Saudi: Why we punished rape victim
 

Saudi: Why we punished rape victim

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...tim/index.html

This is where breeching the separation of church and state leads.

I think that living under Shar'ia law in a Wahabi state might have something to do with it too. Followers of this branch of Sunni Islam believe that the Koran lays down exactly how a Muslim should live in every aspect of life. The state is religion and the religion is state. The only law is the law laid down by Mohammed, therefore the American style separation of Church and State is impossible.

Unless you are expecting the States to start following Shar'ia law any time soon I don't think you need to worry about it coming to this.

Shhhh! RK, they're our allies, remember?
They're helping us fight the baddies.
[/irony]

Remember where 85% of the S-11 hijackers came from?

as a woman, this kind of shit makes my blood boil. They're the same people who think it's perfectly fine to murder your own daughter for going on a date.

This incident served to arouse a discussion today, and an interesting one at that. Rape is a singularly grating crime. Because of our attitudes toward sex, forcing another into sexual intercourse, or any other molestation, is probably the most humiliating and degrading act conceivable. I don't think there is anyone on this forum that argues that point.

SO, that being said, and it is right and good that a rapist be punished (as the rapists in this case reportedly were), the reason this woman is being punished is somewhat unconnected to her rape. She was punished for being in a car with an unrelated male (who was also raped). So the question I raise is, does her victimization absolve her responsibility for her crime?

My gut reaction, of course, is yes. We always tell underage women (or men) that they wont be prosecuted for things like underage drinking or drug use when reporting a rape. This is in interest of fair reporting on the victim's part. But ignoring for the moment that we completely disagree with the laws against women's rights, is it right to absolve this victim from her crime because she was wronged some other way?

Because of the ridiculousness of the saudi religious laws, I'll put forth an analogy that I used earlier today. A woman burgles a house, and in the process is discovered by the owner and he decides to rape her, maybe to "teach her a lesson." When the cops arrive and find the woman's been raped, is she given immunity based on the circumstances her rape?

And if she IS given immunity, at what point DO we begin to prosecute her crimes? Does she have to murder someone? Is there ever a circumstance when a rape victim is prosecuted?

Just something I've been thinking about.

a thoughtful post, but I really don't think you can compare the Saudi's actions with any scenario involving Western law. She was in a car with an unrelated male. Against their laws, fine. the BIG stink was when she was further punished for talking to the media about it, rather publicly humiliating the Saudis.

But 200 lashes? Not to mention 6 months in jail? Come on. Can people even survive 200 lashes? And then they disbarred her lawyer when she had the effontry to appeal, leaving her without representation.

One of the things that gets me so mad is that it's always the woman's fault because the men can't control themselves. The sight of a woman's hair or ankle naturally incites men to unreasoning beasts, therefore it's not their fault.

Well, GROW UP, I say!

The question was posed about western law as well as well as saudi (after a fashion). They give lashes, we give years in jail. In either circumstance, and accepting for the sake of argument that there is nothing questionable about their laws (or ours), is it ok to absolve someone of their crimes for being victimized? I'm not sure it is, after a point. If this woman's crime was severe enough (say murder) would that still be ignored if she were brutally raped?

We had a case in the last few years where a Norfolk farmer who had been burgled several times shot a fleeing burglar in the back (still on his property). The teenager died and the farmer was initially charged with murder and sent to prison. The sentence was reduced to manslaughter and he served three years of a five year sentence.

So in that case the more heinous crime was punished. Hard to say if the thief would also have been, but even if he had survived I believe it unlikely his sentence would have been the same.

Therefore, even though I don't know of any case where the criminal was raped I would assume it would outweigh the crime of theft.

Except that. Except, that... It is unlikely ever to come to prosecution, statistically. And even less likely to end in a conviction, statistically. And with the significant drawback of a criminal in the dock.... well. Many juries feel the weight of the burden of proof on them for a "normal" rape case. My belief is that in this country at least, they wouldn't believe a word the victim said. And forget evidence - it is always disputed in a rape case anyway.

Unless a bloke beats the shit out of the woman, it's very hard to prove he's guilty of raping her...if you take the evidence into account.

I know this from my own experience as head juror in a rape case.

While it seemed on the surface of it that the woman was raped, there was no evidence to suggest it, and even she could give no evidence because her only answer when questioned was, "I don't remember".

In the end, the jury decided that the only thing we could convict anyone for was being stupid, and unfortunately, that's not a crime.

I've seen discussion on this on several boards. Many people are missing a very important part of this scenario. I don't see it discussed here. The girl was abducted, and raped. She was taken into a car against her will. Then she was punished for being in the car?!?

The Saudi law seems to be saying that it doesn't matter if a woman gets into a car with a strange man of her own accord or against her will. She's screwed either way.

That's pretty much it. It's been discussed on this board before which might be why there are less comments in this particular thread.

That's according to the telegraph, and BBC reports the same. She was not forced into the car, that's why I pose the question. She was commiting a crime (unjust crime, but that's not important to my question) in no connection to the rapes when she was assaulted.

I suppose the reason I'm stressing this is that I think it is an important question that remains largely unaddressed (at least in US courts). I have no problem with allowing for absolution of things like underage drinking, maybe because I think it's a stupid crime to punish in the first place.

But here's the big question (rephrased again): We find it perfectly acceptable to shoot someone for, say, breaking into our house. In some cases, even in the burglar is in broad daylight and is shown to have no weapon and therefore poses you no threat, you can shoot him simply for being on your property. This cannot be defended as self preservation, because you KNOW the person isn't a threat. So we take that burglar that was shot and give him his legal punishment. What if you raped him instead? Would his crime be absolved and yours be punished?

I guess what it boils down to is; is it ok to absolve rape victims based on a "time served" kind of thing? They've already suffered enough, we can't punish them on top of all that?

I still haven't figured it out.

I really don't see why you are stressing. Separate crimes, separate criminal prosecutions. Motive and intent are taken into account. Our legal system is perfectly capable of handling this.

Are you serious?
You think because the sun is shining and you can't see a weapon in their hand, the person who just broke into your home is no threat to you??? Really??? Seriously???

huh. one of my favorite erotic stories features exactly that scenario.

But that is fantasy, man! I cannot imagine any jury buying into rape as a defense-of-the-home act.

The thing about this story that gets me is that I don't see that the US is not that different.
A woman gets raped here and the prosecution is allowed to try her past and "character" (bullshit word and connotation) as if they have ANY bearing on the incident being discussed.
They do NOT.
By doing so she is being, defacto, tried. Just as several high-profile cases have shown us, not only in the courts but publicly from the prosecution's immoral tactic.
It is a puritan/protestant legacy and nothing more.

That's a good point, but isn't it generally the defence simply trying to suggest that their client wasn't guilty at all because the woman/man wasn't really raped.

I think every case is different and it's really hard to say from the outside what's right or wrong unless you sit through every day of the trial, and even then it can be pretty tough. When I was selected for the jury in the trial I mentioned earlier, I almost asked to be excused because I didn't know if I could be objective and open minded. Believe it or not, in the end, I think it really helped me deal with my own situation and to rationalize my own thoughts on the matter.

Also, even though someone has been accused of rape, they're still innocent until proven guilty. Is that not the case? Of course, this only applies to western courts in general. Other countries have different ways of doing things as we all know.

Please keep in mind that I have a personal experience in this area, so I am trying to be as fair as possible to both sides.

I see your point, but innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with her character any more than her character has anything to do with whether she was raped or not, ever, no matter what her character was.
But, you know this Ali.

Well, from my own perspective, I know that some of the choices I made on the night it happened to me contributed to it happening. Should the man have been punished for my stupid choices? Or only his stupid choices, and if I'd not made those stupid choices, it might never have happened. *shrugs* I guess I'll never know what would have happened because I never called the cops and the reason I didn't was because at the time I knew I'd made bad choices and it'd be hard for anyone to believe I hadn't 'asked for it'.

SO pissed off... wrong a long reply and-power-surge.:mad2:
I completely disagree with you Ali, sorry to, but I do.
When I was dating I was having consensual sex with a girl, who had issues I later found out, and she said stop... so I stopped.
Had I continued it would have been rape, just rape and only rape; my fault, just my fault and ONLY my fault.
Nothing she can do, say, "imply" etc, matters after "NO", anything after that is HIS DECISION ALONE and RAPE.
No is ALWAYS NO.

Not to mention that saying it was even partially a victim's fault because of their actions implies that men are animals and can't control ourselves.

The US is not all that different? I disagree. It's illegal in Saudi Arabia for a woman even to get in a car with a guy not her husband and brother. It's illegal for a woman to vote, own property, choose her own job.

We've come a long way in this country in the last 100 years, even if we still need to go farther, such as in the treatment of rape victims. Saudi Arabia is still in the fifteenth century.

No comparison.

My gosh, Ali. Thats terrible. You have a great attitude for one who has gone thru something like that.

So you are saying, Cloud, that a woman raped in the US is not de-facto tried by the courts and public, really? Wow.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I agree that more progess is needed in this area. I'm saying that there a huge difference between the position of women in this country and the laws that affect them, and that of Saudi Arabia.

I don't agree, I just think they are more overt and honest about it.
You must not spend much time reading the news about court cases (not just rape but battery and other crimes against women), listening to popular music, and seeing advertising in any form. Cave much?

When Saudi Arabian women are allowed to vote, own property, and live on their own without a man, we'll compare notes.

Different tactics, same outcome, objectification is objectification in my view.
We disagree on that point, I see.
If someone is an object in a larger, prettier, cage it is ok with you... no sweat.

Saudi women are in cages. American women encounter fenced-off areas. It is a difference in kind, not just in scale.

That's not to say that the fences shouldn't continue to be removed.

of course there's more improvement needed here. But as a woman who has lived almost all her life in this country, I'm soooo grateful I was born here, where I'm not in danger of being stoned to death by my neighbors, or drowned by my father if I wanted to get in a car and drive to the store.

I agree there is a difference in degrees... however being tried overtly and being defacto tried for rape, the topic of this discussion, is the same to me.

. . .

Well, we all have choices. I still have my moments. I can't stand rape jokes or people who make light of it. I've had some issues even on this board about it, but I've tried to find a way of leaving it all in the past as much as I could. Yes it still affects the way I react sometimes, but so do all the other events in my past.

Everyone has a story but mostly we never get to know. Maybe if more people were willing to share, there'd be better understanding.

Well, in an ideal world that would always be the case. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to. Imagine how dull life would be if we all behaved exactly as people expected us to.

With that in mind, no one expects to be raped, but it does happen. It's always happened, and it always will happen. I don't know what the solution is, but it's never black and white in any of these situations. It's just a shame that the law forces us to make it that way. That's my opinion.

I don't believe most men are like that. I don't even believe some men are like that. There are a small percentage who are though. I wish I'd known what I was getting myself into. If I had, I would have made different choices. That's all I meant.

There is no comparison between females rights in the United States and in Saudi Arabia. Even though I have heard major progress with gay and woman rights in Saudi Arabia, mostly just "law breakers" are ignored, I wouldn't say the flaws in the United States are even close to these countries.

I would like to see protests in the United States against the support of Saudi Arabia because without it, there could very well be a change with these types of issues. I am not certain about this and don't have any proof, but I believe I heard that this brutal regime is unpopular and if it was taken over, there would be more woman and gay rights but unfortunately the United States is keeping them in power in fear of losing influence in this oil-rich country.

But what if her character clearly proved her to be a habitual liar? Other character flaws are obviously different, but surely one's historical honesty (both the man's and the woman's) has relevance if there is no evidence other than he-said/she-said? It's not a guarantee, of course--a pathological liar could still be a legitimate rape victim--but sometimes it's all the courts have to go on.

For information, Amnesty International's pages on Saudi Arabia, including one on women: http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/report.html

It's good to be the king.

yeah. Notice he's not blowing himself up to get access to 40 heavenly virgins.

Well, he would actually favor US Imperialism because it keeps him in power.

Interesting discussion - thanks.

Here is an article, from the victim's point of view:

Exclusive: Saudi Rape Victim Tells Her Story

Victim to Receive Whipping and Jail for Being in Nonrelative's Car When Attacked
By LARA SETRAKIAN
Nov. 21, 2007 —


Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Justice is defending a sentence of 200 lashes for the victim of a gang rape, punished because she was in the car of a male who wasn't a relative when the two were attacked.

In exclusive testimony obtained by ABC News, the young woman told her story of what happened and how she was treated in the months that followed.

"Everyone looks at me as if I'm wrong. I couldn't even continue my studies. I wanted to die. I tried to commit suicide twice," she said of her experience just after the attack.

The woman, known anonymously in the Saudi press as "Qatif Girl" for the eastern province town where the crime took place, was originally sentenced to 90 lashes for being in a state of "khalwa" -- retreat with a male who's not a relative.

But the General Court of Qatif increased the punishment to 200 lashes and six months in jail after she took her case to the press. Authorities deemed it an "attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media," according to Saudi Arabia's English-language newspaper Arab News.

The seven attackers were convicted of rape with sentences that ranged from two to nine years in prison, according to Arab News.

In a December 2006 interview in Khobar, Saudi Arabia the woman gave a full account of her testimony to Human Rights Watch, describing the incident as she did before the court. She was meeting a male acquaintance, a former boyfriend, when the attack took place.


Ordeal Began With a Photo
"I [was] 19 years old. I had a relationship with someone on the phone. We were both 16. I had never seen him before. I just knew his voice. He started to threaten me, and I got afraid. He threatened to tell my family about the relationship. Because of the threats and fear, I agreed to give him a photo of myself," she recounted.

"A few months [later], I asked him for the photo back but he refused. I had gotten married to another man. He said, 'I'll give you the photo on the condition that you come out with me in my car.' I told him we could meet at a souk [market[ near my neighborhood city plaza in Qatif.

"He started to drive me home. &We were 15 minutes from my house. I told him that I was afraid and that he should speed up. We were about to turn the corner to my house when they [another car] stopped right in front of our car. Two people got out of their car and stood on either side of our car. They man on my side had a knife. They tried to open our door. I told the individual with me not to open the door, but he did. He let them come in. I screamed.

"One of the men brought a knife to my throat. They told me not to speak. They pushed us to the back of the car and started driving. We drove a lot, but I didn't see anything since my head was forced down."

"They took us to an area & with lots of palm trees. No one was there. If you kill someone there, no one would know about it. They took out the man with me, and I stayed in the car. I was so afraid. They forced me out of the car. They pushed me really hard ... took me to a dark place. Then two men came in. They said, 'What are you going to do? Take off your abaya.' They forced my clothes off. The first man with the knife raped me. I was destroyed. If I tried to escape, I don't even know where I would go. I tried to force them off but I couldn't. [Another] man & came in and did the same thing to me. I didn't even feel anything after that.

"I spent two hours begging them to take me home. I told them that it was late and that my family would be asking about me. Then I saw a third man come into the room. There was a lot of violence. After the third man came in, a fourth came. He slapped me and tried to choke me.

"The fifth and sixth ones were the most abusive. After the seventh one, I couldn't feel my body anymore. I didn't know what to do. Then a very fat man came on top of me and I could no longer breathe.

"Then all seven came back and raped me again. Then they took me home. & When I got out of the car, I couldn't even walk. I rang the doorbell and my mother opened the door. She said you look tired.' I didn't eat for one week after that, just water. I didn't tell anyone. I went to the hospital the next day.

"The criminals started talking about it [the rape] in my neighborhood. They thought my husband would divorce me. They wanted to ruin my reputation. Slowly my husband started to know what had happened. Four months later, we started a case. My family heard about the case. My brother hit me and tried to kill me."


Lawyer Punished Too
Along with the young woman's sentence, the General Court of Qatif confiscated the license of her attorney, Abdul Rahman Al-Lahem, a lawyer known for taking on controversial cases that push back against Saudi Arabia's strictly interpreted system of sharia, or Islamic law.

"Asking me to appear in front of a disciplinary committee at the Ministry of Justice & is a punishment for taking human rights cases against some institutions," Al-Lahem told Arab News.

Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Justice said in this week's statement that Al-Lahem's "faulty behaviors & contradict the ethics of his profession and violate the provisions of practicing law and its executive code."

New York-based Human Rights Watch researcher Christoph Wilcke, who studies the Saudi legal system, said the woman would need a pardon from King Abdullah himself or from the provincial governor to be spared the lashings and jail time. The punishment will also be reviewed by the Supreme Judiciary Council, which will scrutinize the ruling, according to the Ministry of Justice.



http://abcnews.go.com/International/...3899920&page=1