Being a kid
 

I got married last month, and my wife loves children.

I don't have a lot of experience with children, aside from having been one myself. I basically have no experience with children. So, we plan to have one after I get out of college, and we get stable financially.

This has led me to start thinking about the practice of raising children.

Here's what is I know about my own childhood.

I fucking hated it. Parents are dictators and children are the slaves. Children are seen as secondary citizens -- they are not even real people. Their opinions do not matter, and they are expected to 'do as they're told'. That parents profess to love their children is to my constant astonishment.

For example, when a kid is talking about something he thinks is cool, the parents often get bored with him and tell him to leave the room. This is bullshit. People's opinions matter -- especially if you love them.

To this day, my parents have never professed even a passing interest in anything I liked. Computers, Dungeons and Dragons, fantasy novels, everything I loved was seen as an obstacle to school. My mother seemed to make it a point to dislike everything I liked.

My father would always joke that they had me and my brother just so we could do chores for them. You were born so that I don't have to take out the trash. Do it, slave.

If I were to ask too many questions, I was told to shut up. If i was to bother my parents by speaking too much, I was told to be quiet, and go play.

My parents looked down on me. Although they professed to love me, they made it clear that I was not as good as they were. They were superior in every way. Oh, do you have an opinion? That's so sweet. Let's hear your "opinion", moron.

Please explain to me why I should love someone who does not value my opinion, hates everything that I love, and forces me to do menial labor purely for the goal of humiliation.


This is how I saw my life as a kid. Of course, now that i'm older, I have a much better relationship with my parents.

I understand being friends with someone means listening to their boring nonsense and pretending to be interested. In turn, they will listen to your boring drivel, and then you'll feel better about yourself. This epiphany helped me a lot in dealing with family.

Anyway, my point is, the above ranting applied when I was a kid -- it doesn't anymore. Since i'm no longer a kid, i'm no longer a second-class citizen in their eyes. I'm an equal now.

More to come on how i will apply this knowledge to raising own kids.

My mother and stepfather were pretty cool growing up. I think they did a good job of teaching me right and wrong, and about being my own person. They never pushed me to do things I didn't want to do, they just encouraged me.

My mom tends to knee-jerk a lot though. Jumps to conclusions very easily. I'm working on her though. ;)

My stepdad is pretty laid back for the most part. He used to yell a lot when I was a child, which I attribute to his alcoholism. He still drinks, but I would say it's more..."controlled."

Just before I moved out of my house (in '99), I was almost at boiling point with them. Lots of silly arguing...all of us wishing that I could move out.

Now, I think they feel guilty. The timeframe between me deciding to look for a job on the East Coast and me moving to Washington was a mere 3 weeks. I thought about it all thoroughly; it just happened rather fast. Completely caught them off guard. Now, they keep nudging Rho and I to move to St. Louis.

Oh, fuck no! I love St. Louis...it will always be my home. But there's a very good reason I left there--because I was bored with it. It was time to go...it wasn't because I wanted to get as far away from my 'rents, or anything like that. Not to mention, the reaction towards mixed couples out there is ummm...in need of some work.

That brings up another little quirk in my parents. I would call my parents "unintentioned racists." They had black friends, but would be quick to blame things on "those fucking niggers." This came to a head about 5 or so years ago. There was a gal that used to come into my bank that I was smitten with...she was black. I think there was some mutual interest, but it wound up going nowhere. Well, I happened to mention this to my mother, and she got kinda irritated by it. I was furious...there was no way in hell ANYONE was going to tell me who I could and could not date. And I think it finally hit home when I gently reminded my mother that we are Native American, which is considered a minority in this country.

After that, things were completely cool. They didn't shit a brick when I was engaged to Mimi (who is Hispanic), and they love Rho (who is black) to death.

I think now that my parents learn as much from me as I do from them...and in the end, that seems to be the ultimate reward from parenting.

sycamore, your point has been made, but I think some of it is lost in your racism.

What purpose did using the word "nigger" serve, you racist?

P.S. - tell Rho I said hi.

"What are you, Gene Autry or something? I just cuss to get my point across."--Eazy-E

PS--Rho says, "Kill all de white people."

I think moving out of home does a lot to change that second class citizen thing. My mother still believes that I cannot do anything properly myself, and that I have to be supervised. I'm 21. And I'm moving out on Monday thank heaven.

My parents had that "you must respect me" deal going on, but I believe respect breeds respect. If you don't respect your kids and their opinions, they're not going to respect you. And if you try drumming that "respect" into them it's not gonna work. It didn't with me. Perhaps I really was the kid from hell. Meh.

Interesting. This summarizes what I was thinking very nicely. I must condense all of my thoughts this way.

Be sure you're ready for a kid. Be sure you really want a kid. Having taught public school, it was very good birth control, and we are child free by choice. There were, are, so many parents that just seemed to accidently reproduce, its what you do next, and I saw a lot of kids that were in some dire straights. I love kids, I'm everyone's aunt, but raising kids doesnt fit for us, and besides pressure from my Mom to be a grandma, its been an easy decision.

Moms: The only females in the family, my mother and I are polar opposites. Always have been. I'm a tom boy, under the social radar, couldnt wait to get out of the house, town, state. She's classic 50's homecoming queen, prim, proper. She was a good mom. Didnt quite get me, but I always knew she loved me. We've lived hundreds of miles apart since I was 18. In my 20s we really emotionally drifted. She was so conservative, freaking that I was a lesbian, kept sending me make-up and dresses. I couldnt stand her narrow ways, was pretty militant. A few year back it all broke. I realized I really wanted her in my life. Sure she's a freak, so am I. And I saw how incredibly vulnerable she was/is. Here I'm being all victimy and all along she's crushed because I was rude to her. (And I was very rude,I really hurt her, if not more then as much as she me. gulp) So we're better. Still want to throttle each other, but...stop, and dont.

So you want to be a parent? Keep your own experiences in mind when you do- kids deserve love, respect, guidance and time. They will be more important to you than you, and that's being a good parent.

That's great to hear warch! You should definitely chip in two cents over in my childfree thread. :)

juju, i grew up in the same kind of household. well, with my father at least. for a while when i was about 9-11, my father insisted that i address him as 'sir'. dont really know what happened to him being 'dad', as that is the title i want most out of this world. i think part of the problem is that partents dont try to share their interests with their children. i love the outdoors, video games, photography, and various other things which i hope to expose my son to, to connect with him as a friend as well as a father. understanding though, that children will develop their own interests and goals to pursue, is important as well. i was never interested in football or wrestling when i was young, but i was pushed into those things by my father because 'thats what men like'. i resent that, and as long as my son develops healthy interests, it doesnt matter to me if theyre my ideals. all that matters is that he be supported in those pursuits. if my son is quarterback of his high school football team, you can be damn sure ill be at every game, even if i dont know necessarily whats going on.

amen, sycamore. my ultimate goal is become a better person through my children.

i talk too much about my kid. i think its the overwhelming sense of pride. :)

~james

Nothing wrong with gloating about your kid...I imagine that he consumes most of your world right now. :)

oh he does. i moved to second shift at work so that i would be away from him when hes asleep. spending the days with him is a blast. the only thing i worry about is him getting interaction with kids his age, which a daycare would provide.

~james

Having you around to play with is far better than any daycare. Enjoy your time.

Well, i'm 26, and my wife is 27. I do prefer to have my own freedom. On the other hand, I'd hate to be a genetic dead-end. Also, her biological clock is ticking. Like I said in another thread, if we wait 'till we're 40, she might not even be able to conceive at all.

I'd really like to wait, but we can't realistically wait too long. So, my plan is to wait until I get my degree, get moved, and get a nice income going. I have maybe 1 1/2 years of college left. So, if everything works out okay, we're looking at 3 years from now (maybe.. you never know what life will throw at you).


Yeah, that's a point well taken. It's just that no one seems to actually <b>do</b> this.

See, it's this kind of purposeful humiliation that makes me <b>so angry</b>. How can you love someone and then tell them, "i'm better than you"?


Yeah, I wouldn't really want to force my kids into any particular interests. I'm sure they'll like all kinds of things that I don't. But it's like I said before -- if you want to be at least partial friends with your kids, you need to at least pretend to be a little bit interested in their boring nonsense. Otherwise, you don't really love your child as a person. You just love the idea of having a child.

So, do you have any problems getting sleep?

sometimes. i get home around midnight, he usually wakes up for a feeding at 1, so i stay up until thats over. usually wakes up around 7 hungry, so i feed him then, and he usually sleeps until 9ish. so i get a good 7-8 hours most nights. its nights like last night, when he was fighting a stomach bug, that get difficult.

im not sure that was a conscious intent, his intent was to instill respect. either way, its still the wrong way to go about it. basilbrush said respect breeds respect, and i think thats true. my father never understood that. i was his son, so dammit, i owe him respect. well, i dont know about respect, but sometimes i feel like i owe him a good asskicking.

but its like warch said, are you sure you really want kids? propogation of your bloodline isnt whats important nowadays, at least thats how i see it. if youre happy just being a couple, and choose to just stay a couple, thats a great decision. my wife and i talked about that too. i wont say youre not missing anything if you dont have kids, but i will say that ive missed things by being a father. i dont regret it, i made a conscious decision to give up that life for the one i have now. some people think its selfish to not have children, and thats bullshit. its your life and you get to decide how to live it. down either path is the potential to live life to its fullest.

please dont take the above rant wrong, its just that ive heard too many people say they want children because they dont want their 'name to die' and mean it in all seriousness. i know thats not your angle. you obviously feel very strongly about it, and i dont doubt that you will be a wonderful father if and when the time comes. being a dad is great, and it gets better every day.

~james

Hmmm. Interesting topics about kids. I think it is very important to set limits and assert parental authority. I've sometimes said (only half jokingly) that I think part of my job is to give my kids something to rebel against. Does this make them second class citizens? If so, I can deal with it. But, I think there is a difference between not valuing their opinions and setting limits. Will we let our kids go on about what they did at school, or describe their latest idea? Sure. (My 3yo son is now very interested in having everybody in the family get a clarinet, since I have one... my daughter, now 6, used to ask how long it takes to go to Saturn and why we can't go there instead of the Poconos for our vacation). But that doesn't mean that things like bedtime or cleaning up are subject to family debate. I think what's hard (for kids and parents both) is to let the kids have free reign in some areas and not in other, and have everybody understand where the boundaries are.

There's a big difference between authoritarian and authoritative.

I certainly respected my parents...still do, of course. They set some limits, which I didn't always agree with, but looking back now, I know they were doing the right thing...and were only looking out for my best interest.

My parents took a mild interest in my hobbies. They weren't always on the bandwagon, but they never stopped me from doing what I wanted to, so long as it wasn't hurting anybody.

My mom and I are particularly close...we're only 19 years apart, and it was just the two of us for 4 years. My stepdad aren't exactly close, but we have a good relationship, and he always treated me like I was his own child...and I respected him as if he were my real father.

Did anyone happen to catch the first Dr. Phil show this Monday? He talked about people who lose control of their tempers, and how it affects children.

So, he had this woman on who yells at her son all the time. One of the most hilarious parts was when he revealed that they had installed a hidden camera in the woman's car. So they played this tape of her and her son driving, and she's screaming at him the whole time. You don't do this, you don't do that, blah blah blah. They basically force her to watch it. Then she yells something like "Shut up, Vincent!" And they just fucking loop it over and over again. "Shut up, Vincent!" "Shut up, Vincent!" "Shut up, Vincent!" "Shut up, Vincent!" "Shut up, Vincent!" There's a bunch of tvs spaced all around the background, and the video pops up on an additional tv like every 2nd or 3rd loop.. so it just grows and grows and grows in tension. And then the camera like zooms in on the kid, and he's all freaking out and shit, has his hands over his face and stuff to try to block her out. This same phrase over and over. Hahahah.. she breaks down crying and starts blubbering, "Oh i'm so sorry".

Yeah, you better be sorry, bitch.


They also had a woman who got in a "altercation" with another woman who cut in front of her in line at the supermarket. She seemed quite proud of herself for standing up for her beliefs, but she also came off as rather unstable to me. Really, what the fuck is wrong with people? Getting in a fist fight with a stranger because they cut in front of you in line?? Just relax and take it easy.. life's to short to be pissed off all the time.

there are certain things i dont think should ever be said to a child. 'shut up' is one of them.

when james was ~4 months old, he was getting sick with ear infections quite a bit. my wife was back at work and he was sleeping during the day when he slept at all. we were up with him in shifts. by about the third night in a row, we were both at the end of our rope. it was my turn and james had cried inconsolably for 2 hours, and i, in delerium and frustration, told him to shut up. the moment the words left my mouth, exhaustion, delerium, frustration, all left me and i was left with an overwhelming sense of guilt over what i had said. i will never get over saying that.

i will never say 'bad boy' to my son. i say 'good boy' all the time, partly to positively reinforce good behaviour and partly because he is a good boy. il never call him a bad boy because thats just name-calling.

~james

Is it me, or does perth have his shit together?

I bet mini-perth grows up to be President or some shit like that.

i spend a lot of time thinking about how i want to raise my kid. my wife and i talk about it a lot. do i have my shit together? no, you should see how terrible i am with money. but thank you for saying so. and if he does turn out to be president, it will be despite me, not because of me. id rather he be a lawyer. :)

~james

There are few things you can do that are as important as how you raise a child. I'm sure that whatever you lack in other departments, you more than make up for it with your lucidity in the area of raising James. You've definitely earned my respect.

thank you. :)