Global Warming Debate ll
 

Editorial
No Place to Hide
Published: January 20, 2008

Skeptics about global warming often point to Antarctica to show that Al Gore and others who worry about climate change have exaggerated the dangers greatly. They may concede that the Arctic is melting and even that Greenland is beginning to appear a bit shaky. But look at Antarctica, they will say. It’s actually growing colder, and the ice sheet is thickening.

That argument is becoming harder to sustain. According to a study published last week in the journal Nature Geoscience, changes in water temperature and wind patterns related to global warming have begun to erode vast ice sheets in western Antarctica at a much faster rate than anyone had previously detected.

The study pointed out that the ice loss is very small compared with the continent’s miles-deep ice sheets. Even so, the study suggests that if the trend continues, global sea levels could rise higher and more swiftly than previously supposed. The findings give more urgency to the search for a new global agreement to limit emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

There has always been uncertainty over Antarctica’s weather, partly because it is so hard to find what is happening in large parts of the continent. And there are, in effect, two Antarcticas. East Antarctica, which makes up about 90 percent of the total, sits above sea level and is relatively stable, with increased snowfall compensating for any loss of ice. A study in 2002 concluded that the interior had actually cooled over the previous decade.

Then there is the western shelf, an expanse of ice and snow roughly the size of Texas and largely below sea level. Using measurements from satellites that scanned about 85 percent of Antarctica’s coasts from 1996 to 2006, the study’s authors found that West Antarctica has been losing ice at a rate that is 60 percent faster than 10 years ago.


Continues:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/opinion/20sun4.html

:rolleyes: Merc, I've found that you might need to add about another quart of mogas to the mix....if your gonna stir that much shit.

I'll bet on any given day I could find someone who just knows for sure that we are all gonna die of heat stroke in 5 years. And on any given day I can find someone who says what the fuck ever, not gonna happen.

They both sound like they know what they are talking about, and they both site "scientific" research and observation.

They way I see it we are either killing ourselves and our children with shortsightedness or we're not. I guess we'll find out, huh?

Kill all the cows NOW!

And termites.

How about killing, say, 80% of the humans? Thats what the planet really needs. Plus measures to keep population down after the big cull...

As long as I, and all I care about, are in the 20% thats fine too.

Well I have a theory about all this global warming stuff.

For one thing, the whole way we base calculations on carbon dating could be totally wrong.

for another thing, if it's right and we know the northern ice caps are going to melt, it could simply be a case of switcheroony and the southern icecaps will freeze over more. Wind paterns will reverse etc and everyone will have to swap over how they live.

All of a sudden us sunburned aussies will have to learn how to live in the ice and snow all the time, and you lot up north will have to get out the waxing strips and prepare yourselves for summer. ;)

Fine by me. And if NYC and LA are submerged in the process - even better!

I'll see your NY & LA and raise you the entire state of California.

There aren't too many people saying "not gonna happen". Mostly they say "let's wait a bit until there's more evidence", "sure it's happening, but it's not our fault/nothing we can do", or "maybe it's a good thing."

or maybe the period of time which we have measured is so historically insignificant that our data is equal to no more than a "sun fart." Did/is something happening? yes are we responsible - no one knows. its a pointless issue to raise. 30 - 40 years ago we heard about global cooling, not its warming - nothing, NOTHING says it isn't perfectly normal and caused by the natural order of things.

just as long as you throw in California's suburb, Oregon.

You know, when I think about it...everything is caused by the natural order of things. Unless we should consider ourselves unnatural.

One of my favorite...what's the plural of paradox?

If what we are doing to the planet is "unnatural" then what is it's source? The supernatural? I can only conclude that there is no such thing as unnatural behavior. Of course, you have to consider man a part of nature, and not God's special thing-above-all-others, for this to apply.

It is true that our written records are very short, but analysis of tree rings (especially of oak preserved in peat bogs for thousands of years), the rings of coral growths, the layers of ice (and the bubbles trapped in ancient ice) and ocean and lake sediments, all combine to deliver a record stretching back much much further.

(You might argue about the interpretations placed on each of these, of course. What follows presumes that these records are reasonably accurate.)

The record they deliver does indicate that climate has been wobbling all over the place for at least the last 300,000 years. There is no "correct" or "stable" global climate that Earth is "supposed" to be at. Nevertheless, the earth is much hotter now than it has been for a long time.

The fact of change is not abnormal. The rate of change is entirely unprecedented in the last 300,000 years. Likewise the rate of increase of CO2 (also lead, CFCs, etc etc) is also unprecedented.
These unprecedented rates of change indicate that human activity is probably the cause. Change is natural, really fast change is not.

Natural or not, ask yourself: do you want big climate change? In the short term: more and bigger storms, hurricanes, etc? Heatwaves killing more people? The spread of mosquito borne diseases? We are (perhaps) seeing some of these now.
In the middle term, sea-level rise? Land lost to this? Widespread extinctions as animals are unable to adapt to the changes in climate?
I'd prefer that these things not happen, not just for my future self but as a general responsibility to the future people of our civilization.
If we are the cause of it (and a solid majority of scientists agree that we are) then we ought to stop doing the things that cause it, and start undoing them.
Even if we aren't the cause, we still ought to see what we can do to reduce and mitigate the effects.

[Texan] Are you wit' us or are you agin' us? [/Texan]

Note to self: plagiarize new Scientist before writing long posts.

This links to the New Scientist home page.

This links to their "Climate Change" special report, a collection of all the stories they have relevant to climate change. Some are good news - a new carbon binding crop, eg.. A few dispute the reality and anthropogenicity of climate change. The vast majority are not good news, and do not dispute this.

This links to the "Instant Expert" article found on that page. The original is better than this copy because every claim has a link which supports it.

Here are some highlights of that article:


Only thing I'd change is that last paragraph: "We will need to" should read "We need to".

Well we need to invest in watercraft then, cuz we'll all be living in a "waterworld"

What I want to know is; if our atmostphere is supposedly 'trapping' all these CO2 emissions and that's what's causing all this warming, why doesn't it all just 'escape' out of the hole in the ozone layer?

Surely if you take these two arguments together it points to one or the other being false?

Then again, I'm not a scientist. That's just a thought I've had.

CO2 isn't trying to get out, and ozone wouldn't stop it if it were.

yes, but it's the CO2 build up that stops the suns rays from escaping (apparently). If there's a hole, why can't the CO2 get out there?

Let's polute space before anyone else does!

If CO2 had any inclination to escape (which, being heavy, it doesn't), it would go straight through the ozone layer, with or without the hole.

maybe they should just design a big cooling vent in the atmosphere then. put in a few big rotors and suck all that nasty carbon gas out.

Here is something that I stumbled upon that I found amusing and interesting. Some nerdy science teacher has created a clever and mildly amusing approach to discussing global warming. It's nearly 10 minutes but hey, let's face it - you're just waiting for an update in Labrat's ass thread anyway.

I've seen that one before. It's an interesting perspective. What do you think lookout?

My view? I think that I don't know enough to present my views in any sort of authoritative way. My feeling is that we humans are harming the planet around us. I don't think it takes a genius to see that. Pollution and environmental damage are undeniable. The problem for me is what do we do about it?

Politicians have grabbed the issue because it is an easy subject to grab attention with. Industry is taking advantage of our limited knowledge and immense gullibility. I haven't bothered to look into it myself, but most things I've seen and heard seem to support the idea that the "green" products do in fact use less energy, but have other side effects that offset any real benefit.

So I will do what I try to do with most issues, take care of what I can see right around me. I turn the lights off when leaving the room. I try not to waste gas and electricity. I try to take care of my environment. Probably all meaningless gestures, but they feel like the right thing to do. I for damn sure will not buy carbon offsets from that douchebag Al Gore.

Wasn't there someone selling carbon credits here? I think I bought one too. hmmm - hafta look at my checkbook to see if I paid....

I think we should just blame it all on Bush and his conspiratorial relationship with the Saudi government, oh that and The Illuminati.

That was never in doubt, but what can we do about it?

There is no global warming debate. Global warming is a fact and it is recognized among all credible climatologists. Those who deny global warming is real and that it is directly connected to the pollution created by industrialized nations are liars, idiots, or have something political or financial to gain from such lies.

It the cows I tell ya, the cows!

Cow burps are indeed part of the problem.
Shall we ask why there are so darn many cows?

: polishes vegetarian halo :

: hushes up carton of milk in the fridge :

I don't think burps are what he had in mind. :D

Maybe, but they burp a lot more methane than they fart.

Did you know, kangaroos eat the same food as cows, extract more nutrition per kilogram from it, and produce a tiny fraction of the methane? Boffins have traced this to the specific bacteria that live in kangaroos' guts, and are trying to get this to adapt to cows' guts. It could save money AND the planet... here's hoping.

Cool beans. Maybe we should all just start to have big Kangaroo farms and start to eat them. Get rid of the cows altogether.

I could see it now, heards of roos with dudes on horses running them up the plains.

I'm all for this. Cows' hard hooves do serious damage to the Australian flora, 'roos are much lower impact.

The only trouble is ownership. See, if you consider a mob of 'roos to be "yours", then you have to build fences to keep them in. BIG fences.

Current 'roo harvesting involves wild 'roos and sharpshooters with spotlights. No branding, de-horning, hormone treatment, anti-biotics, feed-lotting; just hoppity hoppity hoppity bang die.

Sounds sporting. Anyone of you guys ever eat one? How do they taste? I saw some folks eating some on one of those weird food shows a few nights back.

It was years and years ago, but IIRC it was okay but could be tough if overcooked. It's very low cholesterol though.
Emu is also legally edible but I can't remember having eaten it.
Yes, the only country (AFAIK) where we legally eat our Coat of Arms.

Crocodile .... delicious. Looks like fish, tastes like chicken. Very looonnnngg chicken. And from a vego perspective, might be passed off as self-defense.

I have eaten Emu. It is very good. Tastes like chicken. There are a number of mini farms that raise Emu in the US.

We can buy aligator tail in most of the seafood resturants and we buy it and cook it a few times each year for guests as a novelty. It is a bit tough, sort of like rattlesnake.

Roo meat is also very high in protien and low in other fats. It'd be no good to you if you like your meat well done though. It's like venison. Needs to be very rare to be edible. Either that or very slowly roasted.

My cousin is a roo shooter on the weekends. Apparently the Russians love it and are the main importers followed by Japan.

I predict the US will be the next big market for roo meat once those clowns at PETA get over it.

Damm Branson gained some serious weight. Must be due to global warming... that or because of Bush.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/...iness/deal.php

Seriously though, the capitalists with big money seeing a way to make more money, will make more progress than the governments.

Getting back to the science teacher' video, he should have had an economist help him with his graph. But like most alarmists, he expands on his point of view, while minimizing other factors. The economist's graph would look like this:
The list, however would start from the bottom, reading up.

And am I the only one to notice that global warming has expanded proportionately with the smaller number of pirate ships?

Too many unemployeed pirates now restricted to diets of only bake beans.

Record Snow in Alaska

http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/...69856926.shtml

It hailed covering the ground yesterday and snowed here this morning. It's melted but still! I want spring! It never snows on the ground here.


That said did you know the polar ice cap once covered most the upper part of the US? I mean the earth has been warming up for sometime. Perhaps these warming and cooling trends are natural phenomenon. I am sure our pollution contributes but would it be happening anyway?

Quote from skysidhe: "That said did you know the polar ice cap once covered most the upper part of the US? I mean the earth has been warming up for sometime. Perhaps these warming and cooling trends are natural phenomenon. I am sure our pollution contributes but would it be happening anyway?"
That is so obvious, yet no one seems to want to mention it. It's seemed logical to me, long before the politicization of global warming, and even before the global cooling fad of the 70s

That's crazy talk! ;)

That's like how the earth shifting on it's axis is now considered to be a doomsday conspiracy theory....

Everyone needs to go back to classes on natural sciences and natural law.

Watch this great presentation on the migration of humans, and notice how the climate governs human life on earth.

Good one Bruce. I saw a show on discovery regarding that migration.

thanks spud

I don't know what the hell cicero's talking about because on the last page they are talking about eating roo and emu. I've never heard of that doomsday theory or what it has to do with eating roo or melting polar ice caps.

The Earth spins off of it's axis, making one half close to the sun and one far away, making extreme heat and cold.

Kinda like the way the earth is tilted on its axis now?