shoulder or chest height. The glass is often there so the surgeon can monitor and be summonded if there is an immediate problem. Not all ORs have the glass, just most of the modern ones. The patient often does not see the surgeon in the OR, but that is surgeon dependent.

And FTR, the women must comply or find another profession IMHO. The Brits were pioneers in getting physicians to stop wearing ties in the hospital.

I personally think Islam was a flawed religion from the very beginning. Too many unworkable ideas, for example, their holy book can only be read in one language. The fact that it couldn't even survive their prophet's death without controversy, schism and bloodshed should have been a clue. The world is still paying for that schism today, and how.

Unlike, say, the Great Schism or the Protestant Reformation?

yeah, but those splits happened a thousand years after the fact. Islam broke up immediately upon its proponent's death.

I personally think Christianity was a flawed religion from the very beginning. Too many unworkable ideas, for example, *their holy book can only be read in one language. The fact that it couldn't even survive their saviour's death without controversy, schism and bloodshed should have been a clue. The world is still paying for that schism today, and how.

*ok so the bible is available in many languages, but you get my idea I'm sure.

I am not a fan of organized religion in general. I don't necessarily think your comparisons equate exactly as you have positioned them, but I won't insist on my idea. It was just a thought I had yesterday, listening to my podcast about cultural geography.

I'm not a fan of atheism either, especially when it propagates things such as human eugenics and worse.

atheists aren't the only ones to propogate human eugenics. Plenty of theists have been ardent eugenicists.

I know they don't. But I don't think we can make sweeping statements about any religion and really be positioning the religion correctly...if you get what I mean. It's the old bad apple thing. Just because some people that belong to a particular group go psycho doesn't mean the rest should be judged for those actions.

. . . in which the point was made that the Qur'an is only the Qur'an in one language, Arabic. Sure, you can translate it, but it isn't the Qur'an then--it isn't a holy book in English or whatever. I was thinking, boy that's pretty shortsighted of them, and then I got to thinking about other things in Islam that seem not to make sense to me, and are unworkable. Like the present discussion about female health care workers.

Yes, you can find plenty of examples of dumb things in a lot of religions, including Christianity--I'm not saying you can't--but it's just my personal opinion that Islam has had a tough roe and inflexible rules from the start.

I don't think it's necessarily Islam that's inflexible. There are places and communities practising Islam in very different ways across the globe. Some communities have a much more secular approach to Islam, some are culturally more inclined towards greater parity between the sexes than others. The inflexibility comes in with the interpretation of Islam. Certain interpretations of Islam render it (to the western way of thinking) inflexible and less able to fit a 'modern' way of life.

There are interpretations of Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism and Judaism which, to my mind, seem inflexible and archaic in their precepts, including in their attitudes to females and homosexuality, dietary requirements, clothing requirements and so forth.

Oh, shame on our "western way of thinking" for pointing out obvious stupidity and barbarism when it rears it's ugly head.

I think it was more the idea that Islam is somehow inherently and uniquely stupid and barbarous that I was objecting to Flint. Much of what appears to be 'Islam' is actually a culturally based interpretation of Islam and in no way universally accepted by the Islamic diaspora. Doesn't make it any less stupid and barbarous....just makes it less inherent to the actual religion.

"stupid and barbarous" are rather harsher criticisms than I felt I was making. Flawed and unworkable were the things I was thinking about.

If I were in a hospital where this thing was going on . . . I would demand that no one touch me who hasn't properly scrubbed.

The "Islamic diaspora" is but a tiny minority of all people of the Islamic faith. It seems to me that many of the more radical elements apear to come from the educated middle or upper middle class of Islamic society.

Although we have no defense against the MRSA infection, we do have a defense against this "diaspora" infection. No compliance to hygiene laws, no acceptance in med school or medical profession.

Is this just an isolated incident?

Also, this would be a good time to bring up Christian hospitals that refuse to hand out morning after pills to rape victims, I saw something on that a while back.

Of course, a very easy way of getting and keeping power.

"Also, this would be a good time to bring up Christian hospitals that refuse to hand out morning after pills to rape victims, I saw something on that a while back."
Funny, I didn't know being pregnant could infect a whole hospital.

It's true! The last time I was in the hospital, every single patient in my ward was pregnant too!

lol

Dirty surgery isn't likely to infect the whole hospital either, as the microbes in question are by definition all over the hospital already. But it can certainly impact the individual patient.

And how many individual patients does one doctor with germ-ridden sleeves see in a day?

I might point out that we are talking about objections raised by a small number of medical students in four or five universities. This is highly unlikely to be anything but a minor issue, and extremely unlikey to feed through into actual practice.

And we're discussing the reasons why it shouldn't.

The real problem, in my mind, is that anybody would think this is acceptable behavior. When the total absence of reason that is rooted in religious ignorance begins to dictate people's actions, and they actually think that other people should give a fuck, then you really do have a problem in society*. The fact that this is taking place "in four or five universities" demonstrates that it isn't just an isolated problem. It's popping up all over the place, and it needs to be FORCEFULLY SQUASHED.

*and the same applies to religious morons in America: tyring to stop AIDS with abstinence, for instance

For instance....

Are you saying that abstinence is an ineffective way of stopping the spread of AIDS?

Telling people "just don't have sex!" is an ineffective way of accomplishing anything whatsoever.

Does that include abstaining from cyber sex? :confused:

Abstinence is an almost certain way of preventing the spread of the AIDS virus, and you know it.

Being abstinent is, apparently, supremely difficult. But it does substantially reduce the transmission of the virus. Naturally, sharing virus laden bodily fluids in other ways does still represent a transmission vector, like needle sharing for example.

Don't be as deliberately ignorant and hysterical as those other morons, religious or otherwise, in spreading misinformation. You're too sharp for that.

Don't be obtuse. Simply telling people not to have sex accomplishes nothing, in reality. It's a theoretical solution with no practical application.