Revolting?
 

This exchange was from another thread.

Do you think there could or would be an armed revolt in America?
Would the revolters be criminals?
Would it be better to make change within our current system?

Yes.

Some always are, even disregarding the fact that armed revolt is probably criminal in and of itself.

Of course.

1. No, not under the current conditions. But under conditions where there was a total collapse of central government it might be possible. Hopefully we would revert to each state becoming the central government in the absence of a national government. So, I could see where we may have periods of anarchy which would require so form of continual personal defense.
2. No, political opportunists maybe, but I think they are one in the same. :D
3. Change in the current system is, has, and will be very very difficult. Until we have a strong third party rise up and become so popular as to overwhelm the current electoral process with mass elections, things will plod along as usual. A third party could also make slow in-roads to the current process but who knows.

I don't see anything bad enough to rise to that level now, but we can't predict what happens in the future. We've had two in our country, and people still have long memories of the last one. Even Yankees.

Collapse of the Federal Government? Not a chance.
We've had "Constitutional Crises" screaming headlines and "Capitol Hill" so distracted they couldn't function. We've had fiscal years not funded in time and turmoil galore. But you know what? Those millions of government employees just chugged along like the vast juggernaut that it is. All those people are the government, not the relative handful of highly visible politicians.

The Declaration of Independence addresses this in the second paragraph:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

If a revolt happened in America it would come from the lower class (that doesn't mean they are criminals).

It would be crushed within hours if it did happen.

Hours?
What are you basing that on?

Haha, it was an overexaggeration.

The point is that it wouldn't last long.

I remain unconvinced by your argument.

Do you really think that an armed revolution could last for over 6 months? There may be little groups that would survive but the main force would be destroyed.

The only way to fight without a slaughter would be using guerilla tactics and that will not win a revolution but only put the country under martial law.

Riots are different because police are not using weapons that can kill.

At what point does a riot become an insurrection? When does an insurrection become a revolution? What's the difference between a revolution and a civil war?

Better ask Robert E. Lee and George III on those last two.

Guerilla conflicts are pretty easy to sustain if they have any popular support. Watch Iraq. The opposition is just waiting for us to leave. They live there, all they need to do is wait. The Feds couldn't hold the cities if they went ballistic more than one at a time. Then there is the small problem of Rednecus Americanus, lose him and you are toast.

I doubt we're headed in that direction though,.. although the stock market did just pass 1927 for irrational exuberance...

I really think the US armed forces have their hands full in country with just a small fraction of the area and population of the US. I wonder why you think their job would be so much easier here.

They wouldn't get me to hold up a cardboard sign that says I fuck goats and camels.

Because they will have more forces here and the support for the revolution would be minimal.

Like I said before, the only revolt I can see happening in the United States anytime soon is a leftist revolution and it would not gain enough support to take over the government.

Minimal? Why? Wouldn't that depend on what the revolution was about?
What about getting the soldiers to shoot at their neighbors - don't you think that might be tough?

Because the American people have shown that do not like change if something does change, it is minimal.

Yes, shooting at American citizens would be a tough obstacle for the army but I don't believe that would allow a revolution to happen.

This is neither a new, nor an American, sentiment. This is exactly what they wrote in the Declaration of Independence, just before Queen Elizabeth II visited us in 1776:

Uh, Queen Elizabeth II?

We were safer when they were draftees. We were safer when they actually did have to shoot people instead of playing a video game that's connected to real weapons. There is real reasons to fear the military's move to autonomous or remote controled weapons systems, instructed by a guy with a mouse and screen.

Yeah, it makes sense that the people wouldn't revolt for a change - we're happy with (resigned to at least) the way things are. So, what if its the government making changes, changes the people don't like?

Yes. Don't you pay attention to the news:

Right over my head since I don't consider that crap news.

Last I heard people weren't happy with Bush's changes.

Two things about the American left- They really like the idea of government and the moment a Democratic President gets those same powers it will be all good. American rightists claim to be anti-gov but their reaction to this administration shows a love of powerful government as well. The urban riot examples are more like it, an explosion that is not part of the traditional political structure. I used to think the rural right might rise but as long as the gov is fascist they'll be good with it.

It'll probably be the poor. Just like the French and Russian revolutions.

I think most revolutionary movements would not be accepted by about hald of all American. Just like the Watts and LA riots, those whose interests are not served by the revolution would view the combatants as outlaws. As an example, if the government outlaws guns, only the pro-gun contingent will revolt, and they would be viewed as outlaws by everyone else. Please let's not drift into another gun thread arguement.

Bullshit. Go back and read how many said they didn't own a gun but strongly supported gun ownership along with all the constitutional guarantees.
I don't own a horse anymore, but I'd be very pissed off if the government tried to outlaw horses.

You missed the point - it's a fucking example. How about this. Remember all the pro-immigration demonstrations last year? How did you feel about those? Ready to take up weapons to support that cause?

Drift? You started the thread with it!

No matter how unlikely you consider an armed revolt to be - how could you possibly consider it so unlikely that it makes sense to disarm the populace? That's what I don't understand....

No, you missed the fucking point.
The point is, you can't see there are people that will support causes that don't affect them just because they believe in freedom. People that aren't so selfish that they say, well, that's not my problem, it doesn't affect me.

No, I won't support illegal aliens, but some Americans will, even though they aren't aliens themselves.
I will support horse owners, even though I'm am not one.

Just to let you know, the Martians are in full support. :rolleyes:

I'm gonna snap your ass with a wet towel, lady.

Just because the quote had "gun" in it, doesn't mean it's about guns. Are you so obsessed that you made a leap like that?

Please cite where I've suggested disarming the populace.

And there are people that won't. Thank you for proving my point.

How do you have an armed revolt if you're not armed? :nuts:

Proving your point? Are you nuts? Your statement was;
I said that is not so. There will be people who are not pro-gun but pro-freedom who will side with the rebels because the believe in freedom.
You can't even keep track of what your point is or you don't know how to express it. Either way, my statement was completely opposite the one you made.

Bombs and illegal guns.

If you were to actually revolt, using legal guns besides rifles and shotguns won't get you very far.

the thing is.. if there were an affront made the government that was so heinous that it would cause the general public to really rise up.. I'd more than likely go with 'em. anywhoo! I suppose it depends on what level of revolt there was to be, the 2nd gives us the right to bear arms, and from what I understand that was primarily due to the revolutionary war, as a 'just in case clause'.. however military technology (that which the government owns) vs. that which we (the general public owns) would make it a short open fight, however... as seen in iraq and afghanistan a protracted and intense revolution is well within the possibilities. but I personally am not picking up a gun and picking a fight until it's really needed.

(and in my opinion there have been some affronts that are tantamount to that. and I for one am offended that I and more people haven't stood up and said "hey! what the fuck is that! that's not my country! keep that shit up and I'll have something to say with lead.. and not from a pencil)

In this country we change stuff through elections. The time to worry is when they cancel the elections.

The problem is that we only have two parties that are basically the same in the larger picture and are controlled by corporations and the upper class. It would be nearly extremely hard for a socialist party to get any support if America did shift that way.

No worries: if it did shift that way, the parties would shift too.

Ok, for Jinx, let's all agree that this revolution does not have to be a revolution with guns - wouldn't want anyone else to misconstrue the premise. This revolt can be peaceful, non-violent, or using rock, pointy sticks, or bananas. Now that we've clarified that, let's get on with the POINT of the discussion.

BTW, that's a stretch if you're interpreting that to mean I suggested to "disarm the populace".:dunce:

Ok, Bruce, I concede. People will be divided into

Agree, join revolt
Agree, sit out
Agree, fight against revolt
Disagree, join revolt
Disagree, sit out
Disagree, fight against revolt
Don't care, join revolt
Don't care, sit out
Don't care, fight against revolt

Did I miss anything?

Most likely there would be people that join up because, even though they don't care about the particular bitch the group starting it has, they have there own grudge against the government.

I don't see the government making one move that could cause a revolution. But, if they keep pissing off this group and that group, until the vast majority is fed up, then one move could trigger it.

It's easier to stir shit up when you have a group with lots of gripes. That way instead of one person saying the government did this, everyone agrees, rally over..... you get a series of gripes, everyone agrees with each, and the emotions build with each gripe until the shit is well stirred. It's a big help when you're hiding in the woods, in the rain/snow, low on food and no place to plug in your contact lens warmer.

Very slowly if it ever does. I have become very skeptical of how far the parties are allowed to go without going down the drain.

Probably pretty far as long as we're all going down the drain together. When some are and some are not, going down the drain, resentment causes trouble.

The parties change slowly because the electorate changes slowly.

It was a general statement. Although you have mentioned that you think people should voluntarily disarm themselves, so I'm not sure why you're taking exception to what I said.

Because he goes to great lengths to plan a thread that will ultimately prove him right, so when it doesn't, he always gets pissy.

The revolution will be a failure... It'll last until late evening, then will be ruined when American Idol comes on and everyone goes home.

I've never watch American Idol. Too busy being revolting.

hmmm... so the key is to knock out the cable. Actually, tv is probably all that's holding the country together right now.

The 2000 election wasn't "cancelled", but many people feel it was "stolen". Shouldn't there have been more outrage?

Take out the TV and the internet, and all hell will break loose.

yes, there should have been outrage, personally I was waiting for someone to stand up and say 'hey! what the fuck?!?!'.. then again maybe that's the problem.. no one is willing to be that person.

I could not have been more outraged.:(

There was a process. It was followed. Nobody was outraged that the process wasn't followed, they were outraged at the result.

Turn the result around and they wouldn't be outraged = this thread isn't about them.

Outrage -> they posted in an internet forum and told their friends it was outrageous = not really the kind of meaningful change-producing outrage we are talking about.

heh... yeah. still sad though.. when there are riots over trains running on time in the world, yet we sit here and keep quiet. then again I suppose it boils down to the simple fact that we are pretty well off.. we don't generally have to worry about food and shelter.. gives a person time to worry about 'bigger' issues. personally I am thankful to have a job, food and a place to live.

Those with money and those with guns will survive. The rest will be victims.