Stuff I don't know
 

And maybe y'all do.


Why does syncopation work? Flint? Anybody?

I'd be glad to discuss my understanding of syncopation. First of all, syncopation is a term I haven't used in years, as it's a general term used to describe a more specific set of techniques I employ (as a drummer). But it does present an interesting question.

The short answer is: syncopation creates musical interest, by generating small instances of tension between the notes.

You asked why it works, and the answer to that is: because it sounds good. Completely subjective, I know, but that's "why" any art "works" - it is deemed by the listener/viewer/experiencer to have aesthetically pleasing qualities. Naturally, I will address how syncopation works.

Most syncopation in popular music is achieved through beat displacement. The beat being the underlying structure upon which notes are placed.

Playing "on top" of the beat is metronomic (technically perfect) time. A musician who plays "on top" of the beat can "bury the click" - the click track being an electronic metronome used in the recording studio to synchronyze the various parts of a composition. If all of the notes produced by one instrument are "on top" of the beat, there is no syncopation in the pattern. However, if other instruments are displacing beats, there can be syncopation between the instruments.

A common beat displacement is to play "behind" the beat. Motown drummers (and those whom they influenced, such as the late John Bonham of Led Zeppelin) played the backbeat of the snare "behind" the beat, that is to say, they slightly delayed striking the snare. This is how you establish a "groove" - with these displacements. Back to the subjective quality of aesthetics, the listener expects to hear a certain beat placement, but you delay the gratification, creating that small pocket of tension, or musical interest. This is especially effective when other instruments are playing "on top" of, or in some other orientation to, the beat.

Enough of that. A more advanced technique for syncopation is polyrhythm. That is to say, more than one time signature is superimposed within a pattern. For example: within the same space that one pattern strikes out eight notes, another strikes six. Obviously, the notes aren't going to be happening at the same time. That's polyrhythm. Heard more often in jazz, see: the late Elvin Jones, legendary Coltrane drummer. Drummers pride themselves on creating polyrhythm between different limbs, thus establishing syncopation between different parts of their own body!

...

I'll leave it at that. If anyone displays the slightest interest in any of this, I could go on for days.

i'm slightly interested. this seems like something you would do without knowing you're doing it......but when you lay it all out like that...it makes it so...clinical. and lame.

I don't consciously know what I'm doing, perhaps most of the time during a live playing situation, but, I'll be doing things that I practiced while knowing exactly what I was practicing. Personally, I am of the school that believe music should "breathe" ... the time should be organic. Still, you have to know what you're doing, or you're just making noise. The tools you have learned become part of your vocabulary, to be used expressively.

I usually don't notice the drumming. The exception to that is Rush. What does that guy do that's different, and what do you call that?

Chops.

Interesting concepts. Makes it more scientific and easy to understand. Thanks.

Oooh...that was really interesting. That kind of explains what it is I'm hearing when I listen to jazz....why it sounds so fundamentally different.

Finally an explanation that works for me. Thanks Flint!

For $370 you can try it with your own electronic drum kit.

ha ha ha ... Chops is right.

There are a few more items of note, regarding Neil Peart. Number one, for the purposes of this discussion I should point out that he plays "on top" of the beat. So, how can he be syncopated? I'll get to that shortly.

Number two, he writes the lyrics. He then "formats" the lyrics (frames them, emphasizes them) with his drum parts. You might not be conscious of all the editorial decisions he is making, but rest assured he is not just going crazy.

Number three, Rush plays in a hodge-podge of time signatures, mostly written by Lifeson and Lee. Neil is able to play something incredible regardless of whether the composition calls for odd time, or for the whole thing to shift dramatically at the drop of a hat. It's a trio, the components are limited to what three people can do, so the perception of the drumming is really coming from a combination of efforts.

…

Now, a few more thoughts I had on syncopation. Since, apparently, people are actually reading this.

How can Neil Peart or Stewart Copeland (Police) be so syncopated while sitting right "on top" of the beat? A big part of this is playing accents at a smaller subdivision than the main drive of the song. I will explain that:

Most popular music (rock, pop, rap, etc.) operates in 4/4 time, that is to say each measure (or bar) has 4 notes that occupy one-fourth of the measure. Nice and clean, it’s divided into equally spaced parts, called quarter notes. The basic "thump/whack" beat (think AC/DC) has the bass drum hitting the 1 and the 3 (the first and third quarter note), the snare hitting the 2 and the 4 (known as the backbeat).

In the basic "rock" beat (think Ringo Starr or Creedence Clearwater Revival), the high-hat taps out 8th notes; that is to say notes that occur twice as often as quarter notes. Here’s an example of 8th notes:

The "equal spacing" is defined by 8th notes:

Now consider 16th notes, which occur twice as often as 8th notes. 16th notes are the tom part from "Wipeout" or the high-hat part from the "Shaft" theme. The tempo isn’t necessarily faster, the drummer is just playing smaller subdivisions.

Back to syncopation. If you can imagine a "framework" of subdivisions, wherein the most common subdivisions comprise the familiar pattern of the song (remember, the standard rock beat operates primarily on 8th notes, with accented quarter notes), the drummer has the option to accent any other subdivision in the course of constructing a syncopated pattern. Stewart Copeland plays his frenetic high-hat embellishments on a framework of 16th notes, on top of an 8th note pattern.

Neil Peart plays tom fills that alternate between 16th notes and 24th notes, or 8th note triplets. That is to say, on the highest tom, he plays four 16th notes, on the next tom, he plays six notes that exactly occupy the space of those four 16th notes. As he goes down the toms, it sounds as though his fill is speeding up and slowing down (it’s not). Confusing?

Triplets are groups of three notes that occupy the space of one of the standard subdivisions. Triplets are another common technique to achieve syncopation, while technically staying "on top" of the beat. But the triplets don’t have to be a repeating part of the pattern, you can pick one at random for a crazy syncopated accent. Furthermore, as triplets are three-note groups that occupy a certain space, there are quintuplets etc.

By now, you may be thinking "It’s all just math?" … Yes. It’s all just math. This is why they call Neil Peart "The Professor" …

One more item of note, regarding Neil Peart: consider that he penned the lyrics to the song Subdivisions (about subdivisions in society, and geographical subdivisions), and then played the drum parts to the song, utilizing various musical subdivisions, thus acting out parts of an extremely involved metaphor.

One more item of note, regarding Stewart Copeland: He didn’t really get along with Sting, as a person. Yet they were the rhythm section of a musical trio. This personal tension often resulted in parts that didn’t really "fit" between the bass and drums; thus creating the syncopation that made their music sound so exciting.

Great job, Flint. This is very interesting and informative.

I feel like I am back in my drum lessons when I was 10! I love it! I used to love to sit and listen to my drum teacher talk to me about this stuff and then go home and drive my parents nuts trying to get it right.

I hope my son gets as excited when he picks up an instrument and then feels this great reading a discussion about it so many years later.

Duuu-uh!

That's why I asked! Thanks for the helpful information. I did know what it was, technically. I did know why it worked, technically (cause it grooves, man). But that was not a very satisfying answer. Much help from you, many thanks.

what a great thread, Flint, BigV!

Heeeey... wait a minute. If none of us knows anything about it, how do we know he's not lying to us, to protect the great Syncopation Secret Conspiracy of the Secret Syncopation Secret Society?

Just kidding, good job Flint.

Hey Flint, just a question...

What do you think of Carl Palmer?

Something else I don't know... how do those foaming hand soap dispensers aerate the liquid soap?

Like this, apparently.

Heh.

Here's another explanation.

Stuff be heavier than tha' water?

Why do hot chicks like greasy assholes?

I suppose they find that lubrication helps.

He's strong, a beast. Monsterous single-stroke chops, always pushing the beat.

I have a b00tleg DVD of the "Carl Palmer" band, which is an instrumental trio of Palmer and two young, unknown guys with crazy chops. They play in high gear the whole time. Palmer is one of these guys that appearantly doesn't age like regular humans.

Palmer has a whole kit made of Paiste cymbal alloy! Can you imagine how much those bass drums weigh?

My mom worships Palmer, and in fact claims that he's better than peart.
I aaaalmost agree with her, there, but... peart's better by a small but definite margin.

Stuff I don't know:

Why am I sometimes overcome with a overwhelming sense of tiredness in the mid afternoon? It's like I've been drugged. I can't keep my eyes open. This happens once or twice a week, around 1 or 2 or so. It lasts for about 15-20 minutes. The heavy energy sapping tiredness is so powerful, I almost fall asleep at my desk sometimes. I have been startled awake before. It's frightening.

Aha, so this hypnosis stuff is starting to work._:D__BigV, could there be a correlation to your lunch (types of food and/or resting) or maybe some kind of crash after some caffeine (if you drink tea or coffee)?

One of the things that really impresses me about Carl Palmer is that he does all that with a marching-type grip for his left stick, as opposed to a matched grip. You can see it in both Flint's pic and Ibram's clip.

lots-o-syncopation here:

You eat too many carbs. Ogg need meat diet.

Thanks, Griff. I will make some more controlled observations.

I wonder about the mechanism, the biology of it. It would be great to be able to setup that tiredness just at bedtime. I imagine it would be very restful.

I'm thinking heartbeat should have something to do with it, too? Afterall, isn't a heartbeat a kind of polyrhythm?

Are you pregnant? Happened to me every day at work when I was. I'd put my head down on my desk and take a little nap. Seriously. My boss would tell anyone who walked by that I was 'incubating'.

For real though, you should give the book "YOU, On a Diet" a browsing. It's not a 'diet' book so much as a biology lesson about how our digestive system works in concert with our brains through hormonal signals, and how the food we put into us affects that balance.

I suspect, like Griff, that your current levels of stress combined with less than ideal diet is giving you that 1:00 slump. This book does a wonderful job explaining the hormones and cycles that they go through depending on your emotions/stress/sleep/diet and how your waist and energy levels are thusly affected.

It's backed by the Discovery channel, and I personally found nothing to question in it. I am in the process of trying to get the whole family on a better diet using the stuff I learned in it.

Good luck!

Hmmm... I'm betting that isn't recommended.

maybe there was a Mexican in the woodpile?

This quote is from here.

The article discusses how a very prominent copyright attorney, Patry, praises a recent court decision. I just don't follow this paragraph. Could someone please explain to me what he means? See the article for a fuller context.

Thanks in advance.

nope - looks like lawyer [talk outta both sides of their mouths]speak.

He's saying that it's BS that the RIAA can hire an investigator to download a song the same way a pirate would and have that be proof that there is copyright infringement. The RIAA asked the investigator to download the songs, which means the investigator has been authorized to do it. Therefore it can't be infringement.

Perfect.

Thank you sir. That makes sense now. Thank you.

What does a bailiff do?

They provide comic relief for the judge.

Oh, wait...been watching too many TV court shows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailiff

Bailiff (from Late Latin bajulivus, adjectival form of bajulus) is a governor or custodian (cf. bail); a legal officer to whom some degree of authority, care or jurisdiction is committed. Bailiffs are of various kinds and their offices and duties vary greatly.

While many in the United States use the word bailiff colloquially to refer to an officer providing court security, few such officers are actually bailiffs. More often, these officers are called sheriff's deputies, marshals, or court officers. The terminology varies among (and sometimes within) the several states.

Whatever the name used, the agency providing court security is often charged with serving legal process and seizing and selling property (e.g., replevin or foreclosure). In some cases, the duties are separated between agencies in a given jurisdiction. For instance, a court officer may provide courtroom security in a jurisdiction where a sheriff handles service of process and seizures.

The judge has a bailiff. Goldfinger had Oddjob.

Although Rush is the most perfect example I think you can find clear drumming in these other bands. A couple favorites of mine are :The Perfect Circle,Soundgarden and The Smashing Pumpkins.

I always thought Animal (of the Muppets) was a pretty good drummer....he had the Mick Fleetwood attitude.

oh yeah... I forgot about him!! ( animal that is)

heh heh good call

oh and stellar good artists all in Fleetwood :)





stuff I don't know How'd they get the muppet to move so fast?

sky--I love you.


My first husband was a drummer. sexiest thing i ever saw.

(all apologies to you sexy beast bassists out there!!)

:bass:

stuff I don't know.: Why? Unless you find my stupidity endearing then I accept! :joylove: and many lovely returns too! xo


I only have met guitarists soI don't know how is a drummer personality is? Is the sexy part the subjective quality? As some people find quitarists sexy? ( I don't) ( I find them my total opposite so why I attract them I have no idea)

or maybe he was just quite literally sex on a stick?

yeah, probably

No doubt the natural reference to sexy clarinetists simply slipped your mind. :angel:

Do drummers like Blue Man Group and Stomp performances, or is there an unbearable professional compromise going on of which the rest of us are unaware?

Oooooooo, yes! the clarinetist! Very sexy beasts---orally fixated no doubt
:D

Umm, not so much.

Here's something I don't know: Why the hell would somebody buy an SUV and then mince along at 3MPH over a road that's being resurfaced?

I'm a drummer. I've only seen DVDs of these guys at Fry's, and I thought they were neat.

Cool gadgets; and group drumming doesn't need ultra-coordinated supermen, because you've got all these different brains controlling all these different arms and legs and instruments. All it takes is practice to get down the together-ness. Hours and hours of practice.

Although, drummers may prefer more technically-oriented group performances, like the Hip Pickles:



I read a recent article about the Blue Man Group in Modern Drummer. They talked about recruiting new Blue Men, and the options were either to #1 recruit someone with theater experience who could be taught to drum, or #2 to recruit someone with drumming experience who could be taught to act. Both types of recruits have been successful, in that type of "performance art" act.

__________________

Now, I have a question:

Why is the amount that an audio amplifier boosts a signal refered to as "Volume" ???

The "Volume" of what? This doesn't make sense with what the term "Volume" means in other contexts.

Is it because of the volume of air displaced by the speaker cone? You couldn't know that at the amp, because it depends on the frequencies in the signal; bass frequencies having a higher "volume" than tiny tweeter frequencies. Also depends on the ability of the driver to reproduce those frequencies. And the efficiency of the driver. etc.

Could it refer to the "volume" of tubes or something in some archaic technology?

It's the "volume" of graph paper under the curve when you chart the sound waves.

It certainly is more volume of air, and I guess RMS power, because it doesn't matter if it's adding volume of bass or trebly frequencies, it's adding volume of either it encounters.

I bought an olde powere ampe and it doesn't have any attenuation knob! It can only amplify and never lower volume!

too much coffee throughout the day and not enough H2O? Circadian rhythms? Too much "night activity"? Could it be that 32 bar of cadbury fruit and nut chocolate you always eat at 2:30?

Hello again. I don't know how to extract the audio from a DVD to an mp3 file on my computer. I use iTunes with satisfactory success to rip my cds to mp3, but this didn't work for a recent acquisition of a Rick Wakeman audio DVD. There are other examples of audio on DVD that I'd like to have grace my iTunes library too, but.. I'm stuck. Any help would be appreciated.

TIA

What to make for dinner.

I have: fresh chicken breasts 6oz ea; broccoli in abundance; carrots; cheese, shredded and deli-sliced; half an onion; a single baked-potato size potato; whipped cream cheese; 6 eggs; package of bacon; lemon juice; lime juice; frozen corn; frozen peas; frozen hamburger patties; fresh garlic; scallions; dried pasta, elbow macaroni size; dried pasta, angel hair size; bread crumbs; tomato paste; sun-dried tomatoes; canned diced tomatoes; spaghetti sauce in a jar; Marie's "light" blue cheese dressing; "buffalo" sauce; half-n-half; vinegar; balsamic vinegar; malt vinegar; half a loaf of whole wheat bread; half jar of homemade blueberry jam from xoB; many spices, staples.

It must serve two

oh and mushrooms, i have fresh mushrooms