Ode to the full service gas station
 

which, if it isn't dead yet, is at least a dying breed. They are rapidly disappearing from the landscape.

I am, I'm ashamed to admit, unable to check the pressure on my tires myself or check or change the oil (not to mention change a tire, but that's another issue). Yeah, I know they are easy tasks, and I could learn to do them. But dammit, I don't wanna!

I used to take my car in once a month to the full service station to get the tires and fluids checked. So what if I paid a bit more for gas? I usually wouldn't even get a full tank. But now, with the price of gas, full-service is going the way of the dodo. Now there's no place to take my car to, so what am I going to do?

Around here, all the oil change places check your tires and fluids, and often will even rotate the tires and/or top off the fluids, free of charge with the oil change.

Get AAA and take your car to a regular shop for maintenance. They usually have package deals oil change/fluid checks etc. I just got a bunch of coupons in the mail for maintenance crap from the place I bought my car...

That's basically what I've been doing, but I need to check the oil and tires far more often than I need to change the oil or rotate the tires or something. They say tire pressure really affects your gas mileage.

I'm not great with "car stuff"--breakdowns make me very nervous, which is why I tried to buy the most reliable car I could find. But I want to take responsibility for it and keep it running for a while. I've wanted to get a tire gauge for a while, but I think there are several different kinds, and some of them are duds. Don't know which kind is good.

ALTERNATIVELY, YOU COULD USE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRY A NEW FIELD

PICK UP A SMALL REPAIR MANUAL FOR YOUR CAR ON BASIC MAINTENCE AND TURN IT INTO A SMALL HOBBY. I KNOW THIS SOUNDS LIKE IM A DUMBASS BUT SERIOUSLY STICK WITH IT FOR TWO WEEKS AND JUST CHECK THINGS

EVEN IF YOU NEVER GO BACK TO IT AGAIN YOU MIGHT LEARN SKILLS THAT YOU CAN APPLY IN OTHER AREAS OF YOUR LIFE

I FEEL THAT IN HAVING DONE SO MYSELF I AM A MORE WELL ROUNDED PERSON

That's good advice. Unfortunately not for me. I've tried similar things before with poor results, and I know that I am not mechanically minded. Years ago, when I bought a really nice ten-speed bicycle, I decided I was really going to learn to take care of it. I took a class, I got and read several books, I tinkered with it. And when I finally got down to serious maintenance . . . I took it apart and could not get it together by myself.

I have lots of talents, and lots of hobbies. I know my strengths and weaknesses. I would not trust anything I did to my car myself to be right.

I don't check my oil, I just get it changed regularly.
Tire pressure drops with the temperature. Unless you have leaky tires it shouldn't be an issue for you more then once a year.
I have auto tire pressure sensors, even for the spare (yeah, its not annoying at all to have that info flashing at me for weeks on end because putting air in the spare is a huge PIA).

ARE ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS MECHANICALLY MINDED? IF THAT IS THE CASE THEN MAYBE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING FOR THEM IN EXCHANGE FOR THEM CHECKING YOUR CAR OUT OCCASIONALLY

PERHAPS YOU CAN PAINT OR COOK OR DO SOMETHING FOR THEM AND SET UP A ROUTINE

YOU CAN GET MANY SERVICES VERY CHEAPLY THIS WAY IF YOU LIVE IN SMALLER AREAS WHERE IT IS NOT CONVIENT TO GO INTO TOWN AT A SERVICE STATION OR A MECHANIC

JUST MY TWO CENTS

Well just bless your large fonts. :2cents:

I predict, sometime in the future, the rise of the "luxury" gas station, back to full service.

. . . I'm waiting.

Okay. Who let the retards out of their pen?

(I'm not talking about Cloud, I'm talking about the shouter.)

How much would you be willing to pay?
Because this makes me wonder if station owners would allow independent workers to operate in their driveways. The gas is at the regular price and self serve is an option. But if you prefer, the bum who used to wash windscreens at the traffic lights will do any of the following:
pump your gas ... $1
wash your glass ...$1
check your tires ...$1
check your oil ......$1
sell you crack ... (negotiable)

S/he might spend 10 or 15 minutes doing a full check on a car, and so, allowing for downtime, might make $10-15 per hour.
I can foresee potential problems... safety for the workers, public liability, risk of scamming gas money, tax questions... What do you think? Would you pay?

With apologies to Keats

O auto shape! fair prices! with brakes
Of marble interiors and mechanics overwrought,
With windshield wipers and the tire treads;
Thou, silent horn! dost tease us out of thought
As doth eternity: Cold Pumpernickel!
When old oil shall this make and model waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of a free tow
Than ours, a friend to fuel, to whom thou say'st,
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

the shouter is new. It takes a while to figure out what's kosher here.

Zengum, the cost of those extra services was built in to the higher cost of gasoline. Don't wanna pay a bum to do it.

the other thing is the convenience factor. I could just pull in and pull out. With a regular car mechanic place, you pretty much have to leave your car for a while, or wait.

Well, I was thinking that it would be at a station with regular (self-service) prices, and you would have the option of tipping the bum/driveway worker, or DIYing.
My next thought was ... would you trust people like that with your car, and thus your safety? :headshake

Shawnee: : applause :

yeah, Shawnee: you are awesome!

Thanks! :blush: One of those things that could have been better but I was in a hurry. Still fun, though. :)

Wa-Lah!
 

Laughing at a friend of mine, who said:

Some guy somewhere always does that for me. Maybe like, the Jiffy Lube Guy. Or some guy passing by when I'm trying to attempt it by myself, and I obviously am in a moment of distress. So, therefore heroes are needed. It happens. It does to me anyways. Perhaps go out and walk around your car, then attempt to open the hood, and find that oil stick a majigy thing. Look around, at all the neat stuff in there. Cry, because you realize you don't know what the fuck you are doing. And wa-lah. Some guy pops up and will ask if you are okay, and if you could please put that stick down now, so you don't hurt yourself. Then they just fix it. Not so hard. I don't know what all the fuss is all about.
It happens at gas stations alot, too. When I don't know how to get the cap of the damn tire and get that stupid thing with the air wherever the hell it's supposed to be. Some guy pops up, and does it for me. Or.. when I can't find which damn button to push to get the gas to go in my car, or whatever. Some guy pops up. Pushes the right button. Washes my windows. They are nice.

Don't think that strategy works for this old hag, unfortunately.

Cloud, checking tire pressure and fluid levels is different from actually servicing the vehicle. Get someone (that knows what they are doing), to show you how, and it's no more difficult than checking your gas gage.

still full serv only in New Joisey

And miracle creams from the Pond's Institute create younger skin. Without knowledge of simple stuff, then you invite others to scam you on expensive stuff.

Why check oil and tire pressure so often? Because they know you don't know anything; would rather take advantage of you. I watch this in repair shops and dealerships. Watch, for example, how they lie to women - probably to learn how much they can overcharge. I immediately learn which service shops want to be honest. You cannot do that if, by not even learning the simplest stuff, you have set yourself up to be a mark.

There is no reason to be checking oil and tire pressure on any properly working vehicle. But 'checking' this and finding other problems occurs when 'they' see a mark.

Let's see. How often do we change spark plugs? Never once I built my first electronic ignition. Now all cars (thanks to enviromental laws) have electronic ignitions. Never replace spark plugs in a functioning car.

How often is a tune up necessary? Also never for the same reasons.

How often is wheel alignment performed? Annually? Never on a properly designed car. But when one cannot even check tire pressure, then that $100 job is recommended annually. Profit is too high and labor too simple for another fast $100.

We also learned how to lock doors. Why? Because it is not smart to remain ignornant. Certain things such as making change from a $20 without assistance from a cash register is also required in a technical society.

Why disassemble a ten speed bike? Any properly designed bike needs no such disassesmbly. A few simple cable adjustments without removing anything. Cloud, start asking some damning questions of your information sources. Learn why another could quickly see through George Jr's lies about Saddam's WMDs. It comes from doing and then learning to smell a skunk.

Many if not most service attendants in full service gas stations (all gas stations in NJ and OR are full service) also cannot check tire pressure or oil. So you trust them to do it? He says he knows and that alone is sufficient for you to trust him?

Detecting low tire pressure become easy by just looking at the tire. Learning is by first finding and filling a low pressure tire. Experience then means low pressure becomes obvious by just looking. Knowledge that comes from experience and from doing. Knowledge that makes a scammer's job too difficult.

The problem is not just knowing how to do this stuff. Too many even ignore the Check Engine light. Car runs fine. Light must be 'burned in'. Also easy to believe when one becomes Paris Hilton; never even changed a light bulb. Doing the little things means not becoming a mark. Learning by making mistakes - essential.

"Properly working vehicle" is not something every layman can determine. If it seems to run fine, assuming no propblem can be very bad.

Again, I have to disagree. I poke around look & check stuff all the time - my roter was excessivly worn and needed to be replaced. Nothing in the operation of the vehicle told me this. Just my being nosey and inquisitive.

What if you drive contantly over speed bumps or hit potholes??? Both these things and many more can affect your alignment, and thust tire and brake wear. I am not a "car guy" or anything, but I know enough to be sensible. Not doing anything because you "think" things are ok is a bad idea, a very bad idea.

And only you tw, could bring WMD, Saddam, Bush, and dissembling a 10 speed bike in one paragraph while trying to be serious. Bravo! You never cease to amaze.

On this last part I wholeheartedly agree.

no, I don't want to be a mark, certainly, and I am very wary of car repair guys. and guys who come up to me offering to "help."

just to be clear here--is any one saying I DON'T need to check the air pressure in my tires to keep them properly inflated; or that I DON'T need to check my oil level more often than the every 3-6 months I get my oil changed?

One thing to keep in mind is that it's very hot and dusty here most of the year--those "extreme" driving conditions the car manual talks about. I think, for instance, that very hot weather can impact your tire's inflation.

Here's what Consumer Reports advises to keep your new car running to 200,000 miles:

oooh, it says to "check the constant velocity joint boots."

No fucking clue.

They are more commonly known as "CV joints" They connect the tire to the axle - somethin like that. The boots hold all the grease/lubicant in. I've never had mine checked, but FWIW I have had one replaced which turned into replacing both and more $$$.

CV Joint info

Maintenance while keeping your hands clean.
 

These "key tasks" are important. You can do a lot toward them without getting your hands dirty.

Tires:
Low tire pressure can cause uneven tire wear and thus shorten the life of the tires and waste money.
It can make the steering seem heavy, and cause the car to drift to one side or the other.
It can (allegedly) cause blowouts.
I can vouch for the first two myself.

You can spot a badly underinflated tire pretty easily. They bulge at the bottom. If one of your tires is a different shape to the others, check it or get it checked.

Oil:
Low oil can ruin your engine. This will be very very expensive. I can vouch for this. (I told you all that I used to be young and stupid!)

Almost all modern cars have a "low oil" warning light somewhere in the dash. This will glow when you first start the car for a couple of seconds, until the oil begins to circulate. Watch this gauge and get used to how long it takes to turn off. If this interval seems to have got longer, you could be low on oil. Check it or get it checked.

Listen to your car as you drive. Once you get used to it, you will notice any new sounds or changes in sounds. But don't go straight to a mechanic and imitate the sound (easy prey). Some guy you know could probably tell you what it is. I have no training as a mechanic but I can tell the different sounds from timing chains, wheel bearings, engine bearings (bad, bad sign) and loose exhaust manifolds.

You spend a lot of money on a car. Take care of it.

One thing I'll add to Zens good info above, DO NOT put your trust in and risk your engine... on a 25 cent lightbulb on your dashboard.

Then pay someone directly to do it instead of paying more for your gas. Just as you would if you didn't want to clean your own house or wipe your own.....

This is true, but unhelpfully incomplete.

A more likely and more pernicious situation is this: You can have a badly underinflated tire and not spot it at all, given the bulge at the bottom of many radial design tires.

Short answer: Get a tire pressure gauge, learn how to use it, and apply your newfound knowledge frequently. Appearance is a poor indicator of tire pressure.

Your many replies do not contradict what I posted. For example, take wheel alignment. If potholes, etc change alignment on a properly designed car, then bent parts must be replaced. Wheel alignment would only cure symptoms. You would, instead, align to bent parts? That dirty little secret is ignored by those who advocate wheel align every year. If potholes change wheel alignment on an engineer designed car, then bent parts must first be replaced. Of course, this means buying a patriotic vehicle (American or foreign manufacturer labels say nothing about patriotic).

My 1980 Accord did 107,000 miles on its original tires. It was never wheel aligned. Why did I learn this? I even began doing my own alignment after my GM product would eat tires and the repair shop left me doubtful. Eventually discovered why it ate tires every 40,000 miles (with help from some honest mechanics and what I then learned by owning a Honda). Alignment was not changing. How wheels attached to the vehicle was causing excessive tire wear. Only myth purveyors were, instead, blaming pot holes - a universal myth.

Defective designed cars did not bother to put mounting holes in the same place on every car. A 'cost controlled' designer solved that defect by, instead, installing adjusters. Cars designed by engineers now spend more money on better designs so that the hole is exact every time and so that the total vehicle cost is less. No adjuster means no variation; no movement due to potholes.

One need not be a car guy to learn facts. Those adjusters for camber and caster do not exist on a car manufactured by patriots. How do you know? Amazingly, even simple arithmetic ballpark identifies a patriotic vehicle. Horsepower divided by liters - an engine parameter - is often associated with vehicles that also don't need wheel alignment. The minimum number should be well known here by all.

Well this may be far too much Cloud. But facts remains, all that checking is necessary for defective vehicles. Properly designed vehicles require very little maintenance - and no repeated checking.

Tune up? Tune ups do not identify a defective rotor. However simple facts such as miles per gallon and engine knocking (noise) would tend to identify such problems. Also obvious would be fluid leaks where the car parks. There is no reason for any fluid leaking beneath any car.

Again, simple observations make all that checking irrelevant. Learning to perform the simplest of task - ie checking tire pressure - eventually means one only looks at the tire to know. Even a full service gas jockey typically could not tell.

Let's not forget another myth promoted by a lying company - Firestone - now called Bridgestone. Low tire pressure does not cause tire failure. Low tire pressure can aggravate a problem directly traceable to defectively designed tires. All those Explorer rollovers are directly traceable to a company that, instead, lied. And lied repeatedly while their defective design was killing people. Who did the exact same thing in the late 1970s (find referenced to Firestone 500). Low tire pressure did not cause tires to be missing one ply or to be glued defectively.

How many knew what caused Ford Explorer rollovers? How many knew that when Ford Motor finally discovered these Firestone (Bridgestone) lies, then Ford demanded Firestone withdrawal all ATX Wilderness tires. Firestone refused. So Ford - a more patriotic company - spent $2billion to replace Firestones 'defective by design' tires. Firestone did what any MBA dominated company would do.

To mask their lies, Firestone changed the brand names to Bridgestone. A point made so that you can decide to be patriotic: either avoid Bridgestone products or so hate humanity as to buy their products. They did in the 1990s what they also did to create Firestone paraplegics and quadriplegics in the late 1970s. Will doing repeated checks (also called inspection) avoid that which more often creates failures? Of course not. Any factory that has no quality also hase quality control inspectors. But then you might blame yourself for the failures rather than the MBA who intentionally created that failure.

These stories are not universally learned. These details are often found in later (back page) newspaper stories - the dirty little details with numbers that cause so many eyes to glaze over. Automotive maintenance is also about warnings for worst case conditions; assumes no one learns (from experience) how to see a low pressure tire.

One need only learn to look at tires - to identify in but a second the tire that needs air (or more likely has a nail because a properly inflated and designed tire remains properly inflated for years). One gains that experience by first taking simple numbers with a $3 pressure gauge. One learns from experience - which means the simplest of numbers and no glazed over eyes.

It's simple. Best time to learn is when any car is up on a lift. If in doubt, ask someone to point it out. However a CV boot is even easy to identify by looking under the car. This shaft goes from engine to each wheel. Where a joint exists, a big black rubber boot wraps around the shaft. Any rubber part that is broken or cracked should be replaced. It’s that simple. A CV boot failure can be especially expensive if the joint is washed clean of grease. Rust and wear would require a few $hundred to replace.

Now we add another reality. This failure was most common among unpatriotic cars such as GM who would cost control those boots. That boot should never fail in the life of a car. And the responsible mechanic who changes oil should inspect that boot every time.

You require an oil change every 5000 miles or 3 months if you use the car every day. A better measure would be number of times you start the car. Instead we use a simpler number. That means something that should never fail - radiator leak, low oil, low transmission fluid, brake fluid, etc - is also quickly identified by the lube jockey. But again, is he honest or does he constantly test women to learn which ones can be fleeced?

As CR notes, most failures should be obvious by fluid leaks where car is parked. Every and any fluid leak is a complete failure coming later. CV boot failure - either you must drive over something that cuts that boot open or the manufacturer has made a defective part. Yes, the CV boot is inspected so that a rare defect costs massively less money. But that is why you don't buy high failure products designed by bean counters and why you have an honest mechanic who inspects all those things while replacing the oil.

Let's see. I even bought a grease pump to lube those bearings far more often than required. What did I learn? Bearings and links that had to be greased often also failed often. No matter how religiously I did the maintenance, those bearings failed because they were designed by cost controllers. When did bearing failure stop? When car guys designed the car meaning none of that maintenance was required.

There are some simple tasks to perform or have performed routinely. For example, you must make sure the coolant is changed every two years. Symptoms of not doing that? Four years later the heater does not work so good anymore. You must schedule and have oil and filter changed. Easily inspect the air filter every year or longer, or have it done. More frequent if the ranch is dusty. And, of course, have anything reported by the check engine light fixed. Despite what some ill trained mechanics claim, every check engine light indication means a failure exists - without doubt.

Many of these tasks such as tire pressure becomes obvious - requires no tire gauge - once you learn what to look for by using a tire gauge. And yes, inspecting the spare tire is also important. Push it - pressure should be obvious.

When using brakes, does wheel stay straight and no noise heard? It must on every car. Do you calculate MPG after each fillup - a most powerful tool to find defects long before it becomes a failure? Simple math even performed in the head if you do it routinely. When driving down a highway, does the steering wheel stay straight even when striking multiple tar expansion joints between concrete? Any properly designed car stays perfectly straight. IOW no wheel alignment was going to fix that new 1996 Pontiac designed by bean counters - that also demanded a $100 wheel alignment every year. These things are learned by doing - sometimes making mistakes - and then asking damn embarrassing questions. One embarrassing question - why do GM cars fail so often that even paint pealed off a five year old car? That also was a bean counter generated defect.

If the 25 cent lightbulb is a problem, then a $0.10 LED should have been there. Reality - if the dashboard bulb failed, then question the manufacturer. And if the bulb has failed, well, that is why all bulbs light when car first starts.

Why not use an LED? Because that incandescent bulb does not / must not fail - and cost even less than 25 cents.

So why would oil be low? Did you ignore that oil spot where you park? Do you ignore the blue smoke and bad odor? With so many other reasons to see low oil, then we also have another indicator - an oil lamp. How many times does the car have to warn you of an impending failure?

Same applies to low tire pressure. One simply looks at the tire and at all other tires. Low tire pressure is obvious. And then if tires squeal when you round a turn, again, a defect exists. Look at the tires for low pressure.

Having said this, no solutions exist to a defective suspension on bean counter designed vehicles such as Jeeps. Those tires squeal even when turning into a parking spot at 3 MPH. No way around defectively designed vehicles. Low tire pressure should be obvious. Of course, one must learn to see it. But then we learn from experience - and ask damning questions.

Damming questions such as why do full service gas jockeys get paid so little? Insufficient knowledge even to check for low oil?

If you hit potholes or drive over speed bumps your alignment CAN BE affected.

Putting the gas cap on too loosely can cause the check engine light to come on. I suppose you could argue that putting a gas cap on incorrectly is a failure, but most people would probably disagree.

You just described the difference between 4WD and AWD, and the bean counter is the customer who doesn't want to pay for an expensive AWD system that allows the wheels to be powered at uneven rates for tight cornering on dry surfaces.

So a check engine light is on. The mechanic says, "Ignore the light. It means nothing." Of course it means something. In that case, it meant the gas cap is loose or even missing.

Did that once. Forget to put that gas cap on after waiting fruitlessly for the gas attendant to come out (full service State). Heard the cap fall to the road. I was walking that highway when a State Trooper stopped me. He then found it. Troopers have better flashlights and better eyes. And a missing gas cap may also create other (and worse) failures. A missing gas cap is bad for multiple reasons.

Meanwhile, when the mechanic says the check engine light mean nothing, then find a mechanic with basic technical knowledge. Another lesson that others may learn from experience. Not just that the failure happened - but also why.

And the supporting facts that say why are what? Posts without such facts have the intellectual value of George Jr. How does that pothole affect alignment on a properly designed car (facts that were obviously required in classicman's blanket declaration)? You would declare a fact, in obvious contradiction, without a single 'why'? Only extremists do that. Why does that pothole affect alignment when facts, with reasons why, were posted to the contrary? Are we to believe classicman only because he says so? Where are these supporting facts?

Here are five for you Tom - There are a few THOUSAND MORE.
If you care to, look them up yourself.

Don't Let Alignment Problems Get Your Truck Down

DRIVER ENERGY EFFICIENCY TIPS

Automotive Vehicle Safety

Tire Care and Maintenance

Information Bulletin - Spring Driving

You missed the point here. The point was if a driver didn't notice the light bulb or LED was NOT operational, had burned out/broken.... for whatever reason. There would be no notification of a problem that needs to be addressed.

uh. wow.

AAA is totally worth it.

:corn:I can't imagine two other people who could argue so much over automobile maintenance. ;)

Not so, Shawnee. Men have been debating maintenance of motor vehicles, and before that draught animals/wagons, since forever.
What did you think the guys were talking about in the garage all Saturday afternoon, girls?

I'm from the, there's no such thing as too much maintenance, school.

I was simply offering my help to cloud and got lambasted for it - since the first post I have been like WTF did I do?

Jersey only has "Full Service" stations... maybe they don't trust us with gas, i don't know but our definition of full service means a guy comes out and pumps your gas. thats it. the most i've ever seen them do is clean your windshield.

Ah, yes. I stand corrected!

Just messin' with you, classic.

I think tw has a little crush on you....

Requoted from classicman’s citation: If true, then everyone spends $100 for wheel alignment during every oil change – every 3 months? Classicman’s proof is that? Nonsense. Who would be so stupid or foolish to waste money? One knows frequent $100 checks are required because some English major says so? Classicman recommends frequent alignments using same logic that proved Saddam had WMDs. He knows only because others say so.

I asked classicman for his ‘whys’. Now obvious is why classicman promotes this myth. Camber and caster may not ‘hold’? Hold? What ‘unholds’ when no adjuster exists to move? Classicman knows only because others say so rather than asking a damn simple question. Where is that missing adjuster?

Every 7500 kilometers, align a non-existent adjuster to correct movement that cannot exist? Or align to bent parts? How foolish.

Classicman’s citation says why frequent $100 wheel alignment checks are wanton. How curious. tw said same. And if alignment is off, then defective parts are replaced. Do we align to bent or worn parts as classicman would recommend? Of course not. 107,000 miles on the original tires – and not one alignment. A 1980 car designed by 'car guys' did what is standard today on any properly designed vehicle.

Classicman’s post – the ‘whys’ - explains how he knows frequent $100 checks are necessary. Those 1950 ‘high failure’ vehicles that classicman has assumed no longer exist.

Cloud – ignore hyped fear from those who know only from myths. Also provides were symptoms that warn of problems without expensive $100 checking. Ie. fluid leaks, MPG numbers on every new tank of gas, moving car in a parking lot, Check Engine light, smoke, and routine inspection performed during each oil change. Expensive service plans, warranties, and $100 alignment checks every three months is not necessary with properly designed cars. A $100 alignment every 5000 kilometers? Is he that so naïve as to believe such people? This is why his reasons (supporting facts) were demanded. He does not know. He only reiterate what he reads. Another example of why ‘dirt under the fingernails’ is found where others learn.

Shawnee - some people just know without first learning facts. They should be challenged aggressively as any good persons would - bluntly. This is not a debate about cars. There is no debate where people have learned simple technology. Cars don't require all that complex knowledge and frequent maintenance. Exposed are thos who know only because others say so. Thousands of web citations somehow is proof? The same logic also proved Saddam's WMDs. A minimally standard car requires so little maintenance. That is not even debateable. Debated is how some just believe these myths - forget to first learn facts - believe everything read on the web - don't ask damning, blunt, and politically incorrect questions.

So where is that adjuster that needs $100 service every three months. Classicman cannot say. In the same place that George Jr put Saddam's WMDs.

You got lambasted for posting without first learning. Then got lambasted again for knowning only because a thousand other posts somehow become factual proof. The lesson from Saddam's WMDs? Does not matter how many say so. Only facts and numbers are relevant; and experience that puts facts and numbers into perspective. You got lambasted for posting myths because you did not first learn the facts and then knew using the same reasoning that proved Saddam had WMDs.

Eliminate those myths and Cloud need not worry about a car - if the car is properly designed.

tw, pardon me, but you are simply wrong. You insinuate and infer things from my posts that are not there.

Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanza or most likely Bah Humbug - whatever it is you celebrate,Tom I hope you have a nice one.

and how does a layman determine if his or her car is "properly designed?" What if you simply have to deal with the car you own, design flaws and all?

Find someone with a car that has 300,000 miles on it, jump in your time machine, and go back and buy that car before they do.

Which reminds me, does anyone know how to check the oil on a time machine? And my temporomechanic says the Horologizing camber guides need aligning ... is he trying to con me? And I think the flux capacitor is on the blink, it makes a funny noise when I go around centuries...

So I pick our car up from the corner mechanic after my wife left it there for an oil change. I pay for the work and they say the keys are in the ignition. The car is parked in the far corner of the lot where the attendant can't see it, right next to the street and sidewalk. As I get closer, I realize not only is the door unlocked with the keys in the ignition, but the window is rolled down too. Now I know where to go when I need a new (used) car for free. WTF?

I imagine they would be liable for it if it were stolen, but damn.

Simple, buy a Honda. :bolt:

I've always felt that it's silly to buy a brand new car. It depreciates the second you drive it off the lot, for one thing. Better to get one at about 30,000 miles. Most new car "bugs" will have already been discovered, hopefully. For some, this isn't an issue, many have the dollars to deal with small repairs, but if you're counting on your car to not nickel and dime you to death, that's just my two cents. [/irrelevant opinion] :rolleyes:

Consumer Reports makes it obvious. For example, their April issue (sometimes the most stolen issue) includes best recommended models. It also lists used cars by model and year - the best recommended AND the worst 'stay away from' models.

If the car is properly designed, then it has great value per buck, does not routinely fail, and ends up highly praised in sources that don't accept advertising. Any car that requires wheel alignment, fuel additives, or tune ups is akin to a break down on the highway.

If the source does have advertising and if the review is not overwhelming, then it is probably a car made by an automaker that should be bankrupt. For example, one Honda Accord review was critical of the interior color scheme. That is a raving positive review masked so as to not harm the advertising income. However one Consumer Report article was politically incorrect honest - the best type of people. Its title was "Oldsmobile Achieva is an Underachiever". Like all Oldsmobiles, it was one of the worst vehicles in America then.

In a rare bout of honesty, an LA Times auto reporter honestly described problems with GM products. Therefore GM executed a campaign of revenge to bankrupt the LA Times. The Wall Street Journal noted how WSJ had an investment fund just for such events because GM had also tried to do same to them. Note how anti-American all GM is. They are even spending massively on George Jr to pervert EPA standards - to even get the EPA to fight for inferior GM products that state governments want banned. Note an example of high failure vehicles designed by accountants and protected by people who so hate humanity as to buy their products. They will spend massively on politics and public propaganda rather than use technology.

The 70 HP per liter engine - developed in GM in 1972, ready for production in 1975, and still not available standard in all GM products.

That simple number is horsepower per liter. This silly little arithmetic is a massive precursor to better or worse vehicles. For fuel injection, it must do at least 70 HP per liter. Your 2.2 liter engine must produce as many or more horsepower than mid 1970s American 350 cubic inch (big block) V8 engines.

If turbo charged, 85. Supercharged - 100. For example, the GM supercharged vehicles (ie Pontiacs 'performance with attitude' or Chevy's Chevelle SS) are only 63 horsepower per liter. Their supercharged engines do not even do what is found in a Toyota Tercel. How more obvious is that GM product line problem. Is it properly designed - or does the company president not even drive.

Yes, that obvious. When Roger Smith of GM drove a first Saturn off the assembly line, car was modified so that Smith could not press the accelerator. Roger Smith, chairman of GM, could not drive. A problem often found where cars are not properly designed. A problem often not learned due to hype and myth (same sources that said Saddam had WMDs) rather than from learning facts.

Am I insulting here - or do I become blunt honest because I constantly go after the irrefutable fact. You will not get such knowledge from some others (ie classicman) when fundamental facts are ignored - ie numbers such as HP/liter.

Among the higher price vehicles are fuel injection numbers routinely in the 85 range. IOW these better cars have turbo charged performance without the turbo charger. Again, these numbers are damning. Again, these are the manufacturers who will have the better cars 10 and 20 years from now. The superior technology first appears in the luxury models. For example, why was the 1970 Porshe a high performance car? Its engine was 70 Hp/liter.

Automakers with inferior products would not put both horsepower and liter numbers on the stickers. You must be kept dumb and ignorant. They fear you might learn. Pickup trucks and SUVs are easily optimized for profit because so many customers are more enthralled with their penis then with the product. Manufacturers make them too high and install noisy, low performance (1968 technology) engines. Noted earlier are Jeeps designed so badly as to squeal tires even when turning into a parking slot. That 'more engine noise' enthralls those who do not think using their head. That 'more noise' makes the naive 'feel' it must be high performance.

How to identify a 'properly designed' and higher performance vehicle? It makes less noise. Why would you know the 5.0 Liter Mustang was one of the lowest performance (and high failure rate) vehicles? It made more noise. Why is it obvious that SUVs and pickups are so crappy? Just listen as it accelerates or climbs a hill.

Saturn is one of those noisy vehicles. But then Saturn was constantly fighting for and eventually surrendered their independence from GM. Ironically I recently found a Saturn that made so little noise. It is actually a Saab with a Saturn nameplate. Learned because I noticed that Saturn was so quiet – and then asked questions. Most everyone in the word makes vehicles superior to GM - even those auto companies bought by GM.

View Consumer Reports April issues for a list entitled "Used Cars The best & worst available". Notice which models and manufacturers end up on the "Vehicles to avoid" list year after year. If your list is honest, then Pontiac will appear often in a high failure category. But then that was so obvious on that less than 100 miles 1996 Pontiac that required steering wheel adjustments every 3 or less tar (expansion) strips on a concrete highway. Even those tar strips caused the inferior vehicle to wander.

Another simple method. Touch the accelerator. Car should accelerate gently and hardly at all. But some manufacturers have defective (low performance) engines. Give it a little gas; it won't go. Give it much more gas and it suddenly accelerates aggressively. This masks the defective engine and makes the naive 'feel' it is a high performance vehicle. In bumper to bumper traffic, see them constantly accelerating and braking. It will either accelerate too much or not accelerate at all to mask a defective engine.

The naive will stomp on an accelerator to see how good the car is. The informed will learn using almost no accelerator change. Superior cars with higher performance engines slowly and smoothly respond to every little accelerator change. Notice the difference between one who uses his penis verses the later who thinks with a brain.

Consumer Reports April 2007 issue includes a graph (in "Reliability trends") for problems per 100 vehicles verses years of vehicle. Lines represent eight automakers. Note which products have so many fewer problems - despite propaganda sometimes and recently hyped in the local news. GM cars, in particular, are so bad that any little improvement becomes a front page story.

The superior car routinely exceeds EPA highway mileage even in suburban driving. Just another reason why one records and calculates miles, gallons of gas, and MPG. MPG is a massive indicator of superior products AND can report an impending problem before that problem creates failure. Of course a bad driver or gas can also cause lower mileage. However cars designed by accountants are optimized for high mileage during the EPA test; not for higher mileage during normal driving.

Just a few ways to avoid problems before failure can happen. Just more reasons why maintenance is no longer a major consideration when owning a car. There are now so few things an owner/driver must do to maintain a car. And yes, as demonstrated in other posts, even the gasoline brand can also be important.

How to not constantly replace windshield wipers? Avoid the hype discount brands such as Trico. IOW if your automobile is from a responsible manufacturer, then wiper blades from the dealer may last four times longer. Blades will cost slightly more - which means significant monetary savings. Like gasoline, the lower price does not mean it is cheaper. More concepts learned by asking embarrassing and blunt questions - and by getting big eyes every time numbers are presented.

How often should you replace spark plugs? Never if a car is properly designed. Yes, the automaker may recommend spark plug changes every 50,000 or 100,000 miles. But then superior manufacturers want no cars to every fail. GM once provided numbers base upon when 50% or 90% of their products failed. Believe me. I learned by doing - and then asking embarrassing questions. I left a lot of blood inside automobiles - and learned why.

Is that enough ways to discover what is "properly designed"?

You don't have a problem until it materializes you inside the earth or somewhere in deep space. The earth will only be there at the right time which is why a flux capacitor always has the right space.

I agree, TW, I would never, ever buy a car without it being recommended by Consumer Reports.

Hence, my 2001 Honda Civic.

:D

I very much appreciate all who have taken the time to respond here, even with the contentiousness. (Hey, it's the Cellar, what do we expect?)

Accidents must diminish the longevity of a vehicle, though, no? Mine had an accident several years back, and was fixed. Fixed well, but I keep thinking there must be some lingering weakness in the frame after that.

I've been thinking about the longevity issue, too. So, are people saying that all of a sudden, cars' reliability and longevity are vastly increased? After what year?

I wonder if the car-buying public has really twigged to this, or cares. That would give most people time enough to pay off their car, and save cash for the next one. I'm sure the car-finance people are not bruting this about.

Of course, most people are too caught up in "look at my shiny new car" syndrome to pay attention.

Does a 2001 civic have a "frame"? I thought that was a unibody design, but I'm too lazy to check.


Edit:
Curiousity got to me - yeah it has a frame.

beats the hell out of me. All I know is that the rear left was damaged, and the underbody or axle or something was damaged.

Yeah, I know, I'm dumb about cars. Said so, didn't I?

hey, I see the Car Talk guys have local mechanics' reviews on their site. Cool!

http://www.cartalk.com/menus/info.html