The Cellar - Arnica

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- Health (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=33)

- - Arnica (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=16374)

Following on from a comment in another thread.... what's the low down on Arnica, then? I bruise like a bugger. I have friends who swear by it -taken orally and applied topically, but skeptical old me hasn't seen any effect...

Do you use it? Orally or topically? How do you know it works -what effect does it have on you? Is it bruise reducing, pain-relieving or both?

I haven't seen any effect from oral usage. I used it last night and this morning as a topical cream and it appears to reduce pain and swelling.

WHat did you used to use before you discovered Arnica? Do you use ice too?

Ice for swelling followed by heat for loosening. Advil usually works for swelling for me as well. I only tried the arnica cream after my coach raved about it.

I've used arnica in a diffusion with other herbs as a wound wash, to reduce swelling and bruising in a fresh piercing.

Does anyone think it's a load of tosh? (no personal attacks please -cept on me -you can fire away :lol:)

We use arnica for bruises at our place, and with two little boys, there's a fair bit of it. I think it helps.

We also use comfrey for strains and sprains etc. Actually, those two are important parts of the first aid kit we take when we go camping mainly because you don't want to be damaged on a camping trip, and if it's a serious injury, you want to be able to do every little thing you can for it while you're trying to get help.

I keep both pill and gel form on hand and use it on all variety of boo boos. Either it works or my kids just don't bruise or feel pain after a minute or 2.

Actually, my PS suggested taking it orally for a week before my surgery, and for some time after. I did - and had zero bruising.

I think that's a good tip, Jinx (take before surgery). As long as you tell your doctor you're taking it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

Does anyone think it's a load of tosh?

My mother used to make me put on a topical gel form for sore muscles, and it never did one damn bit of good. But it sounds from the comments here that it's supposed to be more for injuries than strained muscles, so maybe I wasn't using it right.

As I understand it, it's supposed to reduce bruising and so the associated pain and swelling, but I could be horribly wrong, and even if I'm not, I'm not sure how it works

Arnica speeds up your white blood cells, so fights pool blood (bruise) and inflamed joints, it also helps with blood circulation.

I swear by it!!

The super natural stuff is supplied over here in a pill that is dissolved under the tongue, that great for quick action after an injury....the supplement herb is great taken prior.

I havent had much success with the external creams/gels etc.

How does it "speed up" your while blood cells?

Theres a gazillion little tazers running around your body, poking the white blood cells in the arse.....racist little buggers.

Sheesh Monster, accept that it works and get on with it :p

How does Garlic help with colds? How does Evening Primrose Oil help with ya girlie probs? How does St Johns help with depression?

garlic helps with colds? That's a new one on me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DucksNuts

How does Garlic help with colds? How does Evening Primrose Oil help with ya girlie probs? How does St Johns help with depression?

...From the context, I would have to assume you are presenting these as obvious examples of things that work. :eyebrow:

Thanks, clod ... couldn't bring myself to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud (Post 424273)

garlic helps with colds? That's a new one on me.

replace cold with "vampire" and you will see positive results fo sho.

you knows i loves ya.

Garlic helps reduce the spread of colds because it keeps people from being in close contact with each other due to the atrocious breath it generates. just sayin...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123 (Post 424474)

you knows i loves ya.

Wasnt directed at you honey ;)

How does Tylenol reduce fever?

It doesn't, in my experience. Acetamenophen reduces pain by inhibiting the pain receptors. sometimes permanently -my colleague when I was a postgrad described very eloquently how brain cells appear to "pop" when under the influence of the drug. Fun. If that's how it works, I'll take the beer option :)

I love this helpful description from the tylenol website:

How does Tylenol work?

Quote:

Acetaminophen, the active ingredient in Tylenol products, is thought to relieve mild to moderate pain by elevating your body's overall pain threshold. Acetaminophen is thought to lower your fever by helping your body eliminate excess heat.

Oh right! makes perfect sense now.....

But more seriously, Acetomenophen does work to kill pain for me (if I'm really desperate -I prefer not to take it), but Arnica doesn't seem to and i thought I'd understand why or why I didn't notice the effect better if I knew how it worked.

and going off at a tangent......
I hate the way that homeopathic seems to be used as a synonym for "we can't explain how it works". Arnica does not cause bruising and swelling when appliesd in excess, (?does it?) therefore it's not technically a homeopathic remedy

Did you read the wiki on arnica (helenalin)?

No, I didn't, thanks. interesting, but woefully incomplete. it amazes me that so many people feel it is an effective remedy and yet there is (comparitively) so little research. No $$ in it, I guess. (I mean this in the why isn't there more research rather than the why do they feel it is effective sense)

Re-reading, I realise I come across as totally ant-arnica, anti-alternative etc. and I'm not at all. I have arnica gel. I just didn't notice any effect, except that the gel made the icepack stick too much... Well OK maybe I am a bi anti -but I'm anti everything until i see proof. Ish. but I try most things too, unless I see proof that they're more harmful than good. I'm certainly not in the Rx drugs only camp.

I don't think you came across that way monster, just seemed like you were asking questions.

Am I the only one who thinks that Arnica sounds like the name of the new nation that will form from the southwestern third of the USA after the Second American Civil War later this year?

I'm afraid you are mistaken. John Titor gave no clear indication that this would come about.

http://www.cafepress.com/johntitorshop

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) works by inhibiting the synthesis of prostaglandins in the central nervous system and peripherally blocks pain impulse generation through an unknown mechanism. It's antipyretic effect is due to an inhibiting action in the hypothalamus heat regulation center in the brain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 425407)

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) works by inhibiting the synthesis of prostaglandins in the central nervous system and peripherally blocks pain impulse generation through an unknown mechanism. It's antipyretic effect is due to an inhibiting action in the hypothalamus heat regulation center in the brain.

So you don't know either eh? Your answer was better than the one monster found on Tylenol's site.
The wiki pretty much sums up what a few minutes on google will tell you; no one really knows for sure. But it works, so people take it and give it to their kids, just like arnica. Except you can't damage your liver with arnica...

Quote:

Mechanism of action

The mechanism by which paracetamol reduces fever and pain is still a source of considerable debate[citation needed]. The reason for this confusion has largely been due to the fact that paracetamol reduces the production of prostaglandins, pro-inflammatory chemicals the production of which is also inhibited by aspirin, but, unlike aspirin, paracetamol does not have much anti-inflammatory action. Likewise, whereas aspirin inhibits the production of the pro-clotting chemicals thromboxanes, paracetamol does not. Aspirin is known to inhibit the cyclooxygenase (COX) family of enzymes, and, because of paracetamol's partial similarity of aspirin's action, much research has focused on whether paracetamol also inhibits COX. It is now clear, however, that paracetamol acts via (at least) two pathways.[6][7][8][9]
The COX family of enzymes are responsible for the metabolism of arachidonic acid to prostaglandin H2, an unstable molecule, which is, in turn, converted to numerous other pro-inflammatory compounds. Classical anti-inflammatories, such as the NSAIDs, block this step. The activity of the COX enzyme relies on its being in the oxidized form to be specific, tyrosine 385 must be oxidized to a radical.[10][11] It has been shown that paracetamol reduces the oxidized form of the COX enzyme, preventing it from forming pro-inflammatory chemicals.[7][12]
Further research has shown that paracetamol also modulates the endogenous cannabinoid system.[13] Paracetamol is metabolized to AM404, a compound with several actions; most important, it inhibits the uptake of the endogenous cannabinoid/vanilloid anandamide by neurons. Anandamide uptake would result in the activation of the main pain receptor (nociceptor) of the body, the TRPV1 (older name: vanilloid receptor). Furthermore, AM404 inhibits sodium channels such as anesthetics, lidocaine and procaine.[14] Either of these actions by themselves has been shown to reduce pain, and are a possible mechanism for paracetamol, though it has been demonstrated that, after blocking cannabinoid receptors and hence making any action of cannabinoid reuptake irrelevant, paracetamol no longer has any analgesic effect, suggesting its pain-relieving action is indeed mediated by the endogenous cannabinoid system.[15]
A theory that held some sway, but has now largely been discarded, is that paracetamol inhibits the COX-3 isoform of the cyclooxygenase family of enzymes.[6][16] This enzyme, when expressed in dogs, shares a strong similarity to the other COX enzymes, produces pro-inflammatory chemicals, and is selectively inhibited by paracetamol. However, in humans and mice, the COX-3 enzyme is without inflammatory action, and is not modulated by paracetamol.[6]

Mine was from memory.

I can draw you the COX enzyme pathways on a napkin if you like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx (Post 425421)

Memory from when?

From when I went to school to study all that crap. Most of it was dumped after test after test after test after paper after research after test. Some stuff never goes away, the rest is like riding a bike, once you get on you it all comes back.

Acetaminophen and the Cyclooxygenase-3 Puzzle: Sorting out Facts, Fictions, and Uncertainties

Received February 24, 2005; accepted May 5, 2005.

Quote:

Cyclooxygenase (COX)-3, a novel COX splice variant, was suggested as the key to unlocking the mystery of the mechanism of action of acetaminophen. Although COX-3 might have COX activity in canines, and this activity might be inhibited by acetaminophen, its low expression level and the kinetics indicate unlikely clinical relevance. In rodents and humans, COX-3 encodes proteins with completely different amino acid sequences than COX-1 or COX-2 and without COX activity; therefore, it is improbable that COX-3 in these species plays a role in prostaglandin-mediated fever and pain. The aim of this review is to evaluate the literature that seeks to point out critical theoretical and methodological limitations of the COX-3 studies that led several investigators to scientifically questionable conclusions....

In 2002, Dan Simmons' group reported the discovery of a new COX isoenzyme that was putatively the specific target of acetaminophen. The discovery of the so-called COX-3 as an acetaminophen-sensitive isoform seemed to solve the mystery of acetaminophen and attracted considerable attention, and several commentaries were published quickly in prominent scientific journals. This discovery in canines was generalized to humans and rodents without critical evaluation of the experimental data. Unfortunately, many in the scientific community now believe that the mechanism of action of acetaminophen is selective inhibition of COX-3; however, this hypothesis is not supported by experimental evidence. The aim of this review is to thoroughly evaluate the scientific literature with particular examination of the critical theoretical and methodological contradictions of the COX-3 puzzle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx (Post 425418)

the one monster found on Tylenol's site...

yebbut even GWB could explain in better than that.....while choking on a pretzel...

Im surprised there was no mention of fairy dust actually...

Side effects, precautions, interactions of arnica

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When used frequently or for long periods, arnica can cause contact dermatitis or eczema. Some people may experience stomach discomfort, including nausea and vomiting. Liver and kidney damage has also been reported.

from here:

http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/...nts/arnica.php

:/

hey no shit... thanks.

Yea, COX-3's were not even on the radar screen when I was in school.