Under the heading of Getting Burned on the Irony
 

We have this little gem from Sidney, Australia in early July. A Scientologist couple meddled with their psychotic daughter's course of antipsychotic medications. Result, dad and sister dead, mother wounded, psychotic daughter visibly hallucinating.

Not quite a current event, so I'm tucking this in Philosophy because of the religious angle. (Having read two biographies of L. Ron Hubbard back to back, I'm never going to think of Scientology as a religion. Nothing good or enlightened would have come of such a man.)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...50.html?page=3

So a Scientology bigwig in Australia gets reached for comment -- and a psych professional tells him where to get off:

http://www.topix.net/forum/med/psych...2V8EH0BRFHKPUD

I never read his biography, but I did try to wade through one of his sci-fi books...ouch. I didn't know about the whole Scientology thing back then, I just grabbed a sci-fi book off a library shelf.

I don't think I managed to get more than a quarter of the way through it before I put it down in dismay. These days I tend to leave a book easily if it's not grabbed me, back then, I really hated leaving an unfinished book...s it was very unusual for me not to read through to the end, even if it was pretty bad. The Hubbard book was unreadable. It was like reading a book written by a fourteen year old boy, with no discernable talent beyond a vivid and highly sexualised imagination. A Heinlein wannabe who didn't quite get what it was that made Heinlein so great.

Sydney. ;)

All religion is mostly made up of sheep and psychos. It's a shame that things like this happen, but honestly, things like this happen in families where religion is not a factor at all. I doubt all the blame can be laid at the feet of whatever church you happen to be talking about at the time.

Most other "churches" don't openly shun the use of psychiatrists and psychiatric medications, though. She was crazy to begin with, but the religion is the reason she went off the meds.

I heard that anti-psychotics made normal people psychotic. This is all.......

Frankly they deserved what they got.

Scientologists are notoriously anti-psych medication. One of Elron's "teachings" was that modern psychology is bunk. This in turn is why Tom Cruise ranted against Ritalin on the Today show a few years back. "You don't know the history of psychology... I do."

No, they don't. It's medicine, not homeopathy*.

You'll get some of the effects that don't directly address the psychotic symptoms, like the voices ... you will probably get sleepy, and may even experience some of the side effects.









* The notion behind homeopathy is that you are given a substance that will causethe symptom you are having, and somehow magically cure it. More than magically, actually, because the mixture is so dilute that no molecules of the original substance remain in the homeopathic solution.

Kind of like the way that tearing down your muscle fibers in the gym, makes you stronger? IE, the "cure" for "weakness" ...

[quote=wolf;381464]You'll get some of the effects that don't directly address the psychotic symptoms, like the voices ... you will probably get sleepy, and may even experience some of the side effects.
=wolf;381464QUOTE]

So if a normal person takes it they will experience "the voices" and side effects?

This is confusing....

No, some of the effects of the drugs don't directly address psychotic symptoms (such as hearing voices). So, in addition to tackling the hearing of voices, the drug may also help them relax: if you take the drug, there are no voices for it to tackle but it may well still relax you (or make you sleepy) and you may experience the same side effects as anyone else taking the drug.

You're more than little off here. Homeopathy suggests that a body can normally take care of itself, but in cases where it cannot, giving it a substance with the same "vibrations" as those which are causing the problem, will spur the body into action.
Anyone who has ever used homeopathy on a baby or child (who doesn't know about placebos) knows that it works - if you use the right vibration, which is the tricky part.

Nope, no voices. By side effects I mean things like walking funny, drooling, twitching, and not being able to maintain an erection ... and you wonder why it's hard to keep psychiatric patients on their medications.

Where "vibration" is defined as "having once been in contact with a molecule that was once in contact with a molecule, etc. etc., that was once in contact with a molecule of a substance that in sufficient dose might cause similar symptoms".

Giving homeopathic remedies to kids or pets works when they are suffering from something that would go away by itself anyway. In those cases, the placebo effect is on you, when you attribute any change in behavior to the bottled water you gave them.

Even if you believe in "vibrations", at the dilution levels that they use, every molecule of water on Earth has already picked up "vibrations" from every possible substance on Earth before the preparation process begins. Drinking a glass of tap water would cure all diseases.

Maybe read up on this a little more.

Have you ever had a teething baby? Seriously.

OK, done. That was untrue. Water does not "cluster". Shui Yin Lo is a quack who claimed to have made room temperature ice.
I haven't had one, but I've had younger siblings. It may seem like it, but they don't actually cry 24 hours a day. They will stop at some point.

So a burn left untreated will stop hurting as quickly as it will if treated with calendula? Do a little experiment on your own and find out.

And maybe read this.

A quick Googling reveals calendula to be an ointment with an actual herbal component. I don't know about it in particular, but it is at least possible for herbal remedies to work, as they actually have ingredients, and many medicines are derived from plants. Herbal remedies (the ones that actually work) don't rely on "vibrations" or "clustering", they are essentially weak versions of the actual medications that are derived from them.
I know what natural frequency and natural resonance are.

Natural resonance is irrelevant to the concept of homeopathy. It is based on a real vibration, not "vibration" or water "clusters".
When they say vibration here, they are talking about actual, physical, left-right-up-down-to-fro movement. Resonance in a molecule will result in heat- that's how microwave ovens work. Resonance in a liquid will result in waves. Kids often discover this in the bath, when they make splashes at just the right frequency to amplify them over the side of the tub. Resonance in a sugar pill will cause it to crumble.

A quick googling will reveal arnica montana, bee venom, belladonna, arsenic etc. to be actual substances - and yet when prepared homeopathically, like calendula, they should be ineffective according to your argument.

All I'm saying is that in my experience, the shit works. If you're saying that you're not buying it because current science can't explain it to your satisfaction - I'm fine with that. And it still works.

I did not know that Bob Dole was a side effect...

Yes, when prepared homeopathically, they are useless. Calendula as well. If they are prepared in an herbal or folk concoction, they may be useful (or harmful). That's one thing that is good about homeopathic remedies- they can honestly say there are no harmful side effects, as there are no effects at all.

For example, if you take some calendula and mix it with fat, and smear it on a burn, then you are applying calendula to the burn. If calendula is efficacious, then it will have its effect.

If you take calendula, and mix it into ten units of water, and then repeat that process thirty times, then all you will have left is water, and when you put it on a burn, it will be as useful as water.

So calendula 1X HPUS in fat would do what?

Apparently 1X means one part calendula to 9 parts water. So there's still some actual ingredient in there. It would do whatever calendula does. If smearing calendula on a burn is helpful, is still may work in a 1X.

On the other hand, getting a 90% water mixture to stick in fat is a bit of a trick. You'd be better off using the raw calendula and putting the right dose directly into the fat. 0X HPUS, if you will.

Assuming, of course, that calendula is beneficial in the first place.

Interesting article related to vibrations...

Good, good, good, good vibrations!