"Why do Palestinians hate us?"
 

This is why.

"peace cannot be made without strength"

That is not peace, that is complete control.

If I am the neighborhood bully I can keep peace by saying I will beat the living daylights out of anyone that questions me but is that really peace? For me, peace is usually compromise and acceptance, not that.



For why the Palestinians hate us part:

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/2ee...6!OpenDocument

I'm not happy with this give away of my money.... not at all.

But the Palestinians are living in poverty because they chose to, time after time. Remember the west bank greenhouses? Remember the millions and millions we gave Palestine before Hamas took over?

That is one view - the other is that they are strong and therefore will not be attacked - maybe that is the point that is trying to be conveyed. There can still be strength without "complete control."
Strength to defend oneself is obviously also very important.

Arafat died a billionaire.

Kept it in Swiss and French banks.

Yeah. The Israeli's bulldozing their settlements and cutting them off with walls and road blocks, often to the point of preventing farmers accessing their farms and shopkeepers accessing their shops, that had fuck all to do with it.

With a reach like that you could box Muhammed Ali.

What you don't think the Israeli tactics have had an effect on the day to day functioning of trade and commerce?

And his wife continues to live off of those riches.

Yes, but it's taken 50 years of escalation to get to this point. 50 years of lost opportunities for the Palestinians that were fighting a losing battle to drive the Jews out, instead of thriving along with them.

I don't think thriving along with them was an option

Oh but it was, and they did, until about 1967. And many after that.

Give proof of how they thrived along with them. 800,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948, I don't know how many people would suddenly just say "Don't worry about stealing our homes, we just want to be friends now". I mean, c'mon, how would you react to people taking your property without notice to install a new state and then place you in horrible refugee camps.

This money is going to build walls which will further enclose the Palestinians. The problem is not solely the Palestinians, they are not going to be as efficient as making money but they can support themselves if given the room. The problem is that they don't have the room to farm.

What does this have to do with anything? So, you will have a few people that will take advantage of situations like this but that has very little to do with the poverty being the Palestinians fault. Something like this will happen in similar situations to any group of people.

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/20...-stranglehold/

Arafat didn't become a billionaire by being an oil tycoon or something. He became a billionaire by stealing palestinian aid money. The west put its blinders on (just like you are doing) and pretended it didn't happen and continued to send money. Arafat's assistant said 900M of aid money was simply missing.

Something like this will happen in similar situations to any group of people.

From all of history, name two.

Eh-heh. I get different information from that story than you do.

Blaming the "other" is standard practice in unsuccessful cultures... and almost guarantees continued failure.

Can you see any examples of "blaming the other" in your own culture? Have you ever heard anyone say "The niggers|jews|spics|rich people|poor people|drug dealers|cops are responsible for all the problems we're having!"

Wow, it doesn't sound very intelligent does it? The Palestinians are TAUGHT that the others are responsible for their failure. TAUGHT TAUGHT TAUGHT. With fucking Mickey Mouse ripoffs on national TV.

This is more responsible for their failure than ANYTHING ELSE. And here it spreads to you and Dana. Wow?

Israel was a desert. But the people focused on being productive instead of simply focusing on hate. And now the desert blooms. The same could happen in Palestinian territories. It is ONLY a cultural problem.

Wake up and smell the fucking coffee already.

Why don't the local Arab nations assimilate the Palestinians? They all say the Palestinians' plight is so horrible, why not help them, instead of spewing the "Isreal must go" retoric, and keeping them in refugee camps?

They can not do anything about it, that is the problem. They do not have the room to be self supportive because of the walls Israel is building. If they do get land (the worse land in the area BTW), Israeli troops will sometimes destroy them.

You do have a point with the "blame the other" situation but to think that a society is always at fault no matter how much outside pressure is applied is not very intelligent either. There is a time for responsibility within a culture as a whole and a time when you can legitimately as a culture blame an outside force for parts of the problem and from what I have seen, Palestine has a very good argument.

I mean, you can not blame a child for not turning in an assignment when the bully (that is much stronger than him) rips up his homework every day before class and the teacher or any authority refuses to do anything about it.

Much different than using "The niggers|jews|spics|rich people|poor people|drug dealers|cops".

I agree that always blaming problems on outside sources is very dangerous but going to the extreme as to blame the person for every problem they have is just as bad. Shit does happen.



For being self-supportive, they have the worst land in the area because Israel has claimed the best, lost about 75% of their former land, and now the territories have the 7th highest population density in the world. They have very bad health care and education and it isn't improving along with an extreme poverty rate of over 50%. It is extremely hard, if not impossible to start up a stable economy under those conditions, even without outside pressure from Israel.

When you add Israel's influence then the chances plummet even more. Israel is a country that has broken numerous international laws and violated(1) many more human right violations(2). In 2003, Durfur supporters were getting extremely angry at human right groups focusing all the attention on Israel(3).

This also brings up the sociological issue of hopelessness within a culture. This will be highly controversial but to exclude this is leaving out a very important factor that Israel or the US never had to face in large amounts and it is something we can not solve either in small amounts. One example would be trying to rid our government of corruption, if we can get rid of that then maybe you can make an argument about Palestine's culture being at fault.

If you ignore the premises, maybe. If we both start businesses and I have one million dollars and a masters in business and you have one thousand dollars and no experience and a much smaller lot, you can not expect you to even close to the success I can have. Israel has had an enormous amount of financial and military support from the US and other countries, something you can not ignore when comparing them to Palestine.



I do disagree with many things Hamas do such as that Mickey Mouse parody but to think that is the sole influence of the "blaming of others" problem is a very weak argument. I can guarantee most of the hatred comes from actual experiences with Israeli troops and this propaganda only will enforce it. For example, using cluster bombs and civilian human body shields are much more powerful than a stupid TV shows.

Maybe I can’t name two for the exact conditions but you can name many rulers that have used personal gain as a reason to hold their people down, most of these can be seen in third world countries.



(1) http://www.geocities.com/savepalesti...ides/sgil3.htm
(2) http://www.pchrgaza.ps/files/W_repor...21-06-2007.htm
(3) http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/...OsAndSudan.htm

They refuse to do anything about it.

What a load of crap. "We are unsuccessful because we can't easily enter our worst enemy's territory." Can't you look at this one at face value and see how ridiculous it is?

Bulldoze, but not indiscriminately. If they are the family of a suicide bomber, or the entrance to an arms-smuggling tunnel, the dozers move in.

Boo fuckin' hoo.

That's bullshit, but you can imagine how such a notion got started. After all, it's pretty much all bad land... but somehow the Joos made their parts green. Everywhere they worked the land, they turned it green.

When you said "claimed", by the way, I'm sure you meant "taken over as a defensive measure during a defensive war." And really, now that Israel does not occupy southern Lebanon, and has given back Gaza, and kicked Israeli settlers out of their houses and off what they considered to be their land, some of the old talking points are starting to look a little kooky.

Do you want to talk about a people that faced a rough start? How about the Jews? Their starting point was the Holocaust. And after that, most incoming Israelis were unceremoniously kicked out of their previous residence in neighboring Arab countries.

Did they blame the other? They had every right to, didn't they? Practically no people in modern history has had a bigger right to blame the other. And for a while, many of them were steaming mad and pursued outrageous, even terroristic acts and policies.

But, for the most part, they spent more time building a productive culture, improving themselves and their society, until voila -- they are now so powerful that one can't even remember when they were not the powerful ones. So powerful, that we now hear arguments about how the Jews got a better start, a big advantage.

Six million dead, and the rest in ghettos or kicked out of their countries...

US support for Israel did not really start in meaningful quantity until 1973 and didn't really grow large until 1979. Seriously. You could look it up.

But even then, as with the Arafat example, support is one thing... having a culture that will do something productive with it, is another. They were given a University! They use it to teach bomb-making methods. They were given television stations! They use them to indoctrinate the kids in hate. They were given loads and loads of money! They used it to buy munitions. They were given the vote! They voted for Hamas.

Helpless? Not hardly; when they ask for food aid instead of monetary aid, get back to me.

Very good source of new recruits for various orginizations? And a ready supply of hate to help those new recruits make their choices? I dunno. But that's what I'd be doing, were I in their shoes.

The Palestinians don't want to be 'assimilated' into someone else's country. They want to be palestinians, in their own country. They no more want to be honorary Lebonese than I want to be an honorary French woman.

What can they do about it?

I am looking at it at face value. You can not build a successful agricultural society without land. If you do not have the land, you can not succeed, it is very simple.

Give proof of that, and even that is not an excuse to violate the family's property rights. Do we bulldoze the home the families that have a murderer as a son? Of course not, neither should Israel.

You are a strong supporter of right to property since you are libertarian right? So why the hell are you defending a group that illegally takes away people's property and sends them to refugee camps? What about the 800,000 people that were kicked out of Israel in 1948, do they not deserve their land or what?

If the United States took your house away and sent you to a incredibly horrible refugee camp you would be screaming bloody murder. Stop with that bullshit.

People have been living on that land for over 10,000 years, parts of the land is very good for agriculture and some of it isn't, hardly a desert.

Stop with that defensive shit. They knew if they created Israel in that spot the neighboring countries would attack and displacing 800,000 people is not a defensive measure. If I go into a house where I know I will be attacked when I walk in and then I do get attacked and fight back it is not defensive since I am provoking them to attack. Israel should not have been placed in that spot since everyone knew it would cause major problems. They had a choice and refused to make the decisions so in reality Israel created every one of its problems since it could have been avoided.

Wait, so if I I go into wolf's house and steal something, then go into xoxoxoBruce's house and steal something, then I go into your house and steal something but give it back to you after much protest I should be looked as merciful? I will start a life of crime then.

[quoteDo you want to talk about a people that faced a rough start? How about the Jews? Their starting point was the Holocaust. And after that, most incoming Israelis were unceremoniously kicked out of their previous residence in neighboring Arab countries.[/quote]
The Jews did have a rough start but it doesn't justify their actions. Israel should not have been placed where it was, clear and simple, they walked into all their problems on that regard.

I will agree with this but it still doesn't excuse their current actions.

They did work hard but they were on a much better situation to build a country than Palestine is now.

And that excuses them to kill Palestinians and kick them out of their homes in a place that they knew would cause trouble?


I'll agree with that for military help but we have been supporting Israel economically since 1949 or 1951.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...us_support.php

Hamas does all that stuff and you have a hell of a lot of arrogance to criticize who they vote for when you do not experience what they do. The fact is that Hamas gives an extremely high amount of non-military social services to Palestine and is the only one that guarantees a destruction of Israel (that does not mean destruction as total destruction but just the destruction of the state structure). All the polls I have seen says that most Palestinians do want peace so this does not make sense. Maybe, because most Palestinians can not see peace under Israel, but only when the state is destroyed.

Hamas is asking for food, and there are many other reasons for their election so this does not necessarily represent the people.

If we choose not to understand how they feel about us we can't complain about Iran, or anyone else, supplying arms to insurgents in Iraq.

The Jews didn't suddenly appear in 1948, they had been moving into the area since the late 1800s, especially after 1931. As they improved the land and built the economy, more of the Palestinians were drawn to the area from all over the region... they also prospered.

At the time, as it had been for thousands of years, others ruled the area but didn't live there, until the UN gave it over to the Jews. The Palestinians didn't care because they had never been the rulers. The Arabs, who had been the rulers before the British, declared war on the Jews figuring they couldn't reclaim the area from the Brits but the Jews would be a push over.

Meanwhile most of the Palestinians, who had for centuries just split until the rulers finished fighting then moved back, followed the traditional pattern. But this was a new era and when the fighting was done, the Jews weren't going home victorious... they were home. The Palestinians that stayed and the ones that returned, prospered along with the Jews.

After the Arabs got their ass kicked, they started working on the Palestinians to become a constant threat to the Jews. By keeping them poor and pissed the could recruit them to do what outside world would frown on the Arabs doing.

Finally, in the late 80s, the Arabs organized Hamas to have better control over all the little terrorists they had groomed. The constant bullshit from Hamas became such a pain in the ass for the Jews they kicked the Palestinians out of Israel, where they were doing well as citizens... second class citizens, but a hell of a lot better off than the Palestinians that were coached by the Arabs.

The Arabs have been using the Palestinians as a tool against the Jews for sixty years, and through the Muslim Brotherhood formed Hamas, for the last twenty.

Israelis moving there is one thing, being told "your house is theirs now, get tha' fuck out" is another. I'd kill em' too.

The Palestinians are Arabs and never had a problem sharing the land with the Jewish people until the U.N. stepped in and took it from the Arab Palestinians. This article has a very good breakdown of the events that unfolded. Also, since the U.S. is one of the 5 permanent members of the U.N. security councel they've been pretty busy is Israeli agenda.

U.S. Vetos since 1973 regarding Israel:

July 1973, S/10974

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution strongly deplored Israel's occupation of the Arab territories since 1967, and expressed serious concern with the Israeli authorities' lack of cooperation with the UN Special Representative of the Secretary General.

January 1976, S/11940

Vote: 9 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
The resolution called for Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories since 1967, and deplored Israel's refusal to implement relevant UN resolutions. It furthermore reaffirmed the right of the Palestinian people to self determination, and the right of return for Palestinian refugees.

March 1976, S/12022

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

In the draft, the Security Council expressed deep concern over Israeli measures to change the character of the occupied territories, in particular Jerusalem, the establishment of Israeli settlements, human rights violations, and called for an end of such measures.

June 1976, S/12119

Vote: 10 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution affirmed the right of the Palestinian people to self determination, the right of return, and the right to national independence.

April 1980, S/13911

Vote: 10 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution affirmed the Palestinian right to establish an independent state, the right of return or compensation for loss of property for refugees not wishing to return, and Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories since 1967.

April 1982, S/14943

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
In the draft, the Security Council denounced Israeli interference with local governance in the West Bank, and its violations of the rights and liberties of the population in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The resolution furthermore called on Israel to end all activities in breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

April 1982, S/14985

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The draft strongly condemned the shooting of worshippers at Haram Al-Sharif on 11 April, 1982, and called on Israel to observe and apply the provisions of the Forth Geneva Convention, and other international laws.

June 1982, S/15185

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution draft condemned the Israeli non-compliance with resolutions 508 and 509, urged the parties to comply with the Hague Convention of 1907, and restated the Security Council's demands of Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

June 1982, S/15255/Rev. 2

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
The resolution demanded the immediate withdrawal of Israeli and Palestinian forces from areas in and around Beirut, and that the parties would comply with resolution 508. It furthermore requested that the Secretary General would station UN military observers to supervise the ceasefire and disengagement in and around Beirut, and that the Secretary General would make proposals for the installation of a UN force to take up positions beside the Lebanese interposition force.

August 1982, S/15347/Rev. 1

Vote: 11 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution strongly condemned Israel for not implementing resolutions 516 and 517, called for their immediate implementation, and decided that all UN member-states would refrain from providing Israel with weapons or other military aid until Israeli withdrawal from Lebanese territory.

August 1983, S/15895

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution called upon Israel to discontinue the establishment of new settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, to dismantle existing settlements, and to adhere to the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. The resolution furthermore rejected Israeli deportations and transfers of Palestinian civilians, and condemned attacks against the Arab civilian population. The Security Council also called upon other states to refrain from giving Israel any assistance related to the settlements, and stated its intention to examine ways of securing the implementation of the resolution, in the event of Israeli non-compliance

September 1985, S/17459

Vote: 10 in favor, 1 veto (US), 4 abstentions.

The resolution draft deplored the repressive measures applied by the Israeli authorities against the Palestinian population in the occupied territories, and called upon Israel to immediately cease the use of repressive measures, including the use of curfews, deportations, and detentions.

January 1986, S/17769

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US), 1 abstention.

The resolution strongly deplored Israeli refusal to abide earlier Security Council resolutions, and called upon Israel to comply with these resolutions, as well as the norms of international law governing military occupation such as the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Security Council also expressed deep concern with violations of the sanctity of the Haram Al-Sharif, and with Israeli measures aimed at altering the character of the occupied territories, including Jerusalem.

January 1988, S/19466

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution called upon Israel to accept the de jure applicability of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War to the territories occupied since 1967, and to conform to the Convention. The resolution moreover called upon Israel to refrain from practices violating the human rights of the Palestinian people.

April 1988, S/19780

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution expressed grave concerned with the Israeli use of collective punishment, including house demolitions. It condemned the policies and practices utilized by the Israeli authorities violating the human rights of the Palestinian People, especially the killing and wounding of defenseless Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army. Called on Israel to abide to the Fourth Geneva Convention, and urged it to desist from deporting Palestinians.

February 1989, S/20463

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution strongly deplored Israeli persistence in violating the human rights of the Palestinian people, in particular the shooting of Palestinian civilians, including children. It also deplored Israel's disregard of Security Council decisions, and called upon Israel to act in accordance with the Fourth Geneva Convention and relevant Security Council resolutions.

June 1989, S/20677

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).
The resolution deplored the violations of the human rights of the Palestinian people, demanded that Israel would abstain from deporting Palestinian civilians for the occupied territories, and that it would ensure the safe return of those already deported. It also called upon Israel to comply with the Fourth Geneva Convention, and requested that the Secretary General would give recommendations on measures guaranteeing compliance with the Convention, and the protection of Palestinian civilians in the occupied territories.

November 1989, S/20945/Rev. 1

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
The resolution deplored the Israeli violations of the human rights of the Palestinian people, including the siege of towns, ransacking of homes, and confiscation of property. It called upon Israel to abide to the Fourth Geneva Convention, to lift the siege, and to return confiscated property to its owners. The resolution requested that the Secretary General would conduct on-site monitoring of the situation in the occupied territories.

May 1990, S/21326

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The draft resolution attempted to establish a commission to examine the situation related to Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories, including Jerusalem.

May 1995, S/1995/394

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution confirmed that the Israeli expropriation of Palestinian land in East Jerusalem was invalid, and called upon Israel to refrain from such actions. It also expressed its support for the Middle East peace process and urged the parties to adhere to the accord agreed upon.

March 1997, S/1997/199

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution expressed deep concern with the Israeli plans to build new settlements in East Jerusalem, and called upon Israel to desist from measures, including the building of settlements, that would pre-empt the final status negotiations. The resolution once again called on Israel to abide by the provisions of the Geneva Convention.

March 1997, S/1997/241

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US), 1 abstention.

The resolution demanded an end to the Israeli construction of the Jabal Abu Ghneim settlement in East Jerusalem, and to all other measures related to settlements in the occupied territories.

March 2001, S/2001/270

Vote: 9 in favor, 1 veto (US), 4 abstentions.

The resolution called for a total and immediate stop of all acts of violence, provocation, and collective punishment, as well as a complete cessation of Israeli settlement activities, and an end of the closures of the occupied territories. The resolution furthermore called for the implementation of the Sharm El-Sheikh agreement, and expressed the Security Council's willingness to set up mechanisms to protect the Palestinian civilians, including the establishment of a UN observer force.

December 2001, S/2001/1199

Vote: 12 in favor, 1 veto (US) 2 abstentions.

In the resolution, the Security Council condemned all acts of terror, extrajudiciary executions, excessive use of force and destruction of properties, and demanded an end of all acts of violence, destruction and provocation. The resolution called on the parties to resume negotiations, and to implement the recommendations of the Mitchell Report. It also encouraged the establishment of a monitoring apparatus for the above mentioned implementation.

http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-cont...tine%20map.jpg

As long as the US keeps Israel in the latest military equipment up to their eyes the US supports all that they do.

I'm glad they killed 508, 509, 516 & 517. Injecting UN troops into the Israeli Lebanese war would have been a bigger bloodbath than the Korean war.

I used Arab and Palestinian to differentiate between the people that belong there and the ones that are just making trouble.
But since you Claim Palestinians are Arabs, no, they are not all Arabs.

I know Hamas is a militant wing of the Muslim Brotherhood but everything I have read said it was founded by two Palestinians during the first Intifada in 1988. I'm sure they had the backing of the neighboring sects outside of Palestine but I haven't seen anything that suggests that Arabs outside of Palestine had a direct effect on its founding, but that it came from within.

Here is a good site on the founding of Hamas:
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamashistory.htm

Here are the supposed reasons why Hamas was elected in 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

They were given $14 million-dollar greenhouses! Their first instinct was to tear them down.

When we talk about "understanding" we pretty damn well better put effort into understanding both sides. One of the things that the Pals have gotten reward for is suicide bombing. The family of the bomber was previously rewarded (by Saddam Hussein) a check for $25000 for each splodey-dope produced, and other Arab leaders have done similarly, and may still have such a reward system. In a poor society, this worked well to produce a steady stream of suiciders. What would you do?

What would WE do? Are you kidding me? If the US was faced with a similar situation, with Canadians proclaiming war on the US and suicide bombing, after a while there would be no Canadians left.

But Israel decided on a policy of building a wall and bulldozing the houses of the families. And what do you know, it worked.

Bruce has covered this one, thanks B.

They were told "don't attack us over that border again or we will kick your ass and take your land." They attacked over that border. They had their land tooken. Now you describe that land taking as "theft". I suppose Israel should have said, "Please attack us across that border because we aren't going to do anything about it." Or perhaps, "If you attack us over that border we will declare 'total war' and kill every last one of you."

Criticizing voting in terrorists is arrogance. This is what it comes to, from your side. You know, other people in the world far worse off, far harsher situations and treated more brutally, have not become terroristic. Why IS that.

It's five generations now since the original creation. Maybe time to grow the fuck up and stop hating and get on with life. Maybe time you stopped supporting the haters by endlessly rationalizing what they do. The state of Israel can produce enough jobs to support every single Pal. A perfect bootstrap for a nation is to have a wealthy nation on the border building factories and stuff. All they have to do is grow up. We all hoped once Arafat was gone it would cause them to do so.

The fact is, Palestinians have been lied to. And as a result, they have hope. They have the hope that they can destroy Israel and that this is the answer to all their problems. Because people like you (and most of Europe) have bought into all the lies, all the crap, all the nonsense and repeated it back to them. Oh yes, the reason you aren't successful is a wall. Oh yes, the reason you aren't successful is because the other is creating a bad condition for you. Oh yes, the whole UN agrees with you, to the point where real refugees having actual human rights violations are utterly ignored, just so that they can gang up on Israel again.

Until they are truly hopeless on that matter, nothing will change.

Did you just say 'tooken'?

Yes, recalling Eminem's "Marshall Mathers" (2000):

I'm anti-Backstreet and Ricky Martin
with instincts to kill N'Sync, don't get me started
These fuckin brats can't sing and Britney's garbage
What's this bitch retarded? Gimme back my sixteen dollars
All I see is sissies in magazines smiling
Whatever happened to whylin out and bein violent?
Whatever happened to catchin a good-ol' fashioned passionate ass-whoopin
and gettin your shoes coat and your hat tooken?

Purely focusing on the Palestinians, yes, this is a problem but it is hard differiate what is out of pure desperation and what is just selfish gain. It is very hard to tell with the contradicting information we get about Palestine and the situation they are in.

Many other societies (Rwanda and Easter Island for example) have been through this in the past where conditions became so bad that small individual gains would always beat the big long term gains for society. People in Rwanda would sell off part of their land to larger landowners to buy food knowing that they would need that land in the future to survive. And this is just like the question asked by students studying the history of Easter Island "What was the person that cut down the last tree on Easter Island thinking when he did it?".

Ignoring the past and only focusing on the present, if this is an act out of pure desperation, then there is truly no hope for the Palestinians (unless something bigger than what is currently happening changes) and their downward spiral will continue no matter how much effort is put in to help them because any long term investment will instantly be destroyed to fulfill the hungry's stomach for a day. If this is out of selfish gain, then it is a problem that can be fixed. Then the majority should focus on stopping the minority of looters that does not represent the majority that may want to work for a larger gain. The realism of the past sentence is very doubtful and I have hard time believing that anything could happen even if they tried.

Since the whole Palestine-Israel conflict is cause and effect, so you can not ignore the question of whether Israel caused the desperation.

Israel is in a catch 22 and they will lose no matter what they do. Building illegal walls may help their immediate interests but will most likely hurt them later on down the road when the Palestinians become even more violent.

It’s kind of like the problem America has with terrorists. To defend ourselves against them by using methods that will only create more terrorists, how are you helping yourself?

It just covered up the problem, didn’t solve anything.

And the Palestinians said “if you don’t leave the area we will attack you”. It is an issue that goes back and forth for thirty years, unless there is a legitimate compromise (all the ones in the past have been shit), neither side will stop because there interests are overlapping eachother tremendously.

Hamas being a terrorist organization is not clear cut. Most Palestinians do not consider them a terrorist state because Israel can be considered an occupying force making Hamas a resistance movement. Their attacking of civilians is inexcusable but the fact that they shouldn’t be there in the first place is what makes that subject so controversial.

And the Palestinians voting in Hamas has its legitimate reasons so stop focusing on one issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Why did Rwanda resort to genocide when other areas didn’t? Because of other factors involved. There is no other place in the world that has as many variables to the equation as Palestine (besides Iraq but that still has its differences), it is much more complicated then any other region, so they will act differently then other places. You can not focus on one issue with this problem.

That is why I am pro-bi-national state but both sides have to grow up on this issue for it to even by halfway successful, not just the Palestinians.

I don’t honesetly think that many think they can actually destroy the state of Israel. It is just that over half of Palestinians don’t think that they could survive in the separate Palestinian state, which explains their allegiance to a group that calls for the destruction of Israel. In my opinion, a bi-national state is the only way to solve this process peacefully in the long run but no is willing to look at it.

How do you know that it is the “lies” being told to them that mold their opinions? If I went back in time to the south in the 1700s and started giving speeches to the black slaves there, do you think they wouldn’t already think that the problem is the white slave-owners and the whole society that holds them down? I’m pretty sure most Palestinians hate Israel for their own reasons and the “lies” have very little to do with it.

Must be pretty good reasons, to send your kids out the blow themselves up.

I think the real problem is that the Israelis like us too much. If we could get them to hate us a bit more, it would give them even more commonality with the Palestinians and help them work together more.

Or.....if you guys could learn to hate the Israelis, you could pal up with the Palestinians.

What? and get our heads cut off.... no thanks.

If anyone caught Christiane Amanpour special "Gods Warrior's" on CNN the other night, you will see that there will never be peace in Israel or the Middle East, ever. The US is not to blame for the problems.

I didn't see it but I think I know what it is about.

Here is a quote from a Palestinian:
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18248.htm


This is why the only solution I can only realistically hope that will work is a bi-national state eventually turning into a single state under the name "Palestine". This state will have to be under constant foreign occupation for a long time until the racism of both sides is at least lessened to the point like what the Shiites and Sunnis were under Saddam.

Unfortunately, Israel will not accept the one-state solution and I don't know if Palestine will accept it either since the tensions are too high.

The United States has a small part of the blame because they are adding fuel to the fire. Both sides are attacking each other and as long as the US keeps giving fuel to Israel, the fire will reach a point where it can not be stopped (if it hasn't passed that point already).

How would the US pulling support from Israel stop the violence? The Israeli's will just seek another source of support, and they will likely find it. There are hundreds of nationalized defense industries that would love to get into that market.

I agree that the US pulling support would not stop the violence but all that would be doing is shifting blame from one country to another.

I don't know exactly how this has worked but the US has rejecting things in the UN that would put restrictions or punishment on Israel so you could say that the US has part of the blame with that too.

Israel won several wars before major US support, and could surely do it again.

The role of international politics will do little to change the ingrained hate the cultures have for each other. It is not only a hate based on culture, it is hate based on religion, the worst kind.

They don't like us that much. We are a tool.

Plus they are now building most of their own weapons, from fighter planes and UAVs to machine guns and bullets.

They could probably win a war, but won't engage in one. Otherwise, Lebanon and the Palestinians would probably cease to exist at this point.

They basically re-engineered Frances premier fighter aircraft and made their own, they have the technology. They have made a number of really well known weapons on the general market. I have confidence they will survive most anything that their neighbors care to throw at them, with us or without us.

it's amazing what $30 billion can do.

Or $3 billion a year for the next ten years, which is what it actually was... meanwhile, Palestine's aid isn't exactly chump change:

Before the shit hit the fan...
Add the money from the Arabs and you're right... certainly not chump change for 2.8 million people.

i think once you give someone $30 billion dollars to strengthen their military, giving the people there killing $1 billion dollars in humanitarian aid doesn't really qualify as "balancing things out".

Man, it's $3 billion to their $1.2 billion. If you're going to stick with $30 billion then you have to estimate how much aid the Palestinians will be getting in the next ten years as well.

yea but it's a guaranteed 30 billion, for their military. does palestine have a humanitarian lay-away plan or was the money given just a one shot deal?

Nothing is guaranteed... shit happens.

Oh, c'mon, even if Israel and Palestine did get the same money in aid it still wouldn't compare.

It is like a suburban kid who still lives with his parents and doesn't have to pay rent, car insurance, etc, getting 15,000 year compared to someone that lives on their own getting 15,000 a year. Israel does not need this aid, Palestine does.

Yes, but it's a little harder to address their needs when their leaders steal the aid money and the locals loot their freely-given multi-million dollar food supply greenhouses for scrap parts.

I wonder what would happen if the Palestinians all swore off violence and sold off all their weapons? Think about it.

Now, think about what would happen if the Israelis swore off violence and sold off all their weapons.

If you have half a clue, that should tell you all you need to know about this conflict and about which side deserves your support.

What would happen if Palestinians swore off violence and sold off all their weapons? They'd be defenceless against Israeli aggression.

Dad was right. You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think.

That is a bad way of thinking.

If I go to a man's house, kill his children, rape his wife and then we get into a fight. The police come and use middy's logic of what will happen if I drop my weapons and what would happen if that man drops his weapons. They will obviously support me even though I was the one who invaded, murdered, and raped.

You can not determine who is "better" in the Palestine/Israel situation from what is happening currently because what both sides are doing now is a consequence of what happened before. The whole situation is way too complex to simplify it in the way middy is.