Bhutto dead in Rawalpindi
 

No comment? How bout a freakin "sorry" at least? Grrrr :mad:

Hey, put the gun down. ;)

He's not great with words. I'm sure his staff writer will come up with something appropriate.

It's too late when he doesn't say Something after its reported that he knew. A decisive and intelligent leader would say the right thing immediately. All he had to do was show compassion. Anything would be better than a canned speech later. Thats not only lame as a president or leader its lame, really lame, as a person.

This is half his problem - He isn't that smart - He isn't the best speaker - He is supposed to be a moral man - use that for G--s sake! Pretty much all he has left - if he's got that at all.

Ok then. :biggrin:

Classicman, and I say this as a poster who rather likes you personally, shut the hell up. You're really asking the Leader Of The Free World to blurt. I don't think he should blurt.

Allow statesmanship to be, and don't try honoring Benazir Bhutto's memory by getting hysterical. We saw enough of that to last a lifetime on the morning of 9/11 -- outrageous then, and I'm not going to take it now.

Turning to the spark of all this: suicide attack by gunman who then kills twenty blowing himself into pink mist -- sounds to me like somebody's hostile to political reform in Islam, and Bhutto would have been a likely focal point.

Yes, the whole thing is sad. It's a tragedy for the Pak people.

I don't understand all the politics there or all the history. When I was there to visit though, they were the nicest people anyone would care to meet.

Rawalpindi is very friendly to foreigners and they were surely friendly and protective of me during my trip. There are a handful of people that I am still incontact with there. My communications with that country have have trickled to just a few e-mails a year now with some links to other interesting places that my adventures take me.

Soon after arriving there, I started asking people about Musharraf. If they were supporters, did they approve of his policies and such things. Most of the people I talked to were supporters and approved of the assistance to the west.

Those opinions may well have been politeness in my presence.

In just 2 years the tide has changed for Musharraf. I'm guessing that this is moreso outside of Rawalpindi and Lahore.

Peshawar and Karachi seemed to be hotspots for the fundimentalists. Quetta seemed to be a bit more extreme yet.

I wish them the best though and I'd surely like to go back again someday. It's a Muslim country (or Pindi anyway ) that is surely tolerant to foreign Christians so long as they aren't there for missionary work. ;)

UG, you might as well take your own advice. If Bush were 1/10 the leader you wesapouse, he would have said and done the right thing immediately. Unfortunately, he isn't smart enough or capable of forming a sincere sense of condolences from the people whom he supposedly represents, the American people.

Then again maybe his silence did....... we'll see.

very shocking. She was definitely living dangerously, though.

I think it's painfully clear that Musharraf was behind this assassination. First he locks up all the judges, then he delays elections and puts the country under martial law....then he refuses to increase security after being begged by Bhutto's people.

He was about to lose the election so he took steps to make sure that didn't happen. The news just glossed over this, but at the same time Bhutto was killed, the other opposition leader in the election was also attacked.

I agree with your take on this Radar. Too many coincidences, not just on this, but the last few months also.

'A Wrong Must Be Righted'

excerpts from a Parade interview with Bhutto.

I agree with Radar, I am certain Musharraf was behind it.

Musharraf wants to keep power, we might (prediction) see more of Pakistan in the future with relations to India. Both are militarizing fast.

Very bad situation indeed.

Most likely it'll descend into civil war and then the west will decide to choose sides.

Actually, I don't know who did it. The media is going crazy about it because Bhutto was pro-western and they are blaming Al Qaeda but don't have the evidence to support it.

If the country gets back together, I doubt the ruler will be pro-Western, which complicates things with the nuke issue. If they don't get together, which is another good possibility, that region will be very interesting to watch.

A sniper attack would have been more Musharraf's style. A suicide bomber? That's religious extremism.
:2cents:

not if you don't want people to know you did it. I think the actual perps were fed the info and everything else they needed to get this done by him.

It was something like this....

Terrorist: Mr. Musharraf, I'm for free elections in Pakistan <wink wink>, so if I wanted to go to a rally in support of Benazir Bhutto, where should I go?

Musharraf: That's classified information and I can't divulge that without risking her safety. <cough...Rawalpindi...<cough>

AQ have claimed responsibility.

Musharraf is at fault as well. He promised protection but it wasn't there.

The decision to postpone elections will be interesting. There is no one else besides Musharraf at this point so he will probably win if they are not postponed and I don't think that will help the situation at all. But a new leader could shake things up just as much and the US will get involved if a very anti-western leader pops up, which is very likely from what I've heard.

It's to the radical Islamics advantage to maintain the status quo.

As long as the people of Pakistan are brutally oppressed by police, that are in fact the armies of fuedal landlords, the only option is to turn to Al Q for justice, just as the immigrants turned to the Godfathers, in major US cities. This is one way the radicals are winning over the moderates.

Another way is the lack of an effective education system. The dysfunctional public schools are being replaced with thousands of Madrassa (religious schools) teaching radical islamic politics.

I don't think he was directly behind it. He merely failed to give her the protection she wanted and knew that sooner or later the extremists would find a way to kill her. He knew what would happen but you will never be able to directly tie her death to him. Allowing them to kill her garnered support among the extremists. To bad there is really no promise that he will not be next, which is quite possible.

It's sort of ironic. We psyched ourselves up to go after a dictator posing as a democratic leader that we had helped stay in power because we thought he might be considering developing nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, in the second theater of operations, we prop up another dictator posing as a democratic leader who we know has nuclear weapons because he controls one of the borders and has promised to clean up an area where we know our enemies are located but where we cannot go at them directly so as not to offend this guy and because we are overstretched because of the going after the other dictator who didn't really have anything and was nowhere near as dangerous as the guy we are going to for help.

I would personally like to thank this administration for providing the intelligence that led us to this exciting moment in world history. I was a mere toddler during the Cuban missile crisis and missed out on truly appreciating the fear and anxiety adults had over the possibility of world destruction. Our current geopolitical thrill ride hasn't quite reached that point yet, but I have high hopes that the general incompetence of our administration in any diplomacy that doesn't involve a few army divisions or a flight of stealth bombers will soon give us that adrenaline pumping moment that you normally have to pay $30 at an amusement park to experience.:right:

I'm still too pissed about Ms Bhutto to really be rational. Suffice to say that I fear that Pakistan is on the way down a really scummy political toilet, and that its descent into a Muslim Extremist safe harbor has greatly accelerated.

I admired her very much, despite all claims of malfeasance and politically augmented money grabbing. She was a groundbreaker in the world of women's rights in Muslim society, an almost regally composed individual of surpassing beauty and charisma.

I want the fuckers who are responsible for this murder skewered on rusty poles in the public square.

Pakistan, as a defacto military dictatorship, is about five minutes from providing a nuclear warhead to the Taliban, Al Qaeda or some other fringe fucking towelheaded group whose only concern is the death of infidels.

This shit scares me spitless.

The suicide bomb was just to scatter the useful evidence, in the unlikely event that anyone who both cared and was qualified to evaluate same happened to start poking around.

Well her husband and kids were where? When this went down. Not out riding donkeys?

If they were, nobody would vote for her. The country is full of people with those qualifications. She graduated from Radcliffe (Harvard) and certainly didn't have to go to Pakistan and put her ass on the line, to make a living.

She knew she was putting her life on the line. She fucking *knew* it. Who among us has balls that big?

She was martyred in the truest sense of the word. I hope to fuck that her elevation to such a woefully exalted status bites the asses of the fucks that did her in - hard, fast, and permanent.

As usual, well put els - I agree wholeheartedly. Most people would have willingly "run" to the safety of the US or wherever....

You are correct. She knew it for a certainty. They had already tried when she first came back and they killed over 170 people. She knew it would happen, and she told people if it did, Musharraf would be behind it.

I have had people threaten me before on the internet and say they were going to kill me or gut me. I dared them to come to my house and posted my home address. As I suspected, they were all talk.

But in her case, she knew it was real. I don't think I'd be as gutsy as she was. She really loved her country and whether or not you agree with her politics, she stood up to a dictator and did what she thought was best for her people even though she knew it would most likely cost her life.

She's a hero in my book. I only hope the outrage for this gets the people to overthrow Musharraf's military controlled government. That's a scary thought considering nukes are involved, but I'd trust the Bhutto loving moderates of Pakistan more than I trust Musharraf.

She didn't just know the threats against her were real. She also had personal experience of political violence, with her father executed and two of her brothers assassinated.

I admired her. Despite the cloud of corruption she was the best chance of democracy that Pakistan had and she was brave and deeply committed to her country. Despite, even, the feudal nature of her dynasty (continued now by the selection of her husband and son as co-chairs of the party) she was a great woman and is a great loss.

I don't buy that for one minute. She said so on numerous interviews that were re-aired within the days after her death.

Re-read what Dana wrote and emphasis the "just".

I stand corrected. I read it wrong.

I have strong doubts about a confession extracted from a 15 year old boy.
I have a friend from Pakistan who, despite being well connected, was once arrested for traffic offenses. They took him down to the cells and then, just as a demonstration, grabbed an old prisoner at random and gave him five huge floggings over the buttocks with a heavy leather strap.
My friend got the message, called his family and had them come up with the substantial "fine".
How long is a fifteen year old lad going to withstand that sort of interrogation?


Meh, who actually pulled the trigger is a minor matter. Who armed and sent them? Probably some Islamic extremists, maybe even the ones who are being blamed. But who failed to provide the security that was so obviously needed? Musharraf. I'm smelling a tacit conspiracy where two opposites silently cooperate to eliminate a third mutual foe.

The more I read about it, the more I think she martyred herself.

Paki Police ~ You're guilty and must pay a fine.
Pussy ~ I'm well connected.
Paki Police ~ Oh yeah, just watch us spank this other guy.
Pussy ~ OMG, I'll pay, I'll pay, don't spank anyone else.

A 15 year old mountain guerrilla, with three to five years experience, isn't worried about getting spanked.

The flogging - not spanking - was just a demonstration. A warm up, if you like. Use your imagination for rounds two, three and seventeen...
And I guess his training, such as it was, did not include interrogation resistance. More running about with a gun and shouting "Allah Akbar" and stuff. Just a guess.

Odds are heavy that this kid was/is just a pawn. The real questions asked much earlier in this thread remain.

Wait a minute - I thought she killed herself bumping her head on the roof of the car. What happened to that ridiculous explanation?

The video footage used by police to identify the shooters proved that she was shot before her head bumped anywhere.

I agree. The bomb was a cover up, either by the shooter or by someone sent along to make sure that no one would be around to talk.

Srsly, did the gov't ever retract their stupid claim? thats what I was referring to - we all know and saw what really happened.

As far as I know they are sticking to their story. Idiots.

The head bumping story is the most ludicrous piece of BS I have heard in a very long time.
Even if it were true, whoever caused her to duck so violently as to fatally bump her head still murdered her. But really, I'm somewhere between :headshake and :lol: in response to that story.

me too Zen - thats what prompted me to ask. It really scares me to think that a gov't which expects ANYONE to believe a story like that has nukes. :shudder:

You might be interested in the Children Overboard scandal from a few years back Classic, although that being said, Australia doesn't have nukes.