Is tasering torture?
 

When I think about this question... it centers the debate exactly where I like it to be centered.

Nobody has ever died from waterboarding. It leaves no physical scars and it's not physically painful.

People die from tasering. two days ago it happened again. It's extremely painful and often leaves physical evidence if not scarring.

How is it that we are having a debate about torture and yet tasers are in such common use that we see it done on the news almost daily?

I think the difference is that a taser should be used on an attacker when there is an immediate threat of harm to someone who is not being violent, as an alternative to deadly force or harm from the attacker. My perception is that torturing is done to someone who is already under control, and not really a threat to anyone, because they are restrained, or whatnot. The problem is that tasers are being misused as a substitute for negotiation, restraint, etc. When a tasers is used on a restrained person, just to get obedience, or as punishment, then it is torture.

Well, tasering instead of shooting someone is definitely preferable.

As with any weapon, the definition between defense and torture depends on when you stop. If you continue to taser someone when they no longer present a threat, it's torture, the same as if you continue to beat someone with a baton after they no longer present a threat.

Or foreplay. :D

Oh Merc, you're wrong 'un mate :P

Is tasering torture? I'd have to go with what rich said. A taser is meant to be a method of self defence just as much as a weapon, in fact, it would be true to say that any time a cop even thinks about putting his hand on his gun (or any other weapon) it should be in the interest of self defence or the defence of people or property.

There's a huge difference between protecting and preserving to deliberately setting out to cause pain and suffering for ulterior purposes.

The question isn't "is tasering torture?", it's "can you torture with a taser?" The answer is obviously yes. Most of the times that tasering enters the news, it's because that actually happened- someone was tasered when they weren't an immediate threat, to punish them or to satisfy a power trip.

Water boarding, on the other hand, inherently can't be used on someone who isn't already under control.

And the terrorists are OUTTA CONTROL!!

I'm not so big on the "it's ok to shoot somebody over your stuff" mentality....

You are ok with someone coming to your house and stealing your car?

I don't think I'd shoot them over it.

I might tase them, though.

That's a false dichotomy.

Since I bought a new one on Friday I would definately shoot thier ass.

Well over here the cops promise to protect people and property.

If some dick is deliberately destroying an object with malicious intent I think they should tazer the bugger if he doesn't stop. Surely it'd be better than shooting him (or her).

They say that here, also. It's bullshit both here and there.
Unless the have a cop on every other front porch, how on earth can they protect everybody and their property?

Right, which is why I don't have a problem with tasers. I would even get one if I still lived in a 'dangerous' area. Guns are too lethal to be reasonable. On the one hand is your car (which you could and should insure, anyway) and another is someone's LIFE. If someone tries to beak into your home, tase the crap out of them. It just seems shooting is a little excessive punishment for the crime.

I wasn't even trying to suggest that cops anywhere can be expected to protect everyone and everything. Just that it's part of their job description, and it was in response to Spexx making a comment about not shooting people over 'stuff'.

I don't think people should be shot over stuff either, but I'd be fairly amenable to a good tazering if some shithead tried to steal my car.

i think people should be shot if they invade your home and attempt to steal your sense of security. Or stabbed, or bludgeoned with a bat, or tazered if it's all you have to hand.....

Hell, one time I came home early and went up stairs to find jinx hiding behind the bedroom entry brandishing a slipper......good thing she recognized me, i could have sustained a very serious red patch of skin if she had struck me with it. hey...it had a hard rubber sole!

I'd go for glen20 in the eyes, then a kick to the groin, followed by a knee to the chin and then I'd kick them in the guts while they're on the floor. I'd probably keep doing that till they started bleeding out of their arse.

At least, that's what I tell myself in my mind. It might go somewhat differently, but at least I've got a plan. ;)

That was foreplay you fool. Down on your knees, Dogboy!
:whip:

Home invasions are on the rise. People are brutalized or even murdered for some thug to get some cash. If you break into my home expect to be shot by me or my wife. If I confront you stealing one of my cars and you do not run away expect to be shot.

Noted. *makes notation in "people to kill before robbing" book*

The police have no legal obligation to protect persons or property.

Deshaney v. Winnebago County Dept of Social Services (U.S. Supreme Court)

Pinder v. Johnson (4th Circuit Court of Appeals)

.. a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen...

-- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)
(I tried to find a link to the full case citation for Warren, but haven't been able to locate one ... ditto for Balestreri v. Pacifica Police)

~~~~~

Back to Tasers ...

I've seen a lot of people post tasering. I wasn't at work the night the guy got tasered in the lobby, though.

In the continuum of things that police may do to attempt to control someone's behavior, tasers seem to be about the best. It's more effective than pepper spray, which carries a warning that it's not effective on psychiatric patients, and it's more human than a full strength kick in the nuts.

I've said before that the key ingredient for fatalities seems to be cocaine use. Every cop that's carrying a taser has had it used on him/her, and if they were truly that lethal, there'd be cops dropping like flies all over the country.

Cops on the gold coast tasered a melbourne cup reveler this arvy. He was on the ground but making it almost impossible for him to be restrained and he kept mouthing off. They warned him he was about to be tazered if he didn't submit and he got worse, so they tazered him, then he mouthed off some more and taunted them. It was all filmed very clearly with dialogue included and presented on the news today.

I'd say the drunken fool will be wishing he hadn't in the morning.

Wolf, those are common cases referenced. It doesn't mean the police aren't obligated to help you if you're wronged. It means you can't hold the government liable if you get wronged when no cops are around or aware of the crime. It doesn't mean cops don't have a job, it clarifies the fact that the police can't be everywhere and know everything. Do you want everyone with a car stolen to be able to sue the state for it's cost? What about if you get jumped in a back alley and the cops can't find who did it, are you going to sue the police force for not being there?

That's very interesting. I presume it includes crack.
Should police therefore be extra reluctant to use a Taser on someone suspected of being on cocaine or crack, since it is more likely (than usual) to be fatal to them?
It would be hard to say that, because the freaking-out-crack-head is precisely the scenario tasers are best suited for: people who won't listen to reason, are dangerous to tackle hand-to-hand, but probably don't need to be shot.
Wolf, do you know exactly what the cause of death is? 'cause I'd like to see a guideline that after tasing a suspected cocaine user, medical treatment is immediately begun to address the effects of the tasing.

Everybody tasered that's coming to us has to go to an ER first, usually with admission to CCU to keep an eye on cardiac enzymes. Nobody who's gone through that had died in our care, cocaine use or not. The two crack users who did didn't get their levels monitored and treated for a day or two.

And yes, I should have specified crack cocaine use. I don't know if the regular old nose candy ups the ante or not.

Cause of death is heart failure. Autopsies usually don't get more specific than that. Real life is not CSI.

logically, one would have to assume tasering saves more lives than it takes. the alternative to tasering would be for police to physically subdue a suspect which can easily result in harm to both parties. i do not however believe it should be used in circumstances where there appears to be no physical threat to any parties no matter how annoying they are, such as:



and



oh yea and

That idiot kid was drive stunned, not shot with the taser. There's a significant difference.

that second video your posted was FUCKED UP, rex. That's precisely when not to use a taser... when the 120 lb woman is on the ground already...

Get out of the car or I'm going to tase you!? Fuck that. I hope that cop lost his job.

New Scientist has a discussion page about what you can do to lessen the effect of tasers.

Not much, it seems, although a thick, very conductive jacket might do the trick. And you can, it seems, build up a resistance to it. Being on PCP helps.

But folks point out that if you do thwart the taser, the next step for the cop is the 9mm.

The UN sez tasers are torture!

it's kind of a stupid argument to me. a taser is a weapon, just like a gun or a knife. A weapon does not mean the same thing as torture.

i.e., tasers don't torture people, people do.

Well if the UN says it, it must be true huh?

That's true. Any weapon, even non-lethal ones, can be used as instruments of torture. Shooting someone in the kneecaps when they do not pose a threat is torture.

I think the UN is trying to make the point that since tasers are 'non-lethal', police feel freer to keep zapping suspects even after they are down as an active restraint. This is in spite of the fact that most police departments make officers experience a taser as part of their training.

my kinda guy:D

Re Rexmons 3rd clip:
Wow - that's the best video clip I've seen yet of Don't Tase Me Bro - although it missed out what prompted the attempted removal from the hall.

It backs up my opinion that the security guards (?police?) were completely right in their actions. I understand from another thread here that if he had been tased he would have been unable to get up (unless he was on crack) therefore the whole issue is null and void as after shouting "Owwww! Owww! Owww!" etc he was escorted off the premises on his own two feet.

Anyone why carries on screaming and shouting at security guard/ police and therefore doesn't hear what they are being asked to do, deserves the sated penalty in the same way as if they are deliberately disobeying the request.

Nope, again, seems reasonable to me. She could have been on the phone to anyone. Her licence is suspended, she has a broken tail-light, her windscreen is cracked and she was speeding. She is now not co-operating with a reasonable request to get off the phone and step out of the car. She could have been alerting someone nearby to come by and shoot. She could have had a gun in the car herself, or her passenger (I think I heard her talking to one) could have.

She wasn't tased until she didn't respond to reasonable requests and was warned at least three times that she would be tased. Sorry but you know when your licence has been suspended, even if I accept some people don't realise they've been speeding. She's already a criminal, the police could not know what to expect.

I would not want to see this scene in England where car drivers do not routinely carry guns, or cannot easily phone people who do. But in the US I think it's a viable way to save wounding and death for the police.

The 1st video was fucked up, yes. But I suspect it was heavily cropped.

.... and I say :

Guns with bullets hurt even more.:thepain:

Bit of a daft question really. Kind of like saying 'is knifing torture?'

Depends on what you are doing with the knife. If you've stabbed someone through the heart then it isn't torture, it's killing. If you've slashed at someone to keep them from attacking you, it's self defence. If you've tied them to a chair and started cutting them again and again in different places until they tell you what you want to know, it's torture.

The woman in the first video was an ignorant bitch. She might as well have begged the cop to tase her. *I* wanted to tase her.

If she follows police instructions, she doesn't get tased. If she felt that she'd been unjustly detained, call a lawyer afterward, but the woman was operating her vehicle in apparent violation of at least a couple of laws (broken windshield, taillight out, no seat belt, and probably didn't have insurance or registration proof, from the sound of it), she became argumentative and verbally combative, and directly defied the orders of a police officer...multiple times. There wasn't one damn thing the guy said to her that she didn't argue about. She was begging to be detained and arrested. What was the cop supposed to do, physically drag her out of the car, risking greater injury to both the subject and himself? Or should he have just walked away and said, "Nevermind, lady. You've convinced me that it isn't worth the trouble"?

Looks to me like she was trying to provoke a situation whereby she might be able to sue and get a settlement somehow. Fucking waste of human space.

Sorry. Not feeling very socially tolerant this morning.

I agree spode.

I still contend that with the proper adjustments on those things they could be used for foreplay at a much lower voltage. :D

i'm no fan of cops, but in all honesty i was rooting for them to just shoot the stupid fuckers in the 2nd and 3rd videos. i find them guilty of wasting my oxygen.

You're very interesting, Merc. Very.

You know, if this womans parents had given her a few more beltings as a kid she'd probably know when to do what she's told.

The ones that really irritate me are the talkers. They're always college-age males, like that guy in the UCLA library awhile back, or Mr. Don'tTaseMeBro, and they've clearly been raised to think that everything is up for discussion and compromise. They're never aggressive, but they never shut up and do what they're being told either. It's always, "I'm going, man--I just want to know..." and "Listen, just tell me why..." It's not your job to determine if the situation is fair. They're the cops and you're not. If you think you've been wronged, get a damn lawyer.

I know the ones you mean. There was a teenage party up the street from our place which the cops came to break up. Some of the kids insisted on mouthing off to the cops as they went about how unfair it was etc, and then there were the ones who wanted to argue about it and stand till. It really was quite funny watching these kids get loaded into the paddy wagon after being wrestled to the ground and handcuffed.

Torture is that which shocks the conscience; so, it's OK to taser someone as long as you don't shoot them in the head.