The Poly Path So Far
 

Have you ever loved someone so much that you cringe when they are interested in someone else, and cringe when they aren’t? Have you ever put someone else’s happiness so far above your own that, when they tell you they love someone else, you don’t actually want to puke your guts out? How might you feel if your spouse was depressed about a relationship that just can’t work, only it isn’t yours?

Well, all of this and more has been my lot these past eight months since Selene and I embarked on the polyamory path for the third time in our 13 years together. Understand that what I write here is strictly based upon *my* experiences and points of view. If Selene were to write it, I assure you that it would not only come across differently, but possibly entirely contradictorially. Each of us experiences this path from our own point of view, and sometimes it seems like we aren’t experiencing the same events at all. Nevertheless, I’m going to talk a little bit about things as I see them. Selene might well come along and say something entirely different, as is her right. Even if she does, it doesn't make me a provericator...it just means that we each feel what we feel and see things as we each see them.

For the first six months of this current poly incarnation, I sat on the sidelines, fully imbued with the power to share in relationships with women who weren’t my wife, but apparently powerless to make it happen. In all fairness, I didn’t really *try*. Most of the relationships in my life started because a lady hunted me down and captured me. I never really knew the fine art of pursuit and conquest, preferring to simply let things occur as they will. I have since discovered that this is a certain path to envy and misery, and so I’ve begun to be more proactive about it. By no means am I good at it, nor am I terribly dynamic in my efforts, but I’m getting a bit more bold.

All relationships are difficult at best, whether one is monogamous or polyamorous. Yet, I cannot say that polyamory is inherently *more* difficult than was monogamy; at least, not for Selene and me. The issues are different, but there are issues. There have always been issues, and there always will be issues. What is strikingly different when one is pursuing polyamory is the amount of additional information and experience that has to be processed, whether it be between the primary couple, or derived and experienced from the relationships each has with others. Ideally, what we experience informs and enlightens us in some way, and we can grow both as individuals, and as a couple. This may occur for me, if I can sort out the crap in my head well enough to see the lesson through the debris.

Another strikingly inconvenient factor in all of this is the sheer amount of time it takes out of the mundane life of a couple to be with other people. By the time I’ve spent time with a girlfriend, and Selene has spent time with a boyfriend - seldom on the same nights or for the same lengths of time - the household chores and other attendant mundane burdens have gone untended beyond all reason, requiring an active plan to wrestle the offending tasks into submission...at least until we’ve once again squandered our discretionary time, and the cycle has begun once again. This isn't even the worst part of it...try figuring out how one spouse is supposed to be somewhere else while the other is trysting at home. Not easy...not fun...and definitely not productive in the classic sense.

Seldom are things ideal. I know by now that, were I describing my perfect poly scenario, it wouldn’t be the one I’m pursuing now. I get easily out of balance as things ebb and flow on a near daily basis. I become envious of my mate’s successes and frustrated with my own lack thereof. At the same time, I swing internally from high to low based on who I’m seeing and how that is going. Two weeks ago (when I actually started writing this treatise), I was feeling damn good about it all. I had been spending a good deal of quality time with a beautiful young woman and all the little signs were pointing towards good stuff. In the intervening time since our first dates and daily phone conversations, the dynamic has changed quite drastically, leaving me now feeling a bit awkward and unsure of how to further pursue that relationship, which seems to be headed to platonic friendship. Had the change occurred because of something being different between she and I, it would be easy enough to reconcile, but in fact, the dynamic seems to have changed because of other factors, namely, her efforts to manage her own somewhat rocky marriage and an apparently imperative need for her and her spouse to relocate to New Mexico. Since all responsible polyamorists should tend their primary relationships first and foremost, it can bring otherwise burgeoning outside couplings to a near screeching halt. As I had sort of put all my eggs in one basket (I could make a really naughty pun on that first part of this sentence, but I shan’t), I’ve found myself again on the sidelines these past couple of weeks, and once again experiencing negative feelings about all of this.

It would be foolish to believe that things should or could be better, though. In the poly lifestyle, it is relatively rare to encounter long term, stable secondary relationships. When they do occur, they often are the impetus for dissolution of previously primary relationships, or the marginalization of those pairings. Similarly, it is rare for male polyamorists to have a fraction of the opportunities that females have. Although it sounds stereotypical to say it, most women who might be interested in an alternate relationship are looking for commitment and permanence, whether they be single or married. Guys, on the other hand, are dogs, and happy to take an offered opportunity, whether they are married, single, wanting a permanent mate, or just some fun. Nevertheless, being realistic about the negative aspects of polyamory requires one to be prepared for less than optimal situations, and so I am. It requires a hell of a lot of fortitude, and the power to refuse to chuck it all and just go start over. But such thoughts do surface from time to time, despite my best efforts to subdue them. Ultimately, an ability to see the big picture is crucial, and right now, my picture frame is rather too small for the job. Clinging to the fact that Selene and I love each other first and foremost is what allows me to continue at all.

I’m at a bit of a crossroads, then, and it is an intersection with which I expect to become intimately familiar as time goes by. While I had hoped to be able to settle on the one lass as a somewhat regular and entirely satisfactory poly partner, it now appears that her availability is going to be rather too limited for me to be comfortable with the increasingly spare time we can spend together, not to mention that I've become rather unclear as to how she views our relationship. As such, I now find myself beginning to move to other opportunities lest I become terminally bitter and envious of my wife’s rampant popularity. Make no mistake...envy is the demon in all of this. It isn’t jealousy, it isn’t feeling cheated on...it is pure and simple envy over the fact that, not only am I *not* on an extramarital par with my wife, I’m not even on the same golf course. She is Tiger Woods - I have just sliced into the woods along the fairway.

Time to grow up and learn to focus on what is good. Time to bind to my wife, trust in myself, and head forth to philander with new energy and hope. I’ll let you know how that works out.

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din.
I'd let ya buttfuck me if it would help, but I don't think I'm what you're looking for.
Gotta reread and think plenty, before I say more.

Silver Lined Analogy
 

In business, it's often difficult for both people comprising a couple to have full careers and still have time for each other. A compromise is often reached in which one career becomes secondary to the other. Their home life then revolves around the person with the primary career. This includes budget, location, social life ... etc. It often starts out centered on the one who's career brings in the most income; but, need not continue that way indefinitely. Before the person with the secondary career becomes obsolete in their profession, the couple can agree to exchange roles and live within the new structure it brings to their lives. Neither one of them may be as successful in business as they could have been had both fully pursued their individual careers; however, they may have created the circumstances necessary to be a successful couple.

Perhaps you and your wife can reach an understanding with regard to time management so that one predominantly pursues polyamory while the other supports the household. Then the roles can be reversed. In the business analogy, the interval between reversals might be measured in years. For polyamory, it could be measured in weeks or months (you'd have to find a comfort zone that you can both live with). Once you've worked it out to where you are both getting about the same amount of time to pursue your interest(s), the shear number of relationships each of you have will be of less significance. It's still quality over quantity and the one with fewer relationships could very well end up being the more content. Either way, wouldn't it be nice to know that you get to go back home to someone who, by mutual agreement, has been looking after the homestead? Wouldn't you be more comfortable reciprocating if it were for a specified period of time (so you could see the light at the end of the tunnel)? Third parties who aren't a threat to your marriage should be accommodating. :2cents:

No I couldn't. I would worry about diseases too much. Even if I could go through with it with another woman, I would wonder worry who my wife has been with. I know there is safe sex, but for me sex with a condom is about 1/100 as enjoyable as sex without a condom. No judgment here, just saying I couldn't.

Good luck

A thoughtful and thoroughgoing response, but the proffered situation is not viable in our case. There is no intent on anyone's part to spend any length of time without alternative partners. In other words, ain't gonna happen, except by happenstance. The marriage/business partnership will either survive or not, and the mundane chores will have to be dealt with in whatever way they can be. At present, all signs point to everything being secondary to the pursuit of polyamory. This will change once we each settle on more or less consistent partners, but right now, there's a lot of jumble.

I don't know what to tell you Elspode. I know how you feel though. We have not done much as a poly couple, but that is mainly because we don't know any other couples or singles that believe the same way we do. Add to that we don't really have time to build a new relationship, and it just doesn't really happen.

I wish there was a simple solution to everything, but I fear there will never be anything serious when it comes to romance. I do wish you all the luck in the world. I hope you find someone too so that you can kick that envy in the teeth. Envy can be very dangerous to your health.

I think that the women just don't realize what a great guy you are, and as soon as word gets out you will be beating them off with sticks! :D I will be sending good vibes your way in the meantime. :comfort:

Are you and selene having any sex with each other?

Is that a rude question...?

Human nature being what it is, females will always have more opportunities than males, given equal exposure. That grows by at least an order of magnitude with attractive females. Maintaining an equal balance, in a poly situation, requires an active, hands on(no pun), approach.

If the male is a more laid back type, then aggressive pursuit becomes work, and lack of it creates imbalance.... catch 22.

If the female has to curb her enthusiasm to maintain balance, rather than enjoying spontaneity, it becomes work.... catch 22.

So given the myriad of possible personality combinations possible in one couple and the variety of changing circumstances they'll likely find themselves in, parity is impossible.

Having established the chance of parity is slim to none, a successful poly relationship depends entirely on attitudes and feelings.
Is it really what you want... or are you trying to convince yourself it's what you should want, because it's what your partner wants?
What happens if one partner reaches the point where they say, it seemed like a good idea at the time?

Seems to me, if it's the pursuit of validation of oneself as desirable, than flirting and sexual tension should suffice.
If it's the pursuit of romance, that's always going to put the marriage/partnership at risk.
If it's the pursuit of sex, then it's just a risky hobby that could be replaced with skydiving, free climbing, or sword swallowing.

For you to just accept that her dance card will always be full while you're mowing the lawn or changing the oil in the car, takes an attitude that is so unnatural I can't comprehend it. I don't think you can either.
I suppose there will be some that accuse me of being insecure and selfish because I can't contemplate such an arrangement.

I've seen plenty of post-menopausal females that have said, I don't care what you do as long a you leave me alone and don't rub my nose in it. However, I've never seen that in males, especially ones that truly loved their partner.

I wish I had a solution, short of buying a couple of teens from the Far East, but it sounds like a no win situation to me.

Not here, it isn't, and yes...more than we've had in a long time, actually. :)

You are a truly insightful and contemplative person, my friend. And yeah, it does, in fact, require a major realignment of my head and guts to be on this path. Its damn difficult, but the rewards are pretty nice. Few and far between, but nice when they occur. But in saying that, I'm only talking about the extramarital goodies. There are benefits within the marriage that tend to outweigh the gut churning stuff for me. First and foremost, we are largely much more attentive to each other now than we have been in years. Second, and as I note above to Jinx, we have more sex with each other than we have in years. Sexual behavior tends to spawn more sexual behavior, to put it bluntly...even within our marriage.

I'm sure that what I wrote to start this thread comes off as whining, but keep in mind what I always say about much of what I write here: I use this forum to clear my head out, to "verbalize", as it were, things for myself as much as Cellarites. Honestly, how many people here give a damn about my bizarre lifestyle? Few, I'm sure...but the people here who I consider my friends, even confidantes, make it more than a worthwhile exercise for me to pour it all forth.

Right now I have a beautiful wife, a beautiful girlfriend who is currently running a bit chilly, but who still came to see me play tonight and gave me lovely soft kisses, and a couple of other intriguing prospects on the launch pad. If I can just stop worrying about the numbers game, I ought to be in the tall cotton.

Everything is a process. So is polyamory. And speaking of processes...Iggy, come spend a weekend in KC! :D

Women can drive you to drink plenty.

Not at all, remember Elspode's opening paragraph:

This certainly raised a red flag for me in that his description could be interpreted as being not just of love; but, of additional dependence (e.g. insecurity, mother figure, female domination ... etc.). This could easily give rise to viewing his attitude as so [/i]unnatural[/i] that one might have difficulty comprehending it.

Later; however, Elspode makes this pertinent statement:

This leads me to believe that this is not so much an unnatural situation as a non-conventional approach to keeping the primary relationship worthwhile.

Even though Elspode has said:

The indicators are that the pursuit of polyamory is actually a means to improving his relationship with Selene where they both benefit despite the disparity in their other relationships. There are many people who would do anything for love.

It's just my opinion.

Another thing that I fail to mention in all of this is that neither Selene nor myself actually excel at monogamy. We were *both* uncomfortable with it in the years that we were monogamous. This doesn't mean that we don't love each other or that we aren't committed. Its just that we both believe ourselves to be capable of expressing affection, even love, to others without diminishing what we feel for each other and what we have together...which is enormously considerable. But, in the end...we're sluts, and we know it. :)

Keep in mind that, in my opening diatribe, I am talking about the inner turmoil first and foremost. Think of it with the shoe on the other foot for a moment - how many people who are completely committed to monogamy anguish over the mere desire to be with someone else? Despite being completely in love with their spouse and having no desire to terminate or substantially alter that relationship, they still yearn to be intimate with someone else. Well, I in the same way, I'm committed to polyamory...but it still causes me internal turmoil, and it will until we've been at it long enough for me to truly and well understand that it is not a path to the end of my primary relationship.

Only time can lend me that insight.

I have vacation from work in the third week of september, and I had planned to go to the KC renn faire. Maybe I will stop by and pay you a visit! :)

Good luck in everything though... it is hard sometimes.

I've read this thread many times over, and I cant think of one damn thing to say that *fits*.

But 'spode, you know I luv ya and am thinking of you.

I wish you and Selene the very best on this journey and get the fuck over the numbers hun ;)

All I can say again is that you are a better man than I. I can only hope this journey you have embarked on treats you well. It is the journey after all and not the destination that is important. Personally, I know that I could not handle it, but that is me. Stepping outside of my own boundaries to offer something, if anything, is difficult. I sat here for over 1/2 an hour reading and rereading - - - nothing seems fitting. Alas, I offer this view - quality versus quantity.

The numbers thang (You've a-had more-n me an' I don' like it!) does seem a ... well ... a rather unexpectedly macho response from you, Els. Don't take that the wrong way, I mean that you seem more balanced than most guys ...
Yours is not a path I could follow - but I wish you the strength to travel onwards on your journey.
And I think you've put this in the wrong section - it's not at all a Nothingland thread ...

Make it an overnight trip...we've got a spare futon for ya. About half the people I know are going to be in that RenFaire in some capacity, including one of my current paramours.

Hey, I'm chagrined and embarassed by these feelings, believe me. No one knows better than I how childish and ridiculous they are for someone who has willingly chosen this path. But I figure that, if the feelings are there, denying that they exist is almost certainly worse than trying to get them out. I think of them as vampirical little bastards...they'll die if I can shine the light of day on them.

I put this in Nothingland because I was feeling stupid and insignificant when I wrote it, and stupid and insignificant are the two chief qualifiers for subject matter in this forum. :D

:comfort:

Wow...its been quite some time since I updated this one.

I always feel as though I'm going to be perceived as boastful, or flamboyant, or indiscreet, or just plain weird - when I talk about this lifestyle of ours. But, as I truly believe that those of you here in The Cellar are, in a sense, my extended family, I feel compelled to share. The faint of heart amongst you should move on to the IOTD at this point.

When last I expounded on where things were at, I was a man whore (apparently), and not exactly a prime example of polyfamily. That's pretty much true, if indeed that is how any of you perceived things.

According to the posting dates, it was July of last year when last I felt compelled to expound on my lifestyle. Trust me when I say that it is probably better that I spared one and all from the details 'twixt now and then. I might not have been terribly objective. So...here's the Now, okay?

I just sent my wife to bed downstairs with her girlfriend, after a long talk about why said girlfriend shouldn't fear that my wife might become interested in someone else besides her or me. K, the girlfriend, is 27, a lifelong lesbian with a couple of heterosexual experiences under her belt, and toting a major intended investment with Selene as a long term partner in her emotional plans. Selene reciprocates this involvement, to the extent that they plan to be handfasted in August, wth K possibly moving in with us sometime before the year is out, prior to her intended entry into chiropractic college. Suffice to say that they are entirely taken with each other, with all the subtext and sexuality that is implicit therein. I have only recently come to grips with the notion that their longing and loving looks at each other are more cute and proper than they are threatening and unsettling. I am evolving.

Selene is as surprised by the notion that she has become seriously involved with a female (as opposed to a male, despite the fact that she has been a lifelong bisexual). Somehow, nothing that my wife does surprises me. I chalk that up to my being highly flexible, and the fact that I am always hoping that she can be happy somehow, even without my direct intervention or responsibility thereof. And, as luck would have it... happy, she is. Tomorrow, Selene is taking K down to meet her parents at the rural Missouri lake where they live. It should go without saying that, since her folks are fundy Baptists, the true nature of their relationship will be unelaborated. Nevertheless, for Selene, it is very similar to the first time I met her family, when I was ostensibly a friend of her immediate family, which was, at that time, her husband, her, and their kids...despite the fact that Selene, husband and myself, were all Poly.

"So Els", you ask. "What about *your* experiences?" Thanks for asking! I have been seeing a woman who I have known for about ten years, a lass I first met when a group of Pagans got together for socialization and dinner in the early days of my and Selene's becoming active in the Pagan community here in KC. We've always been friends, but it became more than that back last October, after a long series of halting flirtations, titillations, and conversations. "L" is my correspondent, and she is working her way out of a 9 year marriage (a marriage which Selene and I sanctified in a handfasting ceremony at Yule of '98) to a man who can only be described as a two year old, tantrum-prone child in a 48 year old body; an emotionally, spiritually and egregiously abusive fellow who seems to live to criticize and run down the intellect and actions of his Master's-degree level Montessori teacher soon to be ex-wife.

L is an artist, skilled in batik and sculpture, a gentle, timid faery soul, 4' 10" in stature, slight of build, and giant of heart. In the past two months, she announced her intention to leave her twit of a husband, got him to sign a waiver of mutual property rights, and bought a house...two blocks North of our place. She and I spent three weeks looking at suitable domiciles, many of which weren't quite so nearby. In the end, she paid $75k for a place that originally listed for $112.5k, and got a new roof thrown in for good measure.

Partly, she ended up as my very near neighbor because she was able to buy a really nice little place for about 65% of its market value, because it was a foreclosure. Partly, it was because she wanted to be near me, and near *us*, Selene and I, as part of her spiritual Family, a role we've played for nearly a decade. Partly, it was because, for the first time in her life, there were no kids to raise, no emotional debts to serve...no reason to *not* strike out and make her own way, as her own person, for her own reasons. Our arrangement is entirely sensible - I make no demands upon her, nor she upon me. She does what she wishes, when she wishes, as do I. There are no promises of exclusivity, no jealousies, no self-made pitfalls between us. As a result, the time we spend together is wonderful, earnest, true...and hot.

So...tomorrow night, I will spend the night with L at her new home, while my wife takes her new potential Life Partner down to meet the folks, and spend a couple of days checking in with her elderly Aunt who is a few months from meeting her maker. Sunday, we all come together in celebration as a Family Coven, and hold a public ritual to rejoice in the arrival of Oestara, the Vernal Equinox...the coming of Spring.

In our lives, all of us, there are elements of joy and pain, terror and anticipation, lust and love, tears and smiles. Is there a better summation of the reasons for being alive, for being a part of the lives of others? If so, I don't know what it is.

Hmmm.... bacon? ;)

Wow Els. You never cease to amaze me.
Just reading your post I felt my stomach dropping like a broken elevator - I was hurting on your behalf when in fact you are showing the best example of love and maturity and generosity of nature I have ever witnessed.

I'm too insecure to ever contemplate polygamy, which is a shame because it seems so much more honest than serial monogamy. But I admire you enormously for the way you live it and the fact you give us an insight into it.

Thanks.

Trust me, the ingrained notions of love and relationships that we all have do *not* prepare one for this lifestyle. Even as I am waxing poetic about the positives of Poly, I am still stricken by pangs of pain, fears of abandonment, little bits of dissatisfaction over a lack of time with Selene while she spends every possible free moment with K. But, when I reflect, I realize that those are almost always times that *I* have something else going on, or there is a class that she would be teaching or attending anyway, so I'm not *really* losing time I would have otherwise had.

I do seem to absorb, process and adapt rather quickly, though. As we three (S, K and myself) were sitting talking last night, I felt profoundly comfortable, in place, a part of a larger whole. I felt a sense of functional rightness with it all. I slept alone in our marital bed last night, but when I woke, Selene was right there to hug me and kiss me and tell me she'd miss me (nice rhyme, eh?) while they were out of town overnight. It was...well, *right*. It was the exact exchange of thoughts, love and energy that I needed, all tied up in a five minute slice of time.

Truly, the only way for this to work is to release the fears, and that is *so* very hard to accomplish. I do not have an especially high self image, but I do think I am confident and thoughtful. Usually, those attributes work pretty well in wading through this always interesting lifestyle of ours. Selene has her own fears, and we find ourselves constantly juggling our fears, our hopes, our reinforcements of love for each other while we expand our world and share of ourselves with our respective partners outside of our relationship.

I do *not* recommend this lifestyle to you, SG. I don't really recommend it to anyone, in fact. But, for a certain kind of person, or couple, it beats abject misery and eventual divorce by a large margin.

I am, however, in no way amazing, and never shall be. I'm just this guy, you know? The Zaphod Beeblebrox of my neighborhood, perhaps, but just a guy.

Bruce: Bacon? You could fry a slab on L's belly...and I intend to.

Bacon is the perfect reason for being alive. A side of L just makes it better.

More power to ya Elspode. I could deal more with an open marriage from a prurely sex notion then I could a real love exchange. I respect your choices. It is interesting to read your views through this time in your life. Thanks for sharing.

That is awesome Elspode. It is great that you have found someone too... I know it makes it easier for me to deal with my significant other being with another person when I have someone else too. And you express things so eloquently. I salute you. :grouphug:

:muse: