A historically significant day for Australians
 

Today for the first time ever, the Aboriginal people of the Canberra region have welcomed our federal parliament onto their land. This has never happened before and in fact, Aboriginal people have protested the Australian parliament and it's decisions with a 'tent embassy' for many many years.

This historic welcome anticipates the apology our new Prime Minister is set to offer the Aboriginal people of this land tomorrow. An apology for all the injustice, murder and dispossession these people have suffered at the hands of white settlers right up to this very day.

You may say that an apology is only words. That it means nothing, and perhaps it will in the end, but in the spirit of the gravity with which this apology is being offered, I, along with many millions of my fellow Australians can only hope that this is the first big step on the path to reconciliation.

Its all been said before though.

Not in this way and certainly not with the same intent. I agree that it's no magical fix for all the problems, but it's a better start than ever before.

Also, the Aboriginal people have never before welcomed the parliament onto their traditional land before.

The underlying problem has long been understood: The Gods Must Be Crazy.

I've seen the movie tw. I fail to see connection you're trying to make.

Maybe you take Australians too seriously. Obviously, I don't.

Maybe you don't make much sense.

I'm sorry. I have a bad habit of making my posts too long.

:eek:

did he just say what i think he said?!

^^^ I just had to see that again^^^

You really can be a very funny guy tw

As soon as I get a copy of UG's unabridged thesaurus, long sentences can be replaced with big words. What is a single word that says the gods must be crazy - in past tense?

Australia.

^
 

:lol2:

Congrats, we owe the American Indians a similar process.

Can't wait to see the bill for reparations to the Arbos.

The American Indians are getting theirs through unregulated and uncontrolled gaming on reservation land.

Unregulated by whom and on whose land?

There's no 'r' in abos and it's a derogatory word/title used only by those too ignorant to know better.

With regard to compensation. I'm sure there'll be claims by some but not others. I hope they'll be considered on an individual basis rather than as one big settlement to be split up between all claimants regardless of merit.

sounds like Abos is akin to Niggers in the states. inside the states Abos/abors/abros/abdfh means nothing. I honestly don't know anything about your aboriginal issues, but my gut tells me it probably isn't too much differnt than our Indian issues.

Reparations? Apologies? Why? WTF did I do? I don't owe the folks that live on the reservations in the states one damn thing beyond the same courtesy i extend to all people i meet. I am not responsible for the actions of distant generations and don't understand the mindset of those who feel guilty for someone else's actions.

It's not about feeling guilty. It's about finding a way to move forward from the difficult past faced by both indigenous and non indigenous people. It's a step towards the unification of all Australians.

The speaches in parliament were just broadcast and both sides of the house were unified in their words and actions.

Today is a new day in the history of Australia. My only hope personally is that the new government and the opposition have begun as they mean to go on.

I'm still waiting for my apology from the damn Poms for putting my ancestors on a boat for stealing bread.

Yeah well we all know that's never going to happen. ;)

Besides, I'd rather live here than there anyway. We have much better weather. :)

What? There are people who scrimp and save their whole lives, for a cruise to the South Pacific.

I like ducks nuts.

not afraid to cop to being descended from penal colony inhabitants. much respect.

I hope you guys do better by your native displaced than we did. we just conquered and segregated the native Americans. And while I understand lookout's point.....I do, honestly, feel a little guilty...vicariously about the way the white man has comported himself... as a whole.....in the past.

I have a deep admiration for the way the Native Americans used to live, and the way they are forced to survive today, to me at least, is kind of depressing.

Wind in His Hair would be furious about the current state of affairs. KWIM?
http://www.westernposterpage.com/rodney1.jpg

I loved digging up all the family dirt when I did the family tree.

I'm actually descended from a stowaway and the daughter of a bread thief.

I had to dig deep with my deceased Grandmother (Dad's side), she was found with a single bullet wound to the head and left on the side of the road....not far from where I currently live.

Seems she was having an affair and her lover shot her because she wouldnt leave Pa.

He then went on to become a Hermit.

I think I understand what you are saying too. It isn't like I'm sitting here laughing at "those dirty injuns gettin' what they had comin'". I just don't understand the concept of feeling guilty about something that I had no possible way of preventing. I feel sympathy for those wronged. I feel disgust for those who were in the wrong. But I feel no guilt.

Really, what percentage of guilt should I feel? 100% Certainly not - I'm 1/16 Cherokee. 90%? No, I have to account for my Swedish blood that didn't come here until the early 1900's. 25%? Well, I think my Scottish great great great grandfather did serve in the Army. I'll bet he did some bad shit. I'll feel guilty for his actions. Just a little though, ok. Or would that guilt be negated by the guilt I should feel for my Cherokee ancestors killing white settlers... I'm so confused.

On their land which is out of all federal and state jurisdiction.

Yeah, exactly. Are you twigged that Macau, bigger than Las Vegas, is outside federal and state jurisdiction too?

No, that would Portugal's problem.

It really has nothing about guilt but understanding what has happened. We didn't kill or kick out any of the American Indians but we did benefit from it.

If my and your family are out on the street and decide to take over Merc's house so we have a place to stay and your father goes in, kills Merc's family, and we both move in. Neither of us did any of the killing and we may be friends with Merc's kid but the fact is that both me and you benefit from your dad killing Merc and that Merc's kid is directly hurt from you killing his father.

We as a nation and a group of people have to recognize what we did, how we still benefit from it today, and stop treating the American Indians like savages.

I recognize what other people did. I acknowledge that I live on land that once belonged to someone else. (But you see - I bought and paid for the land I live on) Depending on who you ask and what year you are talking about it may have been mexicans or indians. I see both mexicans and indians each and every day of my life and it's been awhile since I tried to barter with them with them using beads and firewater.

Seriously get over your self hate. Quit buying the hype that all these people are living lives of horror and you are to blame because you are white. Would it help if I walked down the street and grabbed a random mexican or indian and offered them an apology and cash?

How much? And what exactly would I be apologizing for? That someone they never met, their great great great grandparent might have had a bad dealing with my great great great grandparent who I never met?

Being aware of the past does not mean you have to dwell in it. I certainly don't expect any apologetic feelings from dana or Sundae Girl, and I'm pretty sure that someone from the UK might have wronged someone from Scotland at some point. This dwelling in the past has to stop if you ever want to move on.

**Bold for my emphasis**

But I don't treat them as savages - never have, never will. Did I benefit from whatever happened? I don't know. My great grandparents didn't arrive in this country till 1888. They settled in New England, lived, worked and died there. My grandparents? - same story. They went to Philadelphia once.

My question is: How much culpability should I bear? What is my level of responsibility, or my children's? I think ZERO, and giving one dime to the Indians could be argued as depriving my children from that "money" or whatever.

I have to agree with PH's stance. He's got it right from the perspective of non indigenous australians. We have benefited from what our ancestors did, and aboriginal people have suffered because of what our ancestors did, and are still doing in some ways.

For instance, before white people arrived here, Aboriginal people did not have alcohol at all, but now that we're here, alcohol is the number one cause of death among Aboriginal people. The things white people brought to Aboriginal people have been far more harmful than any advantages all the new racists seem to think they have.

It seems to me that you face the same types of problems in the US with regard to attitudes towards indigenous people. I'm glad Australia as a nation hasn't taken 400 years plus to see that. I am hopeful of a more positive future for all of us.

Let's see...Yes, obviously.

Receiving stolen property?

ROTFLMAO!!!! Good one. What a load of crap.:D

You can keep on living in your guilt ridden world, I'll sleep quite comfortably in my shame free slumber.

If they want my land back, bring it on.

You can acknowledge something was wrong without feeling personal guilt over it.

Better yet, when are you giving up your place HM????? you guilt ridden poor baby. Live up to your ideals and give away all your shit you hypocrite.:D

I don't understand why some people don't get it.

All of us, including our indigenous people have to acknowledge that the world must move forward and that you can't take back the actions of the past, but surely you can see how much it might mean to someone by simply acknowledging that what was done by your ancestors was wrong?

In Australia, no one is calling for everyone but indigenous people to leave. No one is suggesting that Aboriginal people should get to claim all the land. People are simply coming to realize that past decisions have had dire consequences for many people and that it should be acknowledged out of simple respect if nothing else.

In America I totally get it. Just don't ask me for money because of it.:D

I don't quite get it. Is the general population suddenly coming to this conclusion? Or the government? Or is it suddenly politically correct to state this? I don't get why this is a sudden and major event as if diplomats suddenly signed a major treaty? What is it that makes this ceremony so significant or necessary?

It's not sudden. It's been coming for decades now, and probably would have happened sooner but our previous conservative government was too afraid to acknowledge any wrong because they felt similarly to Merc and lookout. That is to say, they refused to see that this event could be the start of a healing process between indigenous and non indigenous australians and prefered to think that if they did they'd be accepting guilt and possible financial losses. This topic has been debated in the public forum for years and years.

Maybe this will cost money, but whatever that cost is, I say it is a small price to pay for giving Aboriginal people back their dignity.

Distant? How distant?

Certainly in terms of the 'Lost Generations' of aboriginal people, we really aren't talking such a long time ago.

I think it's a very good and civilised move on the part of the Australian government.

Probably more important: will it make them a better member of the assimilated nation called Australia? Probably the most difficult part of correcting such wrongs is to make the discriminated a productive and welcome member of that society.

Will this accomplish the goal? I have not a clue. But I suspect that most important objective is the ultimate intent.

The Gods Must Be Crazy is a favorite movie. The aboriginal is the only sane person as he disposes of that coke bottle. But only he (and maybe the coke bottle) knows it.

Dignity didnt come with a price tag last I heard.

The first compensation claim was starting before the apology was even finished.

How does this help the young Aboriginal girls being raped in the NT by their relatives, the alcohol abuse and the other problems that are occurring now.

I just think the money would be better spent on the issues of TODAY, than dwelling on something that was a law and that is out of control.

People, regardless of who they are have the right to seek compensation if they feel they deserve it. It is for the legal system to decide if there is any paid or not. I'm fairly ambivalent about that particular point at this stage. There are good arguments for both sides of the fence.

How does it help the social problems faced by Aboriginal people? My hope is that in time, if Aboriginal people are able to find their pride as a people things will change. As I've said previously, this is the first step in the road, but I believe this is a very long road we are facing as a nation. There's no quick fixes. It requires dedication and perseverance by all of us to ensure better outcomes for all our future generations, both indigenous and non indigenous.

If they need outside affirmation to find their pride they're too fucked to ever find it anyway.

If they need an apology to decide to move on, then the apology won't change anything either.

If they are mired in a miserable existence because someone handed their grandfather a bottle of liquor then reparations won't help them one bit.

What you do with your life is a personal choice.

Why should the fact that an apology solves nothing in and of itself mean anything?

An apology hurts nobody. Reparations, on the level of the government, hurt nobody any worse than the 3.8 million they spent trying to brainstorm ways to cut useless spending.


Some things aren't about exactly how much good they'll concretely do, about how much some arguably empty words and speeches accomplish... some things are just plain old manners. Apologizing is the right thing to do because its just nice. Don't gimme some bullshit about how its not your fault what your ancestors did; if a guy came up to you on the street and told you that your dad wronged him, you wouldn't haughtily tell him that its not your fault, even though it isn't your fault, you just apologize for his misbehavior and move on. Cause it's just good manners. Speak for those who can't speak for themselves anymore, and apologize for their sake.


Apologizing to those that your ancestors wronged isn't for the wronged's sake, it's for your ancestor's sake.

Except for the fact that they set a legal precedent for anyone and everyone who has ever had something unfair done to them to sue for reparations.

The part about this that I find so sad is that so many people can only see the bad that can come of it and not the good. All they can think of is 'what will I have to give up if this happens in my country' or 'I'm not responsible for what my ancestors did'.

If that's the case, stop your going on about how wonderful your constitution is. You didn't write it. Stop saying what great men your founding fathers were. You're not them. Stop saying how fantastic it was when you beat the British. You weren't there.

If you want to celebrate and take credit for the good things your ancestors did, you must also be willing to accept that they did some pretty bad shit too, and some time sooner or later, you're going to have to acknowledge it.

It happened, it was a looooong time ago - lets all move on. It didn't happen to you and I didn't do it so whats the point in dwelling on it? Reparations are a waste of time because all partied involved are long dead.

No, all parties are not long dead. In fact, there are plenty still in the land of the living.

Not here there aren't. In Australia? Yes and I've long ago said good for you and them. I was referring to the US.

Where is my self hate? When have I ever said I feel guilty for being white? What I do realize is that all the advantages I have in life is a result of what my people's ancestors did to others who children are still at a disadvantage to this day. If that is self hate, the idea that everyone should have equal treatment, then fuck you.

Stop with the stupid remarks, both you and I know that wouldn't accomplish anything except making an individual feel better about what an entire group did.

Where did I ever say an apology was needed from an individual? The only way to solve racial problems is when a society decides to get rid of a supremacist doctrine. And no, it isn't just that their triple great grandparent got fucked by your triple great grandparent. It is that other people are still hurt and you still benefit from what your triple great grandparent did.

The reason no apology is needed from Britain to Scotland is because the people in Scotland are not currently at a disadvantage from what happened in the past as opposed to the natives in the United States or Aboriginals in Australia.


Individuals do not matter; it is how the group treats them. The Nazi's were anti-semitic but does that mean every German was? No. Whites in America are treated and looked at as more civilized than natives, hence why I said what I did.

And also, I live in Minnesota, so I do see more racism against natives than usual.

How much culpability should you bear? How can you measure that? It certainty can’t be measured in money. The fact is that you benefit and people of color are hurt from what happened in the past so you can either move on and treat people of color like equals and do a small part that probably won’t change anything or you can fully embrace white supremacy and probably won’t change anything. You as an individual can only help or hurt individuals unless you can somehow change the system so just accept what happened and live your life and try not to embrace white supremacy.

Monetary reparations won’t do anything in my opinion so lets stop talking about them. The best way to repay people of color for what our ancestors did is to allow them to create their own institutions and have equal opportunity, which unfortunately will be seen as a threat to many whites, and the general public treating people of color as equals to whites.

You don’t have to have my stance on the issue and feel guilty. If I was guilty I would give up my whiteness to an unneeded extreme by seriously breaking social norms in terms of dress and actions. Of course I wouldn’t be helping anyone and just hurt myself, and would only affect my view of myself.

As I said before, monetary help won’t do anything. If reparations are going to work, it has to be in the form of institutions and equal opportunity, which I hope you are not opposed too.

It doesn’t matter what happened how long ago, all that matter is how are people affected by it today. If no one is affected by it anymore, than there is no need to dwell on it but if people are negatively affected by it today, than it is natural to dwell on it and find out realistic ways we can prevent their children from being negatively affected by it.

Lets put it this way Classicman. If we are running a race in 2 months and I break your leg, and rehurt it every week after that and by the time the race comes around, you are still at a disadvantage. I can say “it was two months ago” all I want but the fact is that you are still hurt from it and we do not have equality. Just acknowledge the fact that we are not equal and live your life without hurting anyone in the future because the wound should naturally heal if given enough time and a chance to heal.

Only their parents can prevent the children from being negatively affected by the past.

Somehow I doubt that, especially since many of their mothers are working two jobs without a father!

There are other variables in a child's life besides parents too. Parents may be the most important, but there are other factors. To just completely ignore intelligence level, personality, social expectations, personal traumas, teachers, friends, social environment, and school's effectiveness is just foolish.

Bullshit PS - there are more friggin programs to help the disadvantaged and the vast majority of those programs are being abused by those who were intended to benefit from them. Its time to stop trying to make up for whatever happened a hundred years ago, look forward and move on. To completely try and make up for something that one really cannot is foolish and although your idealistic view is commendable, its just not going to, nor should it happen.