Identity
 

As I'm sure most of you've rather grasped by this point... I have some fairly major gender identity issues.

Got a problem with it, (coughmerccough) then you are welcome to not comment. This is little more than a vent anyway.

I dont know what my deal is. After reading (the first 14 of) this essay series, I've reflected a bit, stood back and thought for a second... And I'm almost certain that this isn't what I am. I'm not transexual. But yet, I'm not happy being a boy. Along with being bisexual, I think I've just, outright rejected the concept of binary gender. Maybe I'm just a whiney, hormonal teen. Maybe I'm just a who needs to because I'm a . Maybe I'm a brainwashed liberal hippy. I dont know what I am.
But I also don't know anyone else, anywhere, in the same position as I am. I have no support groups, I have no organizations. Even ignoring the fact that most straight AND gay people don't believe in bisexuality... I'd get chased out of any transgender support group for not being, well, transgender as such. There's no androgyne support organization, nothing. I'm on my own, and that's kind of a scary thought, especially for a teenager who's already something of a social outcast, being not only more mature than many of my peers (and modest, too) but also more political, more liberal, more hippy, and just plain old more weird than just about everyone I know.

Sorry, guys. Hate to pull the whole lame whiney emotional teen schtick on y'all. Just needed to get some of that out there.

That's how teenagers are supposed to feel.

Hey, thanks Flint, that's exactly what I needed to hear, that I'm just like everyone else.

Life isn't always easy; I'm sure glad I'm past dealing with the troubles of my teen years, and I didn't have half the problem you're faced with, Ibram. I haven't gotten to know you yet, but I certainly respect you as a person. So long as you are a decent person, nothing else really matters that much to me. We all need to vent at times, so don't feel bad about that. As to the rest, well, you certainly know that the Cellar has compassionate people with good advice to give; let me shut up and give them the chance to pass some along.

Don't try to pigeon-hole yourself. You are what you are. Be happy and comfortable with you - you are not just your sexuality. All the non-assholes here like you and value you.

See, spex, thats the thing - I am mostly happy with me, mostly comfortable with me, its just.... this bothers me, this whole gender thing. It's not my fault it's such a big deal to the rest of the world... but it's an EXTREME minority that agrees with me that gender is BS, so I need some way to rationalize my own stance, and to explain it/represent it to others.

Ibram, you'll figure it all out. It's what you believe in that counts for you.

I think I've mentioned it before, but you should read Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides. Though it is a work of fiction, it raises some very interesting gender identity issues.

Keep on keepin' on, Ib!

Some Native American peoples believe(d) in third and/or fourth genders.

Man inhabiting Woman, Woman inhabiting Man, and Neither. These people were fully respected in society. A manly woman hunted with the other men, a womanly man cooked and weaved, etc, with the women.

You are a beautiful and unique snowflake.

Or not.

Just be you, and don't worry about what it's called or where on some supposed curve you fall.

Figuring out how to be you is hard enough without having to do extensive research.

I can't really help you find the answer to your problem but hopefully I can help you not get deeper into a hole that I know all too well. It seems that you are feeling alone and betrayed by the world. Do not, repeat, do not, get into the mindset that it is you versus the world. This will only cause your problem to get worse and it can pull other areas in your life in a hole that is extremely hard to get out of.

I think the Greeks had that as well.

Middlesex deals with Greek ideologies, as well.

In time you will come to know many, many more people who are reflections of you... you'll gain friendships, intimacy, confidence, and most importantly, you'll find yourself in those reflections.

I am nowhere near the person I was at your age, and I didn't even have gender identity issues. At age 30, I think I finally figured out who I am and what I'm about.

You're never alone. Sometimes, you just need to reach out.

#1) I would certainly hope so - you are suppose to be.
#2) Thank God or whomever everyday for that - your individuality is what sets you apart from the rest. Think how boring it would be to be just like everyone else. No seperation, no individuality, no originality no new thoughts - Hell we'd all still think the world was flat.
You and your unique perspective has the capability to offer the rest of us new and different perspectives.

Then again you are a teen and might just grow out of it and end up like the rest of it - what do I know???

Anima/Animus.....
Anyway- why don't you like being a boy? Your obviously a bright good-looking kid...what about being a boy has got you down?

Are you really trying to reconcile how you feel with your "gender" and/or how others view you, seriously?
I have to say, with what you have written here, it does not seem like that is the core issue here.
It seems like you know that you are bi and secure with that and the issue is how others react to the fact that you are ok with being bi.
That is hard on some people and you are going to have to find your path to being ok with it.
The day you say "fuck-em" and mean it, you will be ok.
People will always judge you, no matter who you are, gay, straight, bi, mexican, white, tallshortredhairblablabla... fuck-em'.
Homophobia and gay cultural identity is an important issue for me and I was ostracized on campus at college from the groups fighting for acceptance and gay rights because I was straight. I thought that was pretty funny considering what they were fighting for.
Fuck-em', they obviously did not want what they said they wanted, they just wanted to make noise, the same is true for the group that treated you the way they did. That or it was envy, always a possibility.
Just be you, be fabulous and the truth will be shown to those who want to see it.

Confused? Bewildered? Feeling abnormal? You're a Rock Star.

Or tha' debil!
He's dreamy!

What beautiful advice folks have given! I can scarcely add to it, except to say ---

-- you know, life only gets better from here, my friend... only gets better.

Psychologist Erik Erikson defined eight specific stages in life. Age 11-18 is the period for the identity crisis.

And, strangely enough, the harder time you have of it now, the more certain you'll be of yourself later, in many ways. You'll have figured things out that other people will carry as baggage their whole life.

That doesn't mean you should drive directly into pain. It means you know you have to face a struggle. You're not alone; this is the point in your life when everyone is in that position. Believe in yourself: as painful as it might be, there's a point to it, there's an end to it, there's a transformation in which you come out the other end as a butterfly.

Other people envy you this struggle. To study yourself, to figure out what you like, who you like, who you are and how you'll get on with others... is a beautiful thing, part of what gives our lives deeper meaning.

Thanks, UT. I think that helped a bit... though I'm not sure there's, like, anything TO help. I'm not like, upset, or anything - just confused, and a bit frustrated. I'm fairly happy with myself - I just wish I had some kind of gender I could identify as.

Why? Who wants to be part of the herd?

What parts of the the female stereotype do you not identify with? What part of the male sterotypes? Which parts do you identify with?

What parts of the teen stereotype do you identify with? Do they outnumber those of the gender stereotypes?

How important are the gender identities?

How many posters here would you be able to tell the sex of without them telling you or making direct references to it?

And how many the age?

You clearly identify with the thinkers and the shit-stirrers, and I reckon you could do worse ;)

I'm about as girly as a fart with follow-through (;)), but I don't care. I tried to, for a short while, when I was a teenager, then I gave up.

You're doing just fine, imo.

From your preceding posts, here and elsewhere, I'm not thinking your issue is really about gender identity. You haven't said anything indicating a particular discomfort or dislike of your manly bits, right?

You're also under some stress related to your relationship with Caro, and while you've indicated that you're feeling pretty much bi, you've not indicated that you've acted on that, although I certainly understand that any such opportunities would be very limited in Asia, because of the different cultural mores.

Just be you, don't try to be someone else's conceptualization of who you should be.

He must dislike his manly bits, he's been trying to yank them off for years

XD nice bruce.

Wolf: I know I'm bi - that's not an issue. Sexually, I'm happy being a boy. The thing is, physical/genetic sex does not equal gender. Which is really where the problem comes from - the prevailing culture's insistence on a binary, sex=gender culture. Buuut that's a whole 'nother matter...
But anyway, if you think the issue is not about gender identity, what do you think the issue is, doc?

Do you want to be a woman, do you want to be neuter? if the answer to both is "no," you're not having a gender identity crisis ... you're having an identity crisis.

You like being a boy, you have boy parts, you're a boy. Check "M" on the forms, and move on.

Demanding a label doesn't help understand anything, including yourself, any better.

Ride it out.

Most importantly, celebrate yourself.

This is where he says he's not happy being a boy. I'm just still trying to ask why. What's the drawback?
Having issues with archetypal gender based sterotypes is very different from not liking your own gender.
I understand identity crisis as a completely natural and normal event. As well as bi tendencies. I'm just trying to figure out why he's not happy with what he has? Not that there's anything wrong with that either.
Why do you not like being a boy? Very straightforward question.

Our society is over-balanced towards the masculine attributes, and has been for a long time. Long enough for our cultural memory to have almost forgotten what balance between the sexes feels like.

The reign of male-dominated society doesn't present a picture of male identity that some people feel comfortable with. The struggle of a sensitive boy, passing into manhood, is how to deal with the negative identity associated with their gender. This is my theory.

Read: Masturbate. A lot.

Ok, I take back anything nasty and abusive that I have said to you in the past and make a public apology for anything "homophobic" I said to you. I have my own issues to deal with on the issue. Any advice I could make or comment would be ignored anyway. Good luck.

Thats mighty big of you Merc - I'm proud of you. See Ibby, you are already making the world a kinder gentler place.

That's awesome, Merc.

Thanks, merc. I still hate you - but for that comment there, I can't help but respect you all the more.


I think flint's got at least one aspect of the matter there - I hate all the masculine stereotypes, and i hate what I'm expected to be for being a dude. That's not all of the problem, but that's a large part of it, I think.

I think the biggest thing is that i simply don't identify as male, plain and simple.

There's nothing wrong with that; just identify as yourself.

More likely you don't identify with what you see as male stereotype. Maybe it's your perception of what male is, that's askew.
Hating your father and not wanting to be like him does not mean rejecting male. Not all males are like him. There is no quintessential, to everyone, male.

Ok fuck the rest of you... this is between Ibram and me...

Again, I am sorry for anything I said that night. I had to much to drink and I was fucked up and should not have said what I said. I regret it. I still think you have much to learn because you are a teen and have no world experience. But let's not go there now. Again, good luck and I hope you figure it out.

I have family members who are gay and bi. I have no ill feelings toward them. I have no ill feelings toward you and never have had bad feelings toward you because you are who you are sexually. Let's drop the differences we have concerning parenting and sexuality and agree to disagree on political issues. I accpet the fact that you have your views based on your world experience, you must accept the fact that I have my views based on my world experience. I will not personally fuck with you, but I will fuck with your positions on issues, and you can do the same. Lets call it a truce and not fuck with each other on a personal level, only on our divergent views and experience of the world.

What do you say?

The problem is that you are still surrounded by people who can't do anything but stereotypes, Ibram. You may notice a general sense of confusion here over these "masculine stereotypes" you keep mentioning, and this is because they just don't exist in the real world. They only seem like they're everywhere because you're surrounded by idiots. Just hang in there until you get to college. Trust me, it will get better so fast your head will spin.

Well said Merc !!

Totally agreed.

Though I was really just being snarky, not angry or vengeful, putting those quotes in there. You've shaped up, big-time. I still do hate you, but I don't hold a vendetta against you just for that comment (well, string of comments). If thats the worst thing anybody says to me over my sexuality I think I come out pretty much ahead. I don't like you, but I can totally live with you, now. Now you're just an old conservative fogey who I don't agree with on most issues... rather than a total fucking bastard who's more of a troll than a valid poster.

You aren't half bad, now. I can live with a truce.

Spoken like a true teen - very good Ibby and Merc -
next is UG & tw

Hate is a pretty powerful word. Disagree would be more appropriate IMHO. People kill due to hate. They oppress. They hang. They burn. They stab. They shoot. They draw and quarter. They rape. They inprison. They detain. They decapitate.

I have never done such things. How about we just disagree?

I toss about the word hate altogether too much, maybe. I hate a lot of things - but not like, utterly LOATHE, just dislike. Hate is a much more colourful word, and if there's anything I like in language, it's colour.

Nothing personal, merc. You're now at the level at which I hate Dan Quale, Adult Contemporary, or Kevin Bacon... not the level at which I hate George Bush, Emo, or Leo DiCaprio.
Don't worry, when I say I hate you, I mean it in the nicest possible way.

Nameste. I shall move on from here.

I don't hate you Merc. ;) Feel better now?

I posted this because I had to tell lj that he's funny today too.

I figured I might as well get all those types of things out at once.

Sorry for messing with your thread Ib. I just sort of figured most of the good advice has already been given and I don't have anything much worthwhile to add. Only that I reckon you're just fairly typical of people your age with regard to figuring out who you are. You'll get it straight sooner or later. If you don't, the world's going to kick your arse. Hmmm...probably the sooner the better in that case. ;)

:p

Alright. Forget it.......

I think gender roles are more fluid than most people realize. I would encourage less angst and more acceptance for you right now, keeping in mind that things will probably become clearer later.

Right on target Cloud. Ibby, you will be making your own way in the world soon enough. You'll see guys living their lives uninhibited by their families expectations. Get comfortable with the idea that time will resolve a lot of what you're feeling. good luck... and read the sig down below.

Hmmm...I didn't even see that joke when I wrote it. lol

It's amazing how I can be funny even when I'm not trying to be.

Someone please tell lj. lol

I have no idea if this applies to you, Ib, but I've had an issue over many years of feeling like I had no one to identify with. It wasn't so much that I am uncomfortable in my own ideas/skin/personality, but that I have no one to... appreciate, pattern myself after, idealize, idolize. A lot of people have told me to "go ahead, be yourself," but once in a while it would be nice to see a fellow traveller. Sometimes it's lonely being yourself.

- Pie

I certainly have people to "appreciate, pattern myself after, idealize, idolize".

Bowie, Rufus, Bolan, Ziggy, Jagger... So many rock stars to idolize.

I'm going to pretty much agree with what other people have said -- especially in high school, it's TOUGH to not fit into an expected role. No one in that situation is really taking the time to get to know people other than their close friends, and a lot of kids at your age haven't even learned to see people as three-dimensional, full-color characters yet. Later in life you will find more people willing to just accept you as who you are.

As for the bi thing, it is sometimes tough to hear the whole "in denial" stereotype, but honestly I think that being able to appreciate twice as much awesome sexiness probably more than makes up for it. :D

I can understand the distrust of homosexuals against people who say they are bi. It's more than just "make up your mind" --it's more of a or "have your cake an eat it too"--it's that bis are seen as having all the advantages (e.g., more partners to choose from); and none of the disadvantages, i.e., being hated. And they may have a point.

But really--it's ridiculous to say out of spite that there's "no such thing" as bisexual. I have considered myself bisexual since puberty, and I can assure you, there are such things. Er, people.

It goes back to what I said before--sexuality is more fluid than most people are willing to acknowledge, either in themselves or others. There are plenty of "in-between" gender roles and experiments that people can experience, sometimes happily, other times not. Getting too caught up on exactly where you fit on the girl-boy scale can impact one's life negatively.

This is not to belittle those people who truly struggle with transgender issues. That has got to me one of the most debilitating and painful personal issues I can imagine.

High school-age is rough. You're expected to fit in to one or another of the crowds/cliches/stereotypes and when you don't , you're pretty much an outcast. The good news is that it will eventually be over.

Best advice I can give is what others have said...be your own biggest fan, forget 'belonging', don't worry about identifying with anyone and celebrate your individuality and unique style.

Be avant-garde, start your own group, be the innovator, the leader, and the trend-setter. The more confidence you have in yourself and the more secure you are in your self-knowledge, the more people will gravitate towards you and want to identify with YOU.

It's ok to be alone, out in front of the pack, instead of in the middle...just one of the crowd. :)

Stormie

So when you look at these singers, do you think of them as "men" or something else?

Good observation Clod.

well ZIGGY i certainly don't think of as a man...


The rest? Gods, all of them. More than us mere mortals.


And why does it matter what I identify THEM as being? I really like my dog, Newton. I identify him as a dog. Does that mean that by extension, I should identify as a dog?

Also, I idolize people like, say, joan jett, or siouxie sioux, or mo tucker. I wish I could be as badass as joan, or as rad and chill as mo. That doesn't mean I identify as a girl, either.

You really like your dog, sure. But you don't match him in any significant ways. The goal here is you're trying to really like yourself for who you are, and you've mentioned wanting support from people like you. So the first step would be trying to identify other people like you. That is, people who feel the way you do about gender who also happen to have a penis. They're definitely out there.

Ibram- this is from me and my husband- who is not on the cellar.....
Please don't take yourself so seriously in your youth, prioritize, and use condoms.
That is all.